Clean(ish) slate

[Digby]

plus Sinckler's discipline is pi55 poor. He'll fit right into Eddie's pack.

It keeps being said he needs to drop people to make the message hit home. And yet game after game they're let off so they're okay to carry on. Though the Scotland game mostly wasn't about poor discipline, there was Underhill and Lawes who were stupid (anyone else?), and mostly it was being late to the rucks causing a problem

[switchskier]

Interestingly every reporter in the times today went for Daly at fullback come the World Cup. I'd have thought that if that was a serious notion he'd want to start playing there about now.

Having watched the weekends highlights I also can't believe that Ben Curry isn't in the squad. He'd add a different linking dimiension to England's attack and I don't think that you'd lose anything at the breakdown.

[Banquo]

Interestingly every reporter in the times today went for Daly at fullback come the World Cup. I'd have thought that if that was a serious notion he'd want to start playing there about now.

Having watched the weekends highlights I also can't believe that Ben Curry isn't in the squad. He'd add a different linking dimiension to England's attack and I don't think that you'd lose anything at the breakdown.

He's played there before for Wasps, but not for a few seasons regularly. Seems to be pretty committed to a switch to wing. One of the reporters also had Nowell at 13, and a few kept Lawes at 6 for the next game; they all had Farrell locked in at 10 or 12, and most suggested him as skipper. So you could question their collective wisdom.

Don't start us on 7's

[Raggs]

Can I ask if someone has a sale game they can recommend where Curry has a good clearing out game? I know it's not something that people really look for, but it's what Eddie seems to need (and previously wanted) from his 7.

[Digby]

Can I ask if someone has a sale game they can recommend where Curry has a good clearing out game? I know it's not something that people really look for, but it's what Eddie seems to need (and previously wanted) from his 7.

He doesn't need it in Robshaw. Granted if Robshaw can get there he's hard to counter ruck, but he's so slow getting there he's having to clearout and he in turn wasn't able to do that on Saturday.

I know I keep banging on about the scrum where Ford made a break and was instantly turned over, but that showed up Robshaw so badly on the openside, and possibly highlighted Robshaw can do that role only if everyone sticks to the planned move, whereas if Ford seems a defence pushing too early leaving a big hole he can't attack that with Robshaw as his support as the support will simply not arrive for an off the cuff play. Though we are playing France next and then of course we might see the French pick a tighthead or maybe a boulder on the openside.

But I'll have a look at Curry as regards getting counter rucked and his ability to clear out, as both are important even if we're not getting both right now

[Raggs]

I just watched the sarries sale game, very quickly, looking for Sales rucks. For the most part Curry was out on the wing, he got over the ball nicely on the few times he was required to, but I didn't really see any big clearouts. If I'd have ruck marked him, I suspect it would have been very low for overall activity.

[Scrumhead]

It’s a tricky one because judging a player on based upon a club game is all we have but it isn’t always a reliable indicator.

At Sale, Curry is playing alongside two much bigger back rowers in Ross and Strauss. It may be that his brief is to act as a link man and leave the big clear outs to those guys?

He’s quite a physical player so I imagine he’d be decent enough, but it’s hard to say.

[Raggs]

It’s a tricky one because judging a player on based upon a club game is all we have but it isn’t always a reliable indicator.

At Sale, Curry is playing alongside two much bigger back rowers in Ross and Strauss. It may be that his brief is to act as a link man and leave the big clear outs to those guys?

He’s quite a physical player so I imagine he’d be decent enough, but it’s hard to say.

It is tough on him, but if he's not doing it at club level, what is Eddie supposed to judge him on?

[Banquo]

Can I ask if someone has a sale game they can recommend where Curry has a good clearing out game? I know it's not something that people really look for, but it's what Eddie seems to need (and previously wanted) from his 7.

He doesn't need it in Robshaw. Granted if Robshaw can get there he's hard to counter ruck, but he's so slow getting there he's having to clearout and he in turn wasn't able to do that on Saturday.

I know I keep banging on about the scrum where Ford made a break and was instantly turned over, but that showed up Robshaw so badly on the openside, and possibly highlighted Robshaw can do that role only if everyone sticks to the planned move, whereas if Ford seems a defence pushing too early leaving a big hole he can't attack that with Robshaw as his support as the support will simply not arrive for an off the cuff play. Though we are playing France next and then of course we might see the French pick a tighthead or maybe a boulder on the openside.

But I'll have a look at Curry as regards getting counter rucked and his ability to clear out, as both are important even if we're not getting both right now

it was hideous, I even think I called it out during the game on the match thread!

If anyone needed proof that Lawes isn't a 6, that Robshaw is, and is not a 7, and that flying up out of defence isn't a great idea against a side who will take risks, and that numbers in a breakdown are at least sometimes needed, then look no further than this game.

[Digby]

Can I ask if someone has a sale game they can recommend where Curry has a good clearing out game? I know it's not something that people really look for, but it's what Eddie seems to need (and previously wanted) from his 7.

He doesn't need it in Robshaw. Granted if Robshaw can get there he's hard to counter ruck, but he's so slow getting there he's having to clearout and he in turn wasn't able to do that on Saturday.

I know I keep banging on about the scrum where Ford made a break and was instantly turned over, but that showed up Robshaw so badly on the openside, and possibly highlighted Robshaw can do that role only if everyone sticks to the planned move, whereas if Ford seems a defence pushing too early leaving a big hole he can't attack that with Robshaw as his support as the support will simply not arrive for an off the cuff play. Though we are playing France next and then of course we might see the French pick a tighthead or maybe a boulder on the openside.

But I'll have a look at Curry as regards getting counter rucked and his ability to clear out, as both are important even if we're not getting both right now

it was hideous, I even think I called it out during the game on the match thread!

If anyone needed proof that Lawes isn't a 6, that Robshaw is, and is not a 7, and that flying up out of defence isn't a great idea against a side who will take risks, and that numbers in a breakdown are at least sometimes needed, then look no further than this game.

You did indeed note it in the match thread, but if anyone hasn't noted it go and have a review as it's worse than you might imagine.

Robshaw and Barclay both break from the openside of the scum, both running forwards, Robshaw toward some future point of support, Barclay toward the ball carrier Ford. Barclays passes Robshaw and then turns to chase as Ford begins his break, Barclays runs back past Robshaw and tackles Ford, Barclay then gets back to his feet, shows a very clear release and gets hands onto the ball before Robshaw even arrives. Barclay was only one step short of lighting a cigar during the glacial age he had before the England openside arrived and by dint of being so late had no hope of clearing Barclay out. I'm willing to accept some limitations in Robshaw's play, but that phase for an openside on support of phase 2 ball ranks alongside a hooker who throws the ball in at the props feet during a lineout, Mike Brown's passing is a thing of beauty by comparison. If Neil Back had done that during an England game the look from Martin Johnson wouldn't have been supportive, indeed had my openside done that at a low level Uni game I'd have expressed a lack of appreciation for his efforts.

[Digby]

I just watched the sarries sale game, very quickly, looking for Sales rucks. For the most part Curry was out on the wing, he got over the ball nicely on the few times he was required to, but I didn't really see any big clearouts. If I'd have ruck marked him, I suspect it would have been very low for overall activity.

Watching the Bath game now, and again Curry is running some wider line, either in the centres or on the wing. Though it's also worth noting the Sale setpiece is laughable, and phase 2 is hard to judge when you can't even deliver phase 1

[p/d]

It’s a tricky one because judging a player on based upon a club game is all we have but it isn’t always a reliable indicator.

At Sale, Curry is playing alongside two much bigger back rowers in Ross and Strauss. It may be that his brief is to act as a link man and leave the big clear outs to those guys?

He’s quite a physical player so I imagine he’d be decent enough, but it’s hard to say.

Indeed. It is starting to sound like ‘why we shouldn’t pick Croft’ from times gone by. ‘Oh, he is out on the wing, can’t have that sort of behaviour in an England shirt’

[Digby]

It’s a tricky one because judging a player on based upon a club game is all we have but it isn’t always a reliable indicator.

At Sale, Curry is playing alongside two much bigger back rowers in Ross and Strauss. It may be that his brief is to act as a link man and leave the big clear outs to those guys?

He’s quite a physical player so I imagine he’d be decent enough, but it’s hard to say.

Indeed. It is starting to sound like ‘why we shouldn’t pick Croft’ from times gone by. ‘Oh, he is out on the wing, can’t have that sort of behaviour in an England shirt’

I doubt Raggs is averse to looking at Curry, more wondering if he's shown evidence of what Eddie has looked for in his 7s in the main which is ensuring we don't get counter rucked on phase 2 and making dominant tackles in defence. It would be fair to note Underhill has played and whilst he's shown the tackles there's a question against him when it comes to supporting our ball.

This is one of those areas where as so often we have a club Vs country issue. What Eddie perhaps wants to see from Curry isn't what Sale see as getting best use from their player.

[Raggs]

It’s a tricky one because judging a player on based upon a club game is all we have but it isn’t always a reliable indicator.

At Sale, Curry is playing alongside two much bigger back rowers in Ross and Strauss. It may be that his brief is to act as a link man and leave the big clear outs to those guys?

He’s quite a physical player so I imagine he’d be decent enough, but it’s hard to say.

Indeed. It is starting to sound like ‘why we shouldn’t pick Croft’ from times gone by. ‘Oh, he is out on the wing, can’t have that sort of behaviour in an England shirt’

I doubt Raggs is averse to looking at Curry, more wondering if he's shown evidence of what Eddie has looked for in his 7s in the main which is ensuring we don't get counter rucked on phase 2 and making dominant tackles in defence. It would be fair to note Underhill has played and whilst he's shown the tackles there's a question against him when it comes to supporting our ball.

This is one of those areas where as so often we have a club Vs country issue. What Eddie perhaps wants to see from Curry isn't what Sale see as getting best use from their player.

Pretty much this. Croft getting picked after he'd initially proven himself is something else. If Curry isn't showing what Eddie needs to see (for whatever reason), it's not on Eddie to pick him and play him to find out if he's capable of doing it. I like his athleticism, and when he gets over the ball properly he seems to be a pain to shift, but that's not what England need yet.

[Digby]

Pretty much this. Croft getting picked after he'd initially proven himself is something else. If Curry isn't showing what Eddie needs to see (for whatever reason), it's not on Eddie to pick him and play him to find out if he's capable of doing it. I like his athleticism, and when he gets over the ball properly he seems to be a pain to shift, but that's not what England need yet.

25th minutes of the Bath game and Sale go wide off the scrum on the openside. Coming off the scrum Curry is the 2nd man to arrive as it's a decent ways wide, and he looks perfectly decent, he's there before any of the Bath forwards, and he even bends his knees (which is a secret it seems nobody has told Lawes about). It's not enough to hang one's hat on, and it's against Fotuali'i (though he's more a threat than many AP flankers), but he's there, he copies nicely the work of the 1st man, he gets into a good position and the ball is won easily enough. If I have to wade through another 25 minutes to find another example it'll be slow going.

For anyone who hasn't seen the game the main highlight in the opening 25 is a truly weird exit play from Sale with Faf de Klerk chipping the ball to Bath in centrefield just outside the Sale 22, lord only knows what the aim was, suffice to say it didn't work.

[Stom]

On a different note, when both Currys are fit and firing, will Sale revert to Tom at 7 and Ben at 6? Or will one bench now they have Ross and Strauss doing the job they want of them?

On top of that, will Mercer continue to get gametime for Bath once they have Faletau back?

I really want to see the Saxons now, as we could put out a really good looking team there. The players who cannot get into Eddie's squad but may well be international class...

Genge/Hepburn
LCD/Taylor
Williams/Thomas/Sinckler
Ewels
Isiekwe
Chisholm
Curry
Mercer
Vellacot/Robson/Maunder
Smith
Cokaganisa(sp?)
Devoto
Marchant
Wade
Malins

[Mellsblue]

What did Tom do that Jones liked that Ben doesn’t? Also, Ben was the slated to start in the pre-tour game last year, before injury struck and Tom took his place. I wonder why he has fallen from favour so quickly.

[p/d]

What did Tom do that Jones liked that Ben doesn’t? Also, Ben was the slated to start in the pre-tour game last year, before injury struck and Tom took his place. I wonder why he has fallen from favour so quickly.

Didn't Tom get awarded motm?

That said I can only assume the guy Graham turned up to training in a kilt doing 'keepy ups' with a football

[Stom]

What did Tom do that Jones liked that Ben doesn’t? Also, Ben was the slated to start in the pre-tour game last year, before injury struck and Tom took his place. I wonder why he has fallen from favour so quickly.

I think Ben was always more likely, but Eddie seems to treat the 6N and AIs as must wins, and has only allowed himself experimentation against the Argies. So an uncapped player wouldn't have got a look in unless there were no other options. Hence Wiggy...

[p/d]

What did Tom do that Jones liked that Ben doesn’t? Also, Ben was the slated to start in the pre-tour game last year, before injury struck and Tom took his place. I wonder why he has fallen from favour so quickly.

I think Ben was always more likely, but Eddie seems to treat the 6N and AIs as must wins, and has only allowed himself experimentation against the Argies. So an uncapped player wouldn't have got a look in unless there were no other options. Hence Wiggy...

Jones also stated that he wanted 'three quality players in each position in the build up to WC'

[Digby]

Hard to see why Hughes after 20 minutes of rugby is an option when Mercer wasn't. Hughes started well enough but rather blew up early in the first half. There's respecting credit in the bank, and there's just being daft.

[Mellsblue]

What did Tom do that Jones liked that Ben doesn’t? Also, Ben was the slated to start in the pre-tour game last year, before injury struck and Tom took his place. I wonder why he has fallen from favour so quickly.

I think Ben was always more likely, but Eddie seems to treat the 6N and AIs as must wins, and has only allowed himself experimentation against the Argies. So an uncapped player wouldn't have got a look in unless there were no other options. Hence Wiggy...

Agreed, but was asking why Jones saw enough of them playing for Sale to have a look at them for the summer tour/money maker at HQ but not now like what he does for Sale.

I asked why Tom had leapfrogged Ben as the former has been on a training camp since Arg an latter has not.

[Puja]

What did Tom do that Jones liked that Ben doesn’t? Also, Ben was the slated to start in the pre-tour game last year, before injury struck and Tom took his place. I wonder why he has fallen from favour so quickly.

I think Ben was always more likely, but Eddie seems to treat the 6N and AIs as must wins, and has only allowed himself experimentation against the Argies. So an uncapped player wouldn't have got a look in unless there were no other options. Hence Wiggy...

Agreed, but was asking why Jones saw enough of them playing for Sale to have a look at them for the summer tour/money maker at HQ but not now like what he does for Sale.

I asked why Tom had leapfrogged Ben as the former has been on a training camp since Arg an latter has not.

Because Eddie. It's my opinion that he's enjoying the opportunity to play headgames with identical twins and always planned to declare one as better than the other to see how they responded. It was going to be Ben that was better, then he got injured before the Barbarians game and so Tom became the chosen one.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

On top of that, will Mercer continue to get gametime for Bath once they have Faletau back?

Yes. He's played alongside Taulupe a fair few times.
Will he still get game time once we have Faletau AND Louw AND Garvey AND enough specialist locks that Garvey doesn't have to play lock? that's a different matter. At that stage, he'll be fighting Underhill for the bench spot (though it's possible Todd would still play Garvey at lock anyway, allowing all of Faletau, Louw, Underhill and Mercer in the same 23). With the attrition rate for backrowers; and at Bath this season - I'm not too worried about how often we'll see this. Hell, between Louw's age and Underhill's tackling technique; we'll average at least one of those 2 out each week anyway.
If it doees ever happen, then Todd has shown tht he's willing to rotate; what he's never had is the ability to back up the rotation over multiple weeks.

Either way; I can see him picking up 20-odd matches per season for a bit.
Last year he got 11 starts and 9 benches; this year he's already on 13 starts and 5 benches - plenty to develop from; by the time Faletau leaves us next summer; he should be fine. He's on course to have 45 first class matches under his belt by his 21st birthday after all.

[Puja]

On top of that, will Mercer continue to get gametime for Bath once they have Faletau back?

Yes. He's played alongside Taulupe a fair few times.
Will he still get game time once we have Faletau AND Louw AND Garvey AND enough specialist locks that Garvey doesn't have to play lock? that's a different matter. At that stage, he'll be fighting Underhill for the bench spot (though it's possible Todd would still play Garvey at lock anyway, allowing all of Faletau, Louw, Underhill and Mercer in the same 23). With the attrition rate for backrowers; and at Bath this season - I'm not too worried about how often we'll see this. Hell, between Louw's age and Underhill's tackling technique; we'll average at least one of those 2 out each week anyway.
If it doees ever happen, then Todd has shown tht he's willing to rotate; what he's never had is the ability to back up the rotation over multiple weeks.

Either way; I can see him picking up 20-odd matches per season for a bit.
Last year he got 11 starts and 9 benches; this year he's already on 13 starts and 5 benches - plenty to develop from; by the time Faletau leaves us next summer; he should be fine. He's on course to have 45 first class matches under his belt by his 21st birthday after all.

And frankly, I want Mercer to have the ambition of ousting Faletau by summer 2019. I don't know if he'll do it, but he should be champing at the bit trying to improve himself and make it so he's first choice no matter who else is at the club.

Puja