No ban for Marler's elbow drop

[Son of Mathonwy]

Personally feel that the "striking with the elbow" thing is a load of guff. How many times do props of all nationalities go in like that at virtually every ruck?
As for the comment, it would be interesting to hear/see the transcript of what Lee has said about his "Gypsy" heritage.

What relevance does what Lee has said about his "Gypsy" heritage have?

Agreed. Whether or not Lee is or was offended is not the point.

[oldbackrow]

Personally feel that the "striking with the elbow" thing is a load of guff. How many times do props of all nationalities go in like that at virtually every ruck?
As for the comment, it would be interesting to hear/see the transcript of what Lee has said about his "Gypsy" heritage.

What relevance does what Lee has said about his "Gypsy" heritage have?

Also with regards to the elbow, it's more the inconsistency that people get pissed off about. Henson got 13 weeks? originally for imo a lesser offence.

Breaking someones nose and then going to kick their head when they are on the floor is a lesser offence!!! We all get pissedoff with the inconsistencies

[cadofyddol]

Personally feel that the "striking with the elbow" thing is a load of guff. How many times do props of all nationalities go in like that at virtually every ruck?
As for the comment, it would be interesting to hear/see the transcript of what Lee has said about his "Gypsy" heritage.

What relevance does what Lee has said about his "Gypsy" heritage have?

Also with regards to the elbow, it's more the inconsistency that people get pissed off about. Henson got 13 weeks? originally for imo a lesser offence.

Breaking someones nose and then going to kick their head when they are on the floor is a lesser offence!!! We all get pissedoff with the inconsistencies

I'd forgotten about the kick to be honest, so that is a fair point. Although I'm not convinced that he was trying to kick him in the head.

Are you going to answer the first question about what relevance what Lee said has?

[oldbackrow]

I'd forgotten about the kick to be honest, so that is a fair point. Although I'm not convinced that he was trying to kick him in the head.

Are you going to answer the first question about what relevance what Lee said has?

Where then?

I'm am genuinely interested in what Lee has said about his heritage and whether, like some, calls himself a Gypsy boy.

A lot of people are taking what I consider to be undue umbrage on behalf of him and the traveller community (bearing in mind I worked very closely with families on the sites in Lincolnshire and my Afro Caribbean heritage) for something which was apologised for almost immediately.

[cadofyddol]

I'd forgotten about the kick to be honest, so that is a fair point. Although I'm not convinced that he was trying to kick him in the head.

Are you going to answer the first question about what relevance what Lee said has?

Where then?

I'm am genuinely interested in what Lee has said about his heritage and whether, like some, calls himself a Gypsy boy.

A lot of people are taking what I consider to be undue umbrage on behalf of him and the traveller community (bearing in mind I worked very closely with families on the sites in Lincolnshire and my Afro Caribbean heritage) for something which was apologised for almost immediately.

This is only my opinion and I appreciate you and many others may disagree, but to me it looks like Moreno grabs onto Henson as he falls and Henson kicks out to dislodge his grip on him. If you look at the way he kicks it's more of a flick than a proper kick done in the heat of the moment to hurt.

I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting your post but are you saying that if Lee refers to himself as a Gypsy Boy then it's OK to call him that?
Would the same apply if a black player referred to himself as a 'Nigga' to his friends?

Also from my dealings with Travellers or Gypsies I have found that the majority wouldn't make an issue of a slur as the tend not to like dealing with authorities. If it annoyed them that much they would deal with it in their own way.

I think you're misinterpreting the umbrage too, I'm certainly not taking it on behalf of the Gypsy community. My issue is that a professional sportsman playing at the highest level has racially abused someone on a rugby pitch which has been picked up on a microphone and broadcast nationally.
However his national coach and union have dismissed it as banter as have several media outlets and the competition's governing body has deemed it unworthy of sanction. Do I think it would have been the same outcome if it had of been a black player getting abused. Hell no!!

I also struggle to believe that Marler apologised without any prompting from his management team. I know a few people who have had various dealings with Marler and pretty much all of them say he is a knob. For him to say what he did and then wait until half time to apologise rather than at the next stoppage in play suggests to me that he was told to apologise in no uncertain terms to mitigate the damage. For me that is even more damning of the RFU, as they deemed it serious enough to insist he apologise but were prepared to dismiss it to the media. They have emerged with zero credit from this situation, where they could have still spun the apology story and defended him as in heat of the moment, but banned him for a couple of games saying that they were fully behind kicking racism out of sport.

Swing low sweat chariot indeed!!

[Peat]

Personally feel that the "striking with the elbow" thing is a load of guff. How many times do props of all nationalities go in like that at virtually every ruck?
As for the comment, it would be interesting to hear/see the transcript of what Lee has said about his "Gypsy" heritage.

Not many these days?

The camera catches most things. There's always someone willing to make a gif and stick it online if they feel an opposition player got away with something. The ref and citing committee might not get it, but there'll be a fan complaining about it after the game. And, yeah, not much of that happening.

Also, what Cadofyddol just said.

[Nightynight]

I'd forgotten about the kick to be honest, so that is a fair point. Although I'm not convinced that he was trying to kick him in the head.

Are you going to answer the first question about what relevance what Lee said has?

Where then?

I'm am genuinely interested in what Lee has said about his heritage and whether, like some, calls himself a Gypsy boy.

A lot of people are taking what I consider to be undue umbrage on behalf of him and the traveller community (bearing in mind I worked very closely with families on the sites in Lincolnshire and my Afro Caribbean heritage) for something which was apologised for almost immediately.

This is only my opinion and I appreciate you and many others may disagree, but to me it looks like Moreno grabs onto Henson as he falls and Henson kicks out to dislodge his grip on him. If you look at the way he kicks it's more of a flick than a proper kick done in the heat of the moment to hurt.

I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting your post but are you saying that if Lee refers to himself as a Gypsy Boy then it's OK to call him that?
Would the same apply if a black player referred to himself as a 'Nigga' to his friends?

Also from my dealings with Travellers or Gypsies I have found that the majority wouldn't make an issue of a slur as the tend not to like dealing with authorities. If it annoyed them that much they would deal with it in their own way.

I think you're misinterpreting the umbrage too, I'm certainly not taking it on behalf of the Gypsy community. My issue is that a professional sportsman playing at the highest level has racially abused someone on a rugby pitch which has been picked up on a microphone and broadcast nationally.
However his national coach and union have dismissed it as banter as have several media outlets and the competition's governing body has deemed it unworthy of sanction. Do I think it would have been the same outcome if it had of been a black player getting abused. Hell no!!

I also struggle to believe that Marler apologised without any prompting from his management team. I know a few people who have had various dealings with Marler and pretty much all of them say he is a knob. For him to say what he did and then wait until half time to apologise rather than at the next stoppage in play suggests to me that he was told to apologise in no uncertain terms to mitigate the damage. For me that is even more damning of the RFU, as they deemed it serious enough to insist he apologise but were prepared to dismiss it to the media. They have emerged with zero credit from this situation, where they could have still spun the apology story and defended him as in heat of the moment, but banned him for a couple of games saying that they were fully behind kicking racism out of sport.

Swing low sweat chariot indeed!!

that's got more to do with fear of being asked to pay some income tax!

The continuation of this subject has started to look more like sour grapes than anything else

[cadofyddol]

Where then?

I'm am genuinely interested in what Lee has said about his heritage and whether, like some, calls himself a Gypsy boy.

A lot of people are taking what I consider to be undue umbrage on behalf of him and the traveller community (bearing in mind I worked very closely with families on the sites in Lincolnshire and my Afro Caribbean heritage) for something which was apologised for almost immediately.

This is only my opinion and I appreciate you and many others may disagree, but to me it looks like Moreno grabs onto Henson as he falls and Henson kicks out to dislodge his grip on him. If you look at the way he kicks it's more of a flick than a proper kick done in the heat of the moment to hurt.

I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting your post but are you saying that if Lee refers to himself as a Gypsy Boy then it's OK to call him that?
Would the same apply if a black player referred to himself as a 'Nigga' to his friends?

Also from my dealings with Travellers or Gypsies I have found that the majority wouldn't make an issue of a slur as the tend not to like dealing with authorities. If it annoyed them that much they would deal with it in their own way.

I think you're misinterpreting the umbrage too, I'm certainly not taking it on behalf of the Gypsy community. My issue is that a professional sportsman playing at the highest level has racially abused someone on a rugby pitch which has been picked up on a microphone and broadcast nationally.
However his national coach and union have dismissed it as banter as have several media outlets and the competition's governing body has deemed it unworthy of sanction. Do I think it would have been the same outcome if it had of been a black player getting abused. Hell no!!

I also struggle to believe that Marler apologised without any prompting from his management team. I know a few people who have had various dealings with Marler and pretty much all of them say he is a knob. For him to say what he did and then wait until half time to apologise rather than at the next stoppage in play suggests to me that he was told to apologise in no uncertain terms to mitigate the damage. For me that is even more damning of the RFU, as they deemed it serious enough to insist he apologise but were prepared to dismiss it to the media. They have emerged with zero credit from this situation, where they could have still spun the apology story and defended him as in heat of the moment, but banned him for a couple of games saying that they were fully behind kicking racism out of sport.

Swing low sweat chariot indeed!!

that's got more to do with fear of being asked to pay some income tax!

The continuation of this subject has started to look more like sour grapes than anything else

If it was sour grapes people would still be going on about the numerous bull shit decisions Joubert did and didn't call. Much like all the English fans and the management team did after the 30-3 trouncing in Cardiff with Steve Walsh. How long did it take for the Rowntree to stop whingeing about it, let alone the fans? Credit to Gatland and Co for taking it on the chin and at least they were in sight by the end of the game.

There's plenty of English people who are still going on about this too, as they are prepared to stand up to the incompetence and corruption that is blighting the management of the game.
What's incredulous is the number of English people who think it should be brushed under the carpet.
I'd like to think they'd be outraged if the same sort of comments would have been directed at one of their black players, but now I'm not so sure.

[Nightynight]

There has been a review of the situation and warning given, the player apologised the other involved player accepted it. move on, if nothing had been done then I would understand the complaints but it was dealt with, just because you don't like the result just sounds like sour grapes

[cadofyddol]

There has been a review of the situation and warning given, the player apologised the other involved player accepted it. move on, if nothing had been done then I would understand the complaints but it was dealt with, just because you don't like the result just sounds like sour grapes

The minimum sanction for racial abuse is 4 weeks. Marler got zero. For the other hearings the committee was named, but for the racial abuse it has remained secret. The whole thing is a sham!
Had World Rugby not got involved due to being unhappy with the outcome, then I would have moved on and accepted it as yet another joke decision by the incompetent blazers that are spoiling Rugby Union. However the incident is not over, World Rugby has seen to that. So until the the matter is closed I will continue to point out that Six Nations rugby is either incompetent or corrupt.

If this had of happened during a football match, it would have been taken a lot more seriously and dealt with appropriately. There are still too many 'old farts' involved in Rugby and the sooner they move on the better.

[Sandydragon]

Exactly. Racial abuse is a recognised transgression and has a minimum penalty. What Marler said was racist. Yet no punishment and no details of how the incident was investigated.

In modern sport, it's just not good enough not to be able to justify that decision in public. Whilst this was a spat between two players, it wasn't a private disagreement thanks to the ref mike. This is no longer 1973 and if someone makes a racist comment in the workplace it must be dealt with. 6 Nations committee are trying to bury their heads in the sand, thankfully world rugby have taken an interest. At the very least, the decision making process behind the lack of action needs to be properly understood.

[Sandydragon]

It would be helpful if world rugby dealt with this quickly,the longer this drags on the more incompetent rugby authorities look.

[UKHamlet]

Personally feel that the "striking with the elbow" thing is a load of guff. How many times do props of all nationalities go in like that at virtually every ruck?
As for the comment, it would be interesting to hear/see the transcript of what Lee has said about his "Gypsy" heritage.

What relevance does what Lee has said about his "Gypsy" heritage have?

Also with regards to the elbow, it's more the inconsistency that people get pissed off about. Henson got 13 weeks? originally for imo a lesser offence.

Breaking someones nose and then going to kick their head when they are on the floor is a lesser offence!!! We all get pissedoff with the inconsistencies

Given that Henson was attacked from behind and reacted to it, I think the penalty was completely disproportionate.

[WaspInWales]

What relevance does what Lee has said about his "Gypsy" heritage have?

Also with regards to the elbow, it's more the inconsistency that people get pissed off about. Henson got 13 weeks? originally for imo a lesser offence.

Breaking someones nose and then going to kick their head when they are on the floor is a lesser offence!!! We all get pissedoff with the inconsistencies

Given that Henson was attacked from behind and reacted to it, I think the penalty was completely disproportionate.

Bollocks. What is disproportionate is rugby's inability to sanction offences across the board.

Henson's elbow and kick were cheap shots that were duly dealt with. Unfortunately, repeated failings by rugby's governing bodies have left the citings procedure nothing more than a lottery.

It's about time we had a no-nonsense approach that leaves no player, regardless of what domestic team or nation they represent under no illusion that should they be a cwnt, they will be dealt with.

[Nightynight]

There has been a review of the situation and warning given, the player apologised the other involved player accepted it. move on, if nothing had been done then I would understand the complaints but it was dealt with, just because you don't like the result just sounds like sour grapes

The minimum sanction for racial abuse is 4 weeks. Marler got zero. For the other hearings the committee was named, but for the racial abuse it has remained secret. The whole thing is a sham!
Had World Rugby not got involved due to being unhappy with the outcome, then I would have moved on and accepted it as yet another joke decision by the incompetent blazers that are spoiling Rugby Union. However the incident is not over, World Rugby has seen to that. So until the the matter is closed I will continue to point out that Six Nations rugby is either incompetent or corrupt.

If this had of happened during a football match, it would have been taken a lot more seriously and dealt with appropriately. There are still too many 'old farts' involved in Rugby and the sooner they move on the better.

That was the findings of the panel, I'm sure these reviews are documented. Why don't you request the minutes of the hearing instead of making assumptions.

http://www.worldrugby.org/news/146718

It seems world rugby are at least following due process before condemning the man take a leaf out of their book

[Peat]

There's plenty of English people who are still going on about this too, as they are prepared to stand up to the incompetence and corruption that is blighting the management of the game.
What's incredulous is the number of English people who think it should be brushed under the carpet.
I'd like to think they'd be outraged if the same sort of comments would have been directed at one of their black players, but now I'm not so sure.

Plus World Rugby. World Rugby aren't involved due to sour grapes.

[Nightynight]

There's plenty of English people who are still going on about this too, as they are prepared to stand up to the incompetence and corruption that is blighting the management of the game.
What's incredulous is the number of English people who think it should be brushed under the carpet.
I'd like to think they'd be outraged if the same sort of comments would have been directed at one of their black players, but now I'm not so sure.

Plus World Rugby. World Rugby aren't involved due to sour grapes.

What if they uphold the previous decision or ban Marler from internationals matches, not sure what they can do, a 4 week ban now?

[Digby]

There's plenty of English people who are still going on about this too, as they are prepared to stand up to the incompetence and corruption that is blighting the management of the game. What's incredulous is the number of English people who think it should be brushed under the carpet.
I'd like to think they'd be outraged if the same sort of comments would have been directed at one of their black players, but now I'm not so sure.

The problem I have with treating what's happened as racism is it seems absurd to me that gypsies are recognised as a race, and so my reaction to what Marler has done is very different to what it would be for, as I'd term it, an actual racist incident. I would recognise WR have a problem that some idiot has recognised the gypsies as a race in law. If they're going to ban Marler then they need to be consistent, and apply bans to anyone like Evans who's used the same term to describe the same player.

I also think WR are getting a little carried away with going after offensive things said on the pitch. So this is either going to be a very odd isolated referral or they're going to have thousands of reviews to undertake every week.

[Nightynight]

"If they're going to ban Marler then they need to be consistent, and apply bans to anyone like Evans who's used the same term to describe the same player."


End of.

[Digby]

"If they're going to ban Marler then they need to be consistent, and apply bans to anyone like Evans who's used the same term to describe the same player."


End of.

I think they'd also need to ban anyone who's described Marler in the way COS is suggesting, and probably a huge number more. If they genuinely want to remove offensive language towards other players, or officials , or crowd, and perhaps even take colourful metaphors from the game then fair enough, I'm not that bothered about it but whatever, I've no real objection to such aim - just right now I suspect this is akin to a scrum half on a team lading by 17+ being pinged for a feed into the scrum in the 78th minute

[Nightynight]

my general experience of racism, it is normally highly subjective at times and often if not always undermined by hypocrisy at some point by the 'offended' party.

[cadofyddol]

There's plenty of English people who are still going on about this too, as they are prepared to stand up to the incompetence and corruption that is blighting the management of the game.
What's incredulous is the number of English people who think it should be brushed under the carpet.
I'd like to think they'd be outraged if the same sort of comments would have been directed at one of their black players, but now I'm not so sure.

Plus World Rugby. World Rugby aren't involved due to sour grapes.

What if they uphold the previous decision or ban Marler from internationals matches, not sure what they can do, a 4 week ban now?

That's their prerogative, and I'll let the issue go. Seeing as that they have got involved, I would be shocked if they then said we are happy with the outcome. But then stranger things have happened with World Rugby.

[cadofyddol]

Breaking someones nose and then going to kick their head when they are on the floor is a lesser offence!!! We all get pissedoff with the inconsistencies

Given that Henson was attacked from behind and reacted to it, I think the penalty was completely disproportionate.

Bollocks. What is disproportionate is rugby's inability to sanction offences across the board.

Henson's elbow and kick were cheap shots that were duly dealt with. Unfortunately, repeated failings by rugby's governing bodies have left the citings procedure nothing more than a lottery.

It's about time we had a no-nonsense approach that leaves no player, regardless of what domestic team or nation they represent under no illusion that should they be a cwnt, they will be dealt with.

What's your definition of a cheap shot?

For me Moreno's shot at Henson is cheap, as Henson has his back turned. Henson reacting and landing before Moreno does, isn't imo.

[canta_brian]

"If they're going to ban Marler then they need to be consistent, and apply bans to anyone like Evans who's used the same term to describe the same player."


End of.

I love it when people say "End of." As declaring an argument over somehow makes your point the authorative one.

my general experience of racism, it is normally highly subjective at times and often if not always undermined by hypocrisy at some point by the 'offended' party.

Your experience of racism being?

From your posts it would seem likely that your experience is likely to be of giving rather than receiving racial abuse.

[cadofyddol]

There's plenty of English people who are still going on about this too, as they are prepared to stand up to the incompetence and corruption that is blighting the management of the game. What's incredulous is the number of English people who think it should be brushed under the carpet.
I'd like to think they'd be outraged if the same sort of comments would have been directed at one of their black players, but now I'm not so sure.

The problem I have with treating what's happened as racism is it seems absurd to me that gypsies are recognised as a race, and so my reaction to what Marler has done is very different to what it would be for, as I'd term it, an actual racist incident. I would recognise WR have a problem that some idiot has recognised the gypsies as a race in law. If they're going to ban Marler then they need to be consistent, and apply bans to anyone like Evans who's used the same term to describe the same player.

I also think WR are getting a little carried away with going after offensive things said on the pitch. So this is either going to be a very odd isolated referral or they're going to have thousands of reviews to undertake every week.

Your opinion in the eyes of the law is irrelevant!

I find it a bit worrying that as you don't think that Travellers are a race you think it's OK to 'racially' abuse them. The law is quite clear.

Out of interest why do you find it absurd that gypsies are considered a race?

Your attitude is reminiscent of when black people were considered second class citizens by society and it was acceptable to treat them as such. When people started standing up for black people's rights, people like you were aghast that these people should be given the same rights and respect as 'white' people.
Society today as a majority still finds it acceptable to treat Travellers and Gypsies negatively, which is why people like you think it'd acceptable to racially abuse them.

I guess I must have missed something, but which Evans said what?

World Rugby aren't getting carried away, they are clamping down on racist abuse. Whether you think it's racist or not is irrelevant, in the eyes of the law it is. Non racist abuse and sledging is still acceptable and won't be investigated, so hopefully if Marler gets punished accordingly it will send the message out that racist abuse is not acceptable and if anything reduce the number of reviews that it has to carry out.

What I find dumbfounding is that you have admitted that you would have a different reaction if it was a black player that had of been abused and you have acknowledged that 'some idiot' has recognised the Gypsies as a race in law but you can't put 2 + 2 together. It would be a start if you could at least use a bit of logic to acknowledge that World Rugby has to sanction Marler even if your racist views don't agree with it.