Mathieu Bastareaud

[Digby]

Not sure when his ban is being announced today, but could be soon. Just one quick question, what was said to Bastareaud to make him react? I didn't quite catch it, it came after talk of leading with elbow or swinging his arm (I forget which) and then possibly someone said 'fucking nigger' though I've assuming not or we'd have had another ban looming. So didn't anyone catch what was said?

Also far simpler just to say any abusive language can and likely will result in a ban, else rugby is just going to waste time explaining why it thinks some offensive phrases okay and others not.

[Which Tyler]

People with better hearing than I have come down with "Lazy African".
I can hear the "lazy" but can't really make out the second word for myself.
Lazy is, of course, fair comment about Basta; "African" though is definitely a comment on his race (bear in mind that Negri is Zimbabwe born and bred, Basta France born and bred).
IMO Negri should also be being investigated, but as he isn't, I'd guess it does provide provocation, and an excuse to go reduce from mid-range for a ban.
I'd still expect the ban to be several months though as, whilst it mitigates, the offense is still mid-range for me (which is what 4 months?)

[Digby]

Better heading, better auto-correcting, the lit goes on.

If he was called a lazy African that should be investigated else why is using racist language acceptable?

[Digby]

And I don't see how Marler gets a few weeks and Bastareaud gets a few months. They set a standard with Marler and I don't see a reason to veer away from it now, though they should feel free to increase over time.

[Which Tyler]

Well, IMO what Basta said is a lot worse than what Marler said.
Equivalence between a bit of handbags versus Manu on Ashton.

What Negri said is a lot worse than Marler too

[Mellsblue]

Under UK law being black, gay or a traveller you are equally protected. I understand it’s not a matter for UK law but on this basis I can’t see one being any worse than the other. Against that, it’s a rugby disciplinary panel and I therefore doubt any logic or recourse to the law is involved in the decision making process.

[Digby]

Well, IMO what Basta said is a lot worse than what Marler said.
Equivalence between a bit of handbags versus Manu on Ashton.

What Negri said is a lot worse than Marler too

I'm not sure what Marler said is even racist, but if it's going to be treated as such then I don't know I'd start to rank which ism is worse.

Pretty soon we're not going to be able to have the players call each other dicks or cunts, and there are reasonable grounds for banning both as referencing part of the human anatomy in pejorative fashion isn't respectful, and it may even be worse saying cunt or similar in that language tends to be biased to having more terms of abuse that reference woman so tat has elements of body shaming and misogyny. And the list will go on and on, which is why I'd simply tell them step over the line in directing abuse and you'll get a ban whatever subject area you reference in your abuse.

[Digby]

Under UK law being black, gay or a traveller you are equally protected. I understand it’s not a matter for UK law but on this basis I can’t see one being any worse than the other. Against that, it’s a rugby disciplinary panel and I therefore doubt any logic or recourse to the law is involved in the decision making process.

If they are ignoring a comment about Bastareaud being an African then they've already set off down a path of being willfully inconsistent. Which will surprise virtually no one.

[Puja]

And I don't see how Marler gets a few weeks and Bastareaud gets a few months. They set a standard with Marler and I don't see a reason to veer away from it now, though they should feel free to increase over time.

Hah! Expecting consistency in citing boards! You card.

If Negri said that, then it should be a sizeable ban for both, even if they say they didn't really mean it and are really sorry and it was out of character, etc. etc. I don't care how angry you are - the fact that you've got those words ready as a retort is a problem with you and somehing you really should be sorting out.

Being an awful person isn't a bannable offence, but being awful on live television when you're a role model definitely is. Learn to keep it behind your teeth or fuck off from the game.

Puja

[Digby]

And I don't see how Marler gets a few weeks and Bastareaud gets a few months. They set a standard with Marler and I don't see a reason to veer away from it now, though they should feel free to increase over time.

Hah! Expecting consistency in citing boards! You card.

If Negri said that, then it should be a sizeable ban for both, even if they say they didn't really mean it and are really sorry and it was out of character, etc. etc. I don't care how angry you are - the fact that you've got those words ready as a retort is a problem with you and somehing you really should be sorting out.

Being an awful person isn't a bannable offence, but being awful on live television when you're a role model definitely is. Learn to keep it behind your teeth or fuck off from the game.

Puja

If the authorities expect them to be professional I've no objection to that, and saying they must be professional seems a more reasonable shout than noting in some vague fashion they're role models . But I do have an objection if they're saying to the players they should be professional whilst handing out radically different bans for similar behaviour, 'cause that's not professional

[Which Tyler]

I'm not sure what Marler said is even racist, but if it's going to be treated as such then I don't know I'd start to rank which ism is worse.

This is all IMO of course, but I don't think I'm comparing "isms". For me, racism is no better or worse than sexism or homophobia.
I do, however, feel that "get back in your caravan" is about as racist as "lazy African" and less ...ist than "fucking faggot". The latter is just more hate-filled and more likely to trigger* someone. I'd classify the first two as low-end (having acknowledged that travelers are a protected minority, even if I'm still racist against them ). Basta's insult seem mid-range to me, whilst we all know what would classify as high-end, and none of us would likely be happy typing them here.


Not all punches are the same, not all stamps are the same,not all contacts with the eye area are the same, and not all racist/sexist/homophobic comments are the same.

*Sorry to use that term, but it is appropriate.

[Digby]

More hate filled because of the use of a vulguar term for sex? I ask in particular as said term for sexual intercourse is one of the most popular on a rugby field and thus should any expression of hate not be tolerated/see a ban?

This btw is the sort of madness rugby volunteered for once they kicked off the 'you can't say that on the off chance we care about that this week campaign'

[Mikey Brown]

Marler’s was funny though.

[Digby]

Marler’s was funny though.

[Oakboy]

It used to be much simpler when offence could be measured by reaction and resolved by a punch. I've known people over the years who didn't much mind any of the 'ism' adjectives but reacted violently to the term 'bastard' for legitimate reasons. Maybe it would be easier if rugby had a list of allowable insults. Would 'snowflake' be one?

[fivepointer]

Bounder or rotter would seem safe. Verbals have always been part of the game. Being called a effin so and so and calling someone an effin so and so (or variations on the theme) are part of the game.
Difference is the pro game is high profile, with mics everywhere, so players have to be a lot more careful about what they say.
Its part of being in the pro game and earning the big bucks. It carries an extra responsibility to behave with a bit of discretion.

[Greebo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42721276

Mathieu Bastareaud will miss France's Six Nations opener against Ireland on 3 February after receiving a three-week ban for making a homophobic remark.

[Puja]

More hate filled because of the use of a vulguar term for sex? I ask in particular as said term for sexual intercourse is one of the most popular on a rugby field and thus should any expression of hate not be tolerated/see a ban?

This btw is the sort of madness rugby volunteered for once they kicked off the 'you can't say that on the off chance we care about that this week campaign'

More hate filled, because f****t is the language used by lynch mobs. "Lazy African", while a spectacularly shitty thing to say, isn't the kind of language associated with being in fear of your life. I'd say f****t is equivalent to the n-word.

Puja

[Digby]

More hate filled because of the use of a vulguar term for sex? I ask in particular as said term for sexual intercourse is one of the most popular on a rugby field and thus should any expression of hate not be tolerated/see a ban?

This btw is the sort of madness rugby volunteered for once they kicked off the 'you can't say that on the off chance we care about that this week campaign'

More hate filled, because f****t is the language used by lynch mobs. "Lazy African", while a spectacularly shitty thing to say, isn't the kind of language associated with being in fear of your life. I'd say f****t is equivalent to the n-word.

Puja

My problem with this view is that so much of what's said on a rugby field is prefixed or suffixed by a word rhyming with luck, it's probably used more often than words like left, right or pass

[Puja]

More hate filled because of the use of a vulguar term for sex? I ask in particular as said term for sexual intercourse is one of the most popular on a rugby field and thus should any expression of hate not be tolerated/see a ban?

This btw is the sort of madness rugby volunteered for once they kicked off the 'you can't say that on the off chance we care about that this week campaign'

More hate filled, because f****t is the language used by lynch mobs. "Lazy African", while a spectacularly shitty thing to say, isn't the kind of language associated with being in fear of your life. I'd say f****t is equivalent to the n-word.

Puja

My problem with this view is that so much of what's said on a rugby field is prefixed or suffixed by a word rhyming with luck, it's probably used more often than words like left, right or pass

Fuck isn't the f-word that bothers me though. As you said, it's a simple amplifier used on a rugby pitch.

Puja

[Digby]

I'm hesitant to start ranking words and saying which is worse. Which causes the most offence is going to vary person to person, a one size fits all offence matrix/model to use when banning people seems problematic even before the appeals start

[Puja]

I'm hesitant to start ranking words and saying which is worse. Which causes the most offence is going to vary person to person, a one size fits all offence matrix/model to use when banning people seems problematic even before the appeals start

I'm not keen on it either and I'm hesitant to get involved in creating a rankings list, but there are some which are universally acknowledged as beyond the pale: n*gger, k*ke, p*ki, f*ggot, etc.

Puja

[Crocked8]

As far as I can make out Negri said “late in the fooking game”. Apparently the Treviso players were upset with him swinging arms into rucks etc. Now if there had been a racist comment wouldn’t the players around and even the ref(who was standing right next to them) have reacted to it?

[Digby]

I'm hesitant to start ranking words and saying which is worse. Which causes the most offence is going to vary person to person, a one size fits all offence matrix/model to use when banning people seems problematic even before the appeals start

I'm not keen on it either and I'm hesitant to get involved in creating a rankings list, but there are some which are universally acknowledged as beyond the pale: n*gger, k*ke, p*ki, f*ggot, etc.

Puja

You could call me any of those and I really wouldn't care. Indeed I have a friend (I think I've mentioned this before) who does call me Paki, he's Indian and to him it's a term to apply to a great many things which may annoy him

[Digby]

As far as I can make out Negri said “late in the fooking game”. Apparently the Treviso players were upset with him swinging arms into rucks etc. Now if there had been a racist comment wouldn’t the players around and even the ref(who was standing right next to them) have reacted to it?

Players hear bad stuff all the time, much of it from their own mouths. And the ref didn't seem that fussed at the faggot comment either