Team for Argentina

[jngf]

On a further point from the match, Simmonds came on in last 10 minutes and put in what looked like 10 tackles which is a helluva work rate even for an impact sub. Hartley and Cole coasting, and whilst I’m prepared to accept Kruis is a competent lineout technician and scrummager, without Itoje to pack down with he is rather average imo and reminding me a bit too much of Borthwick for comfort, especially his lack of power and impact as a carrier. Either pick Launchbury and Lawes together or Kruis and Itoje together as our starting lock combo - the latter pairing is stronger as a unit (especially least in Kruis case) than they are as the sum of their individual parts.

[Timbo]

Back to serious- the pack lacked carriers, in fact the side did. Billy still remains way ahead of Hughes, despite a decent effort today.

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Have to simply disagree with this, Hughes scored the type of try in the loose that is way beyond the scope of what Billy could ever do from a sheer athleticism and pace perspective- it’s a bit like comparing Deano with Dallagio - two specialist 8s one relying on sheer physical presence and keeping it tight and one with a more dynamic, looser approach.

In my view that’s a stereotypical view of Billy that doesn’t tally with reality. What exactly was it about that finish, good as it was, that makes you think Billy couldn’t have done it?

[Mikey Brown]

Err. What try are you talking about? You can’t possibly mean Hughes’s try yesterday?

[Digby]

Have to simply disagree with this, Hughes scored the type of try in the loose that is way beyond the scope of what Billy could ever do from a sheer athleticism and pace perspective- it’s a bit like comparing Deano with Dallagio - two specialist 8s one relying on sheer physical presence and keeping it tight and one with a more dynamic, looser approach.

In my view that’s a stereotypical view of Billy that doesn’t tally with reality. What exactly was it about that finish, good as it was, that makes you think Billy couldn’t have done it?

Billy might have been a bit slower getting to the line, but I don't imagine defences would be queuing up to give Billy that time and space to attack isolated defenders, he's a big enough problem with no time and space vs grouped defenders

[Banquo]

Back to serious- the pack lacked carriers, in fact the side did. Billy still remains way ahead of Hughes, despite a decent effort today.

.

Have to simply disagree with this, Hughes scored the type of try in the loose that is way beyond the scope of what Billy could ever do from a sheer athleticism and pace perspective- it’s a bit like comparing Deano with Dallagio - two specialist 8s one relying on sheer physical presence and keeping it tight and one with a more dynamic, looser approach. Both are great in their own terms but I’m increasingly less inclined to put Billy ahead of the two to the extent you do.

carry on disagreeing. I agree they are different players( though slightly oddly, you wrote this 't'other day-I think an on form Morgan would be a great compromise between the all out direct physicality of Billy and Hughes?) Billy V would have been great to have yesterday, where go forward was so lacking, especially in traffic; plus its not all about the carrying. I'd pick Billy every time ahead of Hughes, and Hughes can't hold a candle against either Deano (who was highly skilled, and didn't just rely on physical presence, great rugby brain) or Dayglo, as you mention it!

[Digby]

Have to simply disagree with this, Hughes scored the type of try in the loose that is way beyond the scope of what Billy could ever do from a sheer athleticism and pace perspective- it’s a bit like comparing Deano with Dallagio - two specialist 8s one relying on sheer physical presence and keeping it tight and one with a more dynamic, looser approach. Both are great in their own terms but I’m increasingly less inclined to put Billy ahead of the two to the extent you do.

carry on disagreeing. I agree they are different players( though slightly oddly, you wrote this 't'other day-I think an on form Morgan would be a great compromise between the all out direct physicality of Billy and Hughes?) Billy V would have been great to have yesterday, where go forward was so lacking, especially in traffic; plus its not all about the carrying. I'd pick Billy every time ahead of Hughes, and Hughes can't hold a candle against either Deano (who was highly skilled, and didn't just rely on physical presence, great rugby brain) or Dayglo, as you mention it!

Right now I'm not sold on Hughes, though he's an interesting work in progress. I'd still have Corry ahead of him, Teague too, Hughes is likely ahead of Easter though.

And if we stay with some more limited support players in the tight five then there remains a chance we'll pair Hughes and Billy V

[Puja]

On a further point from the match, Simmonds came on in last 10 minutes and put in what looked like 10 tackles which is a helluva work rate even for an impact sub. Hartley and Cole coasting, and whilst I’m prepared to accept Kruis is a competent lineout technician and scrummager, without Itoje to pack down with he is rather average imo and reminding me a bit too much of Borthwick for comfort, especially his lack of power and impact as a carrier. Either pick Launchbury and Lawes together or Kruis and Itoje together as our starting lock combo - the latter pairing is stronger as a unit (especially least in Kruis case) than they are as the sum of their individual parts.

Those figures are heavily skewed by the fact that Argentina had the ball for 9 of those 10 minutes and spent their time mostly attacking around the corner. Granted, it's still a good effort to get up and down to make those 10 tackles, but it's nowhere near as impressive as the stats would have you believe.

Puja

[Raggs]

Somewhere around 25%+ of Englands tackles came in the last 10 minutes of the game.

[Mikey Brown]

Slade's contributions, both good and bad, for some reason.



I must say despite it going to the TMO I don't really trust Farrell to make that pass for Roko's try. Though I trust Slade a whole lot less now too based on the Hughes one.

[Timbo]

I would stick with Slade for the whole Autumn. He’s way better than that performance and I do think he’s got the all round quality to be a top drawer international.

[Raggs]

He had a lot of issues in Argentina though, this isn't a one off thing.

[Puja]

Slade's contributions, both good and bad, for some reason.



I must say despite it going to the TMO I don't really trust Farrell to make that pass for Roko's try. Though I trust Slade a whole lot less now too based on the Hughes one.

What a strikingly useful video! Can we have one for every player?

He did actually do a lot more solid work than I realised, although I can only imagine the reception that Fazlet would get on here if he were to throw two passes to touch and aimlessly kick to the full-back when we had an overlap.

The pass to Roko seemed like an odd one, considering that a simple short pass to Robshaw would've seen him score as the defence had already drifted onto Roko. No need to make the difficult misspass at all.

Puja

[Puja]

I would stick with Slade for the whole Autumn. He’s way better than that performance and I do think he’s got the all round quality to be a top drawer international.

I'd give him the Australia match. We need to know if he can play there at international level and we'll learn little from bringing Fazlet back. Give him a chance to play in the same backline and show he can do it at this level - if he can, keep him for the whole series.

A repeat performance in the first half next week should see the shepherd's crook for the rest of the autumn though.

Puja

[Banquo]

I would stick with Slade for the whole Autumn. He’s way better than that performance and I do think he’s got the all round quality to be a top drawer international.

I'd give him the Australia match. We need to know if he can play there at international level and we'll learn little from bringing Fazlet back. Give him a chance to play in the same backline and show he can do it at this level - if he can, keep him for the whole series.

A repeat performance in the first half next week should see the shepherd's crook for the rest of the autumn though.

Puja

a la Henry Paul....

I agree, he should be given another go at 12, and hope somehow that we manage to generate some quick ball, and sort out Watson's timing of his running. He and Ford will have some big fckrs running at them.

[Mikey Brown]

I'm not sure Robshaw was ever getting through there with the cover. Also think he did really well to keep the continuity a few times when there were loose balls or crap passes. But mainly he just didn't look assured of his role. I'd hope given another shot he could be more assertive, though the screen of carriers in the 12 channel didn't seem particularly effective yesterday and we rely on that very heavily to get the ball through the hands.

I do think it's at least noticeable on a rewatch just now that the defenders are having to pay attention to him when he's a dummy runner. That's damning with faint praise I know but we've been desperately short of any threat cutting back against Ford.

[Digby]

So we need to move the ball away from contact then, or we need Mako, Lawes and Hughes to be making big dents on the carry. It's a decent enough squad given what's gone before and players missing

Yep, George starting would give better balance in the loose, and I think Launchbury a better carrier than Kruis. Wish BV was fit.

Broadly I'd have wanted George and a carrier at 3, or another carrier at either 6 or 7. If we had extra carrying options in the 2 and 3 shirt it's make more sense to me to them have 2 flankers whose game is better suited to supporting a team than carrying a team. And we've still no carrying options at 12 or 13 to bail the team out of trouble, Slade might be doing more than he did but it's not the stuff of legend at test level

Giving it the full Mells treatment, and then going on to make the point what happened Vs the Argies was somewhat predictable. The side was hardly as bad as the first one Burt picked against Scotland, but it's not a million miles from needing the other team to drop lots of high balls to make the side function of have structural problems in how they defend as did Scotland in the last 6N.