2018 6Nations - Game 1: Italy

[Digby]

faint praise indeed

I hadn't realised quite how bad he was in the game, partly by dint of watching the England players more. Johnny May might be annoyed by some of the thinking that went into his play

(Btw, Invers has just suggested Wiggle for Wales)

That confirms several opinions I hold. Though I assume he said Wiggy.

Gravity is fake news
The world is flat
English discipline is outstanding

[Scrumhead]

It was a game of pluses and minuses IMO.

We looked very good at times in attack. I can quite honestly say today was the most threatening I have seen Farrell as a 12 for England and while it was ‘only Italy’, I was more impressed by his choice or running lines than anything else which suggests his attacking instinct is improving. May’s contribution off his wing was great and it was brilliant to see Simmonds bringing his Exeter form/style to the England side.

Youngs’ injury is an obvious negative but the potential upside is that we need to look at a thirs scrum half, which is long overdue.

We also looked poor at time in defence and didn’t threaten at all at the breakdown.

Most concerning for me was our ball retention at the ruck. We were turned over on at least 3 occasions when the ball carrier was isolated. Play like that against Wales and we will definitely be punished.

Next week is shaping up to be a corker.

[scuzzaman]

Congratulations to England.

You did something today I didn't expect; you made Italy look quite good.

[Timbo]

Congratulations to England.

You did something today I didn't expect; you made Italy look quite good.

But yet nowhere near as good as you lot made Scotland look...

[Timbo]

Most concerning for me was our ball retention at the ruck. We were turned over on at least 3 occasions when the ball carrier was isolated. Play like that against Wales and we will definitely be punished.

Next week is shaping up to be a corker.

Watching the 1014 analysis you can see that very consistent ball retention at the ruck is not the main priority for this England team. We want as much as possible to have one player clearing out and operate in pods of 2, and we want our forwards runnning a bit wider of the breakdown than most teams would. The downside is that you can get turned over more frequently, the plus side is that all it takes is a couple of 1 or 2 second breakdowns and we’re creating all sorts of mismatches and numbers up.

[Banquo]

I hadn't realised quite how bad he was in the game, partly by dint of watching the England players more. Johnny May might be annoyed by some of the thinking that went into his play

(Btw, Invers has just suggested Wiggle for Wales)

That confirms several opinions I hold. Though I assume he said Wiggy.

Gravity is fake news
The world is flat
English discipline is outstanding

Lay off the chilled sherry and snowballs

[Banquo]

Most concerning for me was our ball retention at the ruck. We were turned over on at least 3 occasions when the ball carrier was isolated. Play like that against Wales and we will definitely be punished.

Next week is shaping up to be a corker.

Watching the 1014 analysis you can see that very consistent ball retention at the ruck is not the main priority for this England team. We want as much as possible to have one player clearing out and operate in pods of 2, and we want our forwards runnning a bit wider of the breakdown than most teams would. The downside is that you can get turned over more frequently, the plus side is that all it takes is a couple of 1 or 2 second breakdowns and we’re creating all sorts of mismatches and numbers up.

well its a plan, but I wouldn't fancy it against the All Blacks that much. It also then relies on players with the skills and decision making ability to convert the mismatches.....and that you don't concede the soft tries we did today.

[Raggs]

I wouldn't fancy it against the Irish or the Welsh either... but I suspect we're going to do it!

[Puja]

Most concerning for me was our ball retention at the ruck. We were turned over on at least 3 occasions when the ball carrier was isolated. Play like that against Wales and we will definitely be punished.

Next week is shaping up to be a corker.

Watching the 1014 analysis you can see that very consistent ball retention at the ruck is not the main priority for this England team. We want as much as possible to have one player clearing out and operate in pods of 2, and we want our forwards runnning a bit wider of the breakdown than most teams would. The downside is that you can get turned over more frequently, the plus side is that all it takes is a couple of 1 or 2 second breakdowns and we’re creating all sorts of mismatches and numbers up.

The thing that annoys me is that that tactic is perfectly viable and would work well if we had just a little bit more breakdown work available in our back row. So either we pick two Robshaw-style players (Robshaw + Underhill/Haskell/Wilson/Armand) or we pick Lawes and have a really good breakdown specialist with him (so Lawes + Curry/Curry/Willis). Or we stick with Lawes and Robshaw, but accept that Robshaw can't do it all himself and divert an extra player to each breakdown to spread the load over Simmonds, Launchbury, Itoje, etc.

What we can't do is expect Robshaw to be our sole breakdown presence. A fine player he might be, but his particular talents don't lend themselves to doing that.

Puja

[Banquo]

I wouldn't fancy it against the Irish or the Welsh either... but I suspect we're going to do it!

Less ruthless converting a turnover I fancy.

[Timbo]

Most concerning for me was our ball retention at the ruck. We were turned over on at least 3 occasions when the ball carrier was isolated. Play like that against Wales and we will definitely be punished.

Next week is shaping up to be a corker.

Watching the 1014 analysis you can see that very consistent ball retention at the ruck is not the main priority for this England team. We want as much as possible to have one player clearing out and operate in pods of 2, and we want our forwards runnning a bit wider of the breakdown than most teams would. The downside is that you can get turned over more frequently, the plus side is that all it takes is a couple of 1 or 2 second breakdowns and we’re creating all sorts of mismatches and numbers up.

well its a plan, but I wouldn't fancy it against the All Blacks that much. It also then relies on players with the skills and decision making ability to convert the mismatches.....and that you don't concede the soft tries we did today.

Our efficiency at converting chances is very good imo. The bigger problem for me has been generating that quick ball consistently. That’s why under Jones we’ve been a team that operates in fits and starts and also a team that only really dominates when teams tire, as it’s harder to knock back our runners and also contest breakdowns when you’re knackered.

[Timbo]

I wouldn't fancy it against the Irish or the Welsh either... but I suspect we're going to do it!

Well it’s worked against Wales for 2 victories so far, and Ireland once. I still contend that the very wet conditions in last years Ireland game skewed things somewhat. We should have adapted, but the torrential rain definitely suited them more than us.

[Scrumhead]

Conditions plus the fact that we didn't have Robshaw and Billy was not at his best at having been rushed back from injury.

I fully appreciate that Italy aren't the toughest opposition, but I'm a lot happier with the fluency we showed in attack at times today than I was in any of the AIs. It looked like we knew what we were doing with ball in hand. It's just shame Ford kicks it away SO often. I don't see the point when we have shown we can actually dangerous when we can go through the phases and generate quick ball.

[richy678]

I think a lot of posters are not prepared to think of this game in the context of a first hit out.
England fans are also cowed to not mention the injury list thing as our "fabulous resources" should compensate.
We've fell into that trap of either believing the propaganda, which could easily be span by the bards and druids to be our inbuilt arrogance.
The defence did have holes and issues though.

I thought Farrell resembled Greenwood as he lengthened his stride to get over the line - he did look a very accomplished player today.

I have never trusted May. Great going forward, don't trust him going backwards.

I have always rated Browny, he didn't have his best game today.

I thought Lawes was immense. So much work, lineout catches, presence. He does carry - but he doesn't carry like he he is going to bust through - ok that's probably the plan - take two tacklers to the floor etc....He is a very senior player now - been around a long time.

We started with an absolute bang - crisp handling, brilliant running lines - as the modern talk puts it - stress the opposition defence and develop space or overload in your favour with fast men able to exploit it.

We went flat after that. We probably need a "if we get boring/flat plan" - its the emotional intelligence I suppose, even a kick right into the corner or a Hollywood big hit tackle......we seem to retreat into Eddies desire to dominate set piece - scrums and line outs - without gaining physiological advantage or even clear field position advantage.

[Stom]

Tbh, that was the first real time I saw Jones' England attack. And it doesn't look bad.

I don't feel like we want to do it all the time, just when we do hit those phases with the defense lined up in a certain way, we score more often than not.

If we can do more of it AND make fewer individual mistakes, we will do well.

The breakdown is still a worry, mind.

[Scrumhead]

I think a lot of posters are not prepared to think of this game in the context of a first hit out.
England fans are also cowed to not mention the injury list thing as our "fabulous resources" should compensate.
We've fell into that trap of either believing the propaganda, which could easily be span by the bards and druids to be our inbuilt arrogance.
The defence did have holes and issues though.

I thought Farrell resembled Greenwood as he lengthened his stride to get over the line - he did look a very accomplished player today.

I have never trusted May. Great going forward, don't trust him going backwards.

I have always rated Browny, he didn't have his best game today.

I thought Lawes was immense. So much work, lineout catches, presence. He does carry - but he doesn't carry like he he is going to bust through - ok that's probably the plan - take two tacklers to the floor etc....He is a very senior player now - been around a long time.

We started with an absolute bang - crisp handling, brilliant running lines - as the modern talk puts it - stress the opposition defence and develop space or overload in your favour with fast men able to exploit it.

We went flat after that. We probably need a "if we get boring/flat plan" - its the emotional intelligence I suppose, even a kick right into the corner or a Hollywood big hit tackle......we seem to retreat into Eddies desire to dominate set piece - scrums and line outs - without gaining physiological advantage or even clear field position advantage.

Good post. I agree with pretty much everything there. Had one of the other home nations come away from Rome with a 46-15 victory we’d have been saying what a good result it was.

If we hadn’t gone ‘flat’, we could and probably should have scored some more points. As it was, an off day with the boot from Farrell let them off of us scoring more than 50.

[Digby]

Most concerning for me was our ball retention at the ruck. We were turned over on at least 3 occasions when the ball carrier was isolated. Play like that against Wales and we will definitely be punished.

Next week is shaping up to be a corker.

Watching the 1014 analysis you can see that very consistent ball retention at the ruck is not the main priority for this England team. We want as much as possible to have one player clearing out and operate in pods of 2, and we want our forwards runnning a bit wider of the breakdown than most teams would. The downside is that you can get turned over more frequently, the plus side is that all it takes is a couple of 1 or 2 second breakdowns and we’re creating all sorts of mismatches and numbers up.

The thing that annoys me is that that tactic is perfectly viable and would work well if we had just a little bit more breakdown work available in our back row. So either we pick two Robshaw-style players (Robshaw + Underhill/Haskell/Wilson/Armand) or we pick Lawes and have a really good breakdown specialist with him (so Lawes + Curry/Curry/Willis). Or we stick with Lawes and Robshaw, but accept that Robshaw can't do it all himself and divert an extra player to each breakdown to spread the load over Simmonds, Launchbury, Itoje, etc.

What we can't do is expect Robshaw to be our sole breakdown presence. A fine player he might be, but his particular talents don't lend themselves to doing that.

Puja

I think the easier way to make the tactic work isn't to focus on the breakdown, it's to add carriers. Though I'd look at the breakdown anyway.

[Banquo]

Watching the 1014 analysis you can see that very consistent ball retention at the ruck is not the main priority for this England team. We want as much as possible to have one player clearing out and operate in pods of 2, and we want our forwards runnning a bit wider of the breakdown than most teams would. The downside is that you can get turned over more frequently, the plus side is that all it takes is a couple of 1 or 2 second breakdowns and we’re creating all sorts of mismatches and numbers up.

well its a plan, but I wouldn't fancy it against the All Blacks that much. It also then relies on players with the skills and decision making ability to convert the mismatches.....and that you don't concede the soft tries we did today.

Our efficiency at converting chances is very good imo. The bigger problem for me has been generating that quick ball consistently. That’s why under Jones we’ve been a team that operates in fits and starts and also a team that only really dominates when teams tire, as it’s harder to knock back our runners and also contest breakdowns when you’re knackered.

It decreases the better the oppo obviously, which I guess is the flip side of what you are saying on consistent quick ball (and that will get less v good sides, ergo less chances anyway).
Be fascinating v the AB's, who make great decisions on contesting breakdowns.

[Digby]

Whether it was the Youngs injury which threw the side I don't know, though I wasn't impressed by Care, but one of the failings too often with England is a poor start. Today we did start well in the opening quarter, but then rather meandered through the 2nd and 3rd quarter mostly defending against a poor Italian attack

[Digby]

Not seen one done yet, so, team of the round

Healy
Guirado
Furlong
Henderson
AWJ
Shingler
Navidi
Simmonds
Davies
Ford
Earls
Parks
Williams
Watson
Halfpenny

[Banquo]

Not seen one done yet, so, team of the round

Healy
Guirado
Furlong
Henderson
AWJ
Shingler
Navidi
Simmonds
Davies
Ford
Earls
Parks
Williams
Watson
Halfpenny

Thought Mako went well in fairness.

Watson showed electric pace, but was anyone slightly concerned with the way he touched down the first try? No? Ok, just me then

[Renniks]

I'd have Mako in for sure

And I feel Farrell would definitely be a strong contender - that intercepted pass though

[p/d]

Good post. I agree with pretty much everything there. Had one of the other home nations come away from Rome with a 46-15 victory we’d have been saying what a good result it was.

It would be nice to think that be our reaction, though suspect we would be talking about how poor Italy were.........similar to the comments made about Scotland and France after yesterday's games.

I was hoping for a bit more blood and thunder today, from both sides. Sadly both defences were shown up and Ford and the iceman were really not put under pressure .....even though some of their kicking would suggest otherwise

[Digby]

Good post. I agree with pretty much everything there. Had one of the other home nations come away from Rome with a 46-15 victory we’d have been saying what a good result it was.

It would be nice to think that be our reaction, though suspect we would be talking about how poor Italy were.........similar to the comments made about Scotland and France after yesterday's games.

I was hoping for a bit more blood and thunder today, from both sides. Sadly both defences were shown up and Ford and the iceman were really not put under pressure .....even though some of their kicking would suggest otherwise

Just for you, it's possible to be wearing a denim jacket with a tie and not be the daftest looking person in a lineup

[p/d]

Not seen one done yet, so, team of the round

Healy
Guirado
Furlong
Henderson
AWJ
Shingler
Navidi
Simmonds
Davies
Ford
Earls
Parks
Williams
Watson
Halfpenny

Thought Mako went well in fairness.

Watson showed electric pace, but was anyone slightly concerned with the way he touched down the first try? No? Ok, just me then

Ha!!! Not just you, I had my doubts.