Are the European Competions worth entering?

[Mellsblue]

I’d say it is black and white. The best way to improve is by playing with and against better players. Bath’s players and coaches will have learnt more last night than if they’d ground out a win against Wuss or given LI a shellacking.

You say you want ‘less fixtures of a higher standard‘, and I’d agree, but you won’t achieve that by dropping matches against Leinster, Munster, Clermont etc and having a domestic cup comp. I say this as someone who would love a domestic cup comp.

I agree, largely, but where I have reservations is that we are talking about Bath with a foreign coach and, what, 2 or 3 England regulars and a couple more squad players? Even one of the commentators quipped that Bath had started nearly as many Welshmen as Scarlets.

An elite European competition is all well and good (e.g. the top 16 teams on a straight KO basis) for long-term improvement but, purely from an English selfish viewpoint, I don't think the current set-up is achieving the principle aims that I would set out. It is a good money-maker and an effective vehicle for those national unions with regions. The later stages have more merit, IMO. As things stand, I see the set-up as of limited overall benefit, particularly when the knackering of our players is added in.

Well, you're arguing two separate points there. Bath have a foreign coach and 2-3 England regulars, but that won't be solved by having them play in a domestic cup against Worcester - there'd still be the 2-3 England regulars, but just against worse opposition and with less fresh input from foreign challenges.

Puja

What Puja said.

[Tom Moore]

*****Warning*****

I accept that this opinion is likely to be unpopular and unworkable.

I would prefer it if we entered 4 or 5 teams (dependent on numbers) composed solely of English qualified players, thereby giving the opportunity for EQP's to improve.

Run by the RFU, coaches appointed by the RFU, compensation paid to the clubs for loss of earnings, played at club grounds with cheaper tickets, squad composition based on Eddie and his merry men picking in conjunction with the appointed coaches.

[16th man]

Just as a quick exercise on EQP's playing in the ERC :- Wasps and Sarries line ups in the quarters last year (From which you could put together pretty handy 15):

15 Kurtley Beale
14 Christian Wade
13 Elliot Daly
12 Jimmy Gopperth
11 Willie Le Roux
10 Danny Cipriani
9 Dan Robson

1 Matt Mullan
2 Tommy Taylor
3 Jake Cooper-Woolley
4 Joe Launchbury (capt)
5 Kearnan Myall
6 James Haskell
7 Thomas Young
8 Nathan Hughes

16 Ashley Johnson
17 Simon McIntyre
18 Marty Moore
19 Matt Symons
20 Alex Rieder
21 Joe Simpso
22 Alapati Leiua
23 Josh Bassett


15 Alex Goode
14 Chris Ashton
13 Marcelo Bosch
12 Brad Barritt (capt)
11 Sean Maitland
10 Owen Farrell
9 Richard Wigglesworth

1 Mako Vunipola
2 Jamie George
3 Juan Figallo
4 Maro Itoje
5 Jim Hamilton
6 Michael Rhodes
7 Jackson Wray
8 Billy Vunipola

16 Schalk Brits
17 Titi Lamositele
18 Vincent Koch
19 Kelly Brown
20 Joel Conlon
21 Neil de Kock
22 Alex Lozowski
23 Duncan Taylor

[Tom Moore]

More per team than I thought there would be, maybe we'd be able to do 6, which would be very handy in terms of exposure.

[Which Tyler]

Hang on, areBath being criticised for only having 2-3 England regulars in their team last night? Is it really being said that they won't have learned anything because they lost - badly?

I'd agree that I want greater concentration of English talent into fewer teams, but you do that by reducing the number of English teams to spread that talent around, not by scratching matches against high quality opponents. Whilst we still have 22 teams in the league, then the talent is going to spread around 10-ish of them.
Even if you thing they should all be in the Champ cup, that's spreading 30-odd players over 6 teams, so 5 each. Yesterday Bath fielded 6 of that 30, whilst another 1-2 are injured. So, that puts the ahead of the game, not behind it in terms of EPS standard players.

Quite honestly, even though only 6 teams get to play in the top tier, against the likes of Clermont, Scarlets, Glasgow, Munster etc, the less-good teams also get to play against teams who are better than them (though the French tend not to give a damn about the challenge cup, we could also use it as an academy development competition if we so chose). All 12 get to play against teams who play a different way, and on whom they've done far less research, and are more having to think on the hood and alter what they're doing. This is a good thing.

I want to concentrate talent into fewer teams (6-8), and play fewer matches of higher quality to reduce player fatigue and fan fatigue. We can do that by reducing the Premiership to 8-10 teams and ditching then easier matches domestically, and changing the AWC so that the pressure increases, but that all teams use it approximately equally as a development competition (as opposed to guaranteeding yourself a place in the final by being the only club to play their first XV) - so a limit on experience of the players involved, bring in lower quality (Championship) teams for variety and pressure (giant slaying) and a longer knock-out stage.
This solution also gives us fewer matches that need to be played outside of IRB9, and more matches where they're unaffected by IRB9 - bonus.

Reducing the opportunity of players and clubs to play against higher quality opponents (or similar quality with different game-plan) at higher pressure is really not the way to increase the players' experience of playing against higher quality, different game-plan and higher pressure matches.

If 3 England regulars is too few, then you want fewer than 7 English teams, again though, not fewer matches against high quality teams they don't usually play against and under high pressure.

As for the number of EQP, were still bound by European employment law I'm afraid; and whilst I'd like fewer non-EQPs in the league, I don't think any team is taking the piss anymore, and it would be illegal to enforce such a rule, so I don't give it much thought any more. I suspect that most teams could put out a fully EQP match-day 23 without needing anyone out of position, which is a huge change on 5-10 years ago when plenty could have put out a 23 of entirely non-EQP, or we were applauding teams for managing 50% EQP on match-day.

[Which Tyler]

I agree, largely, but where I have reservations is that we are talking about Bath with a foreign coach and, what, 2 or 3 England regulars and a couple more squad players? Even one of the commentators quipped that Bath had started nearly as many Welshmen as Scarlets.

Wow, someone made a funny, it must be true.
Didn't Bath play 3 Welshmen yesterday? Alongside the 3 England starters, 4 other training squad players, 7 further Englishmen and 1 EQP foriegner.

Quite honestly, I'd rather reduce the foriegner journeymen than the foriegner international players anyway. The likes of Mercer will learn an absolute tonne from training with Faletau and Louw, equally Ewell's will learn a thing or two from Charteris, Clark from Tapuai, Cook from Fotuali'i, Obano from Paz (who he currently keeps on the bench) etc etc.
From Bath, it's the likes of Van Vuuren, Wilson and Wilson who add only squad depth that I'd rather we replaced with similar level Englishmen. Interestingly, all three of those were brought in at a time when there weren't any Englishmen out of contract and ready to come.

[Oakboy]

I agree, largely, but where I have reservations is that we are talking about Bath with a foreign coach and, what, 2 or 3 England regulars and a couple more squad players? Even one of the commentators quipped that Bath had started nearly as many Welshmen as Scarlets.

Wow, someone made a funny, it must be true.
Didn't Bath play 3 Welshmen yesterday? Alongside the 3 England starters, 4 other training squad players, 7 further Englishmen and 1 EQP foriegner.

Quite honestly, I'd rather reduce the foriegner journeymen than the foriegner international players anyway. The likes of Mercer will learn an absolute tonne from training with Faletau and Louw, equally Ewell's will learn a thing or two from Charteris, Clark from Tapuai, Cook from Fotuali'i, Obano from Paz (who he currently keeps on the bench) etc etc.
From Bath, it's the likes of Van Vuuren, Wilson and Wilson who add only squad depth that I'd rather we replaced with similar level Englishmen. Interestingly, all three of those were brought in at a time when there weren't any Englishmen out of contract and ready to come.

The commentator's remark was largely aimed st the Scarlets (in that they had a fair number of non-Welsh)! It was reasonable patter that nobody needed to take literally or seriously.

[Puja]

*****Warning*****

I accept that this opinion is likely to be unpopular and unworkable.

I would prefer it if we entered 4 or 5 teams (dependent on numbers) composed solely of English qualified players, thereby giving the opportunity for EQP's to improve.

Run by the RFU, coaches appointed by the RFU, compensation paid to the clubs for loss of earnings, played at club grounds with cheaper tickets, squad composition based on Eddie and his merry men picking in conjunction with the appointed coaches.

See, now if that was Oakboy's suggestion or if he'd wanted those types of regions in a domestic cup, I'd've been more supportive. I don't know I'd back it necessarily, but it would certainly be the best short-term thing for the England team.

Puja

[Tom Moore]

*****Warning*****

I accept that this opinion is likely to be unpopular and unworkable.

I would prefer it if we entered 4 or 5 teams (dependent on numbers) composed solely of English qualified players, thereby giving the opportunity for EQP's to improve.

Run by the RFU, coaches appointed by the RFU, compensation paid to the clubs for loss of earnings, played at club grounds with cheaper tickets, squad composition based on Eddie and his merry men picking in conjunction with the appointed coaches.

See, now if that was Oakboy's suggestion or if he'd wanted those types of regions in a domestic cup, I'd've been more supportive. I don't know I'd back it necessarily, but it would certainly be the best short-term thing for the England team.

Puja

I'd be quite happy with some sort of regional based domestic cup or tournament on that basis, and a reduction in teams in the AP to 8-10; but then I don't have a club team, my support is concentrated solely on England(my eldest informs me that this is regarded as "having no skin in the game", but then she says all manner of stuff I don't understand so apologies if that's wrong), and short of turkeys voting for Christmas, I felt this might be the most workable compromise.