Quins

[Stom]

From what I see online, the supporter atmosphere at Quins has turned toxic. And it's easy to see why.

There was an article from 2015 lambasting Conor O'Shea for his signings, but since then those signings have continued. So it actually seems like the board are behind the malaise. Kingston is not a good DoR, and our coaching team is extremely inbred. And then we get to the signings.

Since we won the AP, we've consistently lost more than we've replaced. We've bought in the likes of Ben Botica, Catrakilis, Alofa, Kennedy and Sackey both on the way down, Roberts on the way down, PDJ ffs, Stanley, etc., etc. It seems like we want to rely on the academy and buy average but cheap talent to go alongside that.

Which suggest one of two things. Our old timers are earning stupid money. Brown, Care, Robshaw, Marler may be on crazy money. Our mediocre players may be on stupid money: Matthews, Sinckler, Collier, Lambert, Wallace, Ward, Roberts, Visser.

The other option is that we're not spending up to the cap.

Either way, that surely rests on the board's shoulders.

Honestly, it looks like we're probably safe this season. But that's only because LI have been so crap for most of the season. If we do survive, there is a real chance we're going down next year.

Sure, Tapuai is a great boost, but our other mooted signings are rather unimpressive. The only chance we have is if England suddenly decide Brown, Care and Robshaw are not international quality...

I, and many fans, think there is something rotten at Quins, and we don't see any way to fix it with the current structure.

[Mikey Brown]

Hard to disagree with much of that. It’s been a struggle.

[Mellsblue]

Not enough connections with Bedford. Remember the glory days of Gommers, Skinner and K Dickson. Bring in Flanagan, Jaimie Elliott and Atkinson over the summer and you’ll be fine.

Being serious.....how much is the funding of the new stadium hindering spending on wages?

Going back to being a ****......If the stadium funding is an issue then all you have to do is look north of the river and see how Arsenal stagnated for a while whilst financing the Emirates only to flourish when the purse strings ......ah, no, hang on.....

Going back to being serious......it’s awful when your club is in decline. The two seasons Bedford flirted with relegation were pretty depressing. Just be glad you dont worry about losing your club. When ***** tried moving us to Milton Keynes I was farking livid.

[Stom]

Not enough connections with Bedford. Remember the glory days of Gommers, Skinner and K Dickson. Bring in Flanagan, Jaimie Elliott and Atkinson over the summer and you’ll be fine.

Being serious.....how much is the funding of the new stadium hindering spending on wages?

Going back to being a ****......If the stadium funding is an issue then all you have to do is look north of the river and see how Arsenal stagnated for a while whilst financing the Emirates only to flourish when the purse strings ......ah, no, hang on.....

Going back to being serious......it’s awful when your club is in decline. The two seasons Bedford flirted with relegation were pretty depressing. Just be glad you dont worry about losing your club. When ***** tried moving us to Milton Keynes I was farking livid.

They're only on consultation with the stadium plans...so it's not as if that will have been a huge drain on budget over the past 5 years...yet our budget has either been lower or we've been spending it atrociously. Either way, it's crap.

[Scrumhead]

Yep. It’s terrible being a Quins fan ATM. I’m a season ticket holder but with the team in this kind of form, I’m torn on whether to renew or not.

I think the signings for next season are actually quite good. Earle and Dombrandt have been confirmed and if the rumours are true, we have Tapuai, Auterac and Symons coming in.

While none of those are star names, they’re all decent signings who will improve the squad. I’m not heartbroken about any of the outgoing guys either (although I’ll be disappointed if Sam Aspland-Robinson is going to Tigers).

The issues are more to do with Kingston and the coaching set-up. They’re virtually all club men brining very little experience or insight from elsewhere.

People I know at the club say we have no money which also seems odd given the make up of our squad.

Our club motto is Latin for ‘never sleeping’ which is ironic considering I am genuinely concerned that the other clubs around us such as Sale, Newcastle and Gloucester are showing far more signs of progressing than we are. It feels like we’re snoozing away while our closest competitors are wide awake and getting better.

With Bristol being promoted next season we’re going to have a proper fight on our hands to stay up.

[Bloggs]

This feels more dreadful than when we were being relegated, as at least then the squad had relatively little talent. If you write down a first team (assuming no injuries) it should be minimum top 6, if not pushing top 4:

Marler, Elia, Sinckler/Collier, Merrick, Horwill, Robshaw, Clifford, Chisholm, Care, Smith, Visser, Roberts, Marchant, Walker, Brown

That's a good enough first 15 to tackle anyone, but it's the same garbage issues that we've had for 5 years: lapses in defence, moronic discipline, not enough ability at the breakdown and an awful lineout. Nothing seems to be done to fix it each season, and it's really come to a head, it seems, with the contract renewals for Kingston and Mapletoft. I think it's the above which is why it feels so toxic right now.

I think Tapuai, Earle and Symons are the kind of signings we should be making, but I think Marler was spot on when he said that fresh voices would go down well in the changing room.

There does seem to be a poor attitude amongst some players too, and we need stronger leadership than we are seeing to sort it, maybe making a difficult decision in letting some of these players go, even if they are talented.

I very nearly left early on Saturday as we were so poor (and I was freezing my nuts off and so wanted to watch the Calcutta Cup)

[fivepointer]

Quins are having a torrid time ad its plain there are deficiencies in the coaching set up, recruitment and in performance. The squad is not without talent but it seems very few are consistently delivering.
One always has to look at the top when there is under performance. That means the board and Kingston.
Looking at Quins i dont see them as a top 4 side. They should be pushing for top 6, but thats about it, I reckon. They dont have the depth and quality to push into the top level in the premiership.
Whether a different coaching set up could get more out of the players is open to question. Kingston is an experienced coach and Rowntree has lots of top level coaching under his belt. I'm not sure how much newbies like Easter and Evans can bring at this stage of their careers.
In mitigation i would say that Quins (along with Bath) have suffered more than anyone else this season with injuries. That inevitably does make an impact on how the team performs.

[Stom]

Quins are having a torrid time ad its plain there are deficiencies in the coaching set up, recruitment and in performance. The squad is not without talent but it seems very few are consistently delivering.
One always has to look at the top when there is under performance. That means the board and Kingston.
Looking at Quins i dont see them as a top 4 side. They should be pushing for top 6, but thats about it, I reckon. They dont have the depth and quality to push into the top level in the premiership.
Whether a different coaching set up could get more out of the players is open to question. Kingston is an experienced coach and Rowntree has lots of top level coaching under his belt. I'm not sure how much newbies like Easter and Evans can bring at this stage of their careers.
In mitigation i would say that Quins (along with Bath) have suffered more than anyone else this season with injuries. That inevitably does make an impact on how the team performs.

But that's pretty much to do with the recruitment over the past 5 years. Since the AP win we've gone backward at an alarming rate of knots as important players have been replaced with inferior ones. And then we get Kingston back as DoR and bring in Easter and NEv on the cheap. We have everything that's needed to be a successful top 4 team: an owned ground, a high performing academy (though just 1 player in the latest u18s is a BIG worry), a history and a core group of top class premiership performers.

Yet the squad is full of filler who wouldn't look out of place at LI in their current incarnation.

[Bloggs]

Quins are having a torrid time ad its plain there are deficiencies in the coaching set up, recruitment and in performance. The squad is not without talent but it seems very few are consistently delivering.
One always has to look at the top when there is under performance. That means the board and Kingston.
Looking at Quins i dont see them as a top 4 side. They should be pushing for top 6, but thats about it, I reckon. They dont have the depth and quality to push into the top level in the premiership.
Whether a different coaching set up could get more out of the players is open to question. Kingston is an experienced coach and Rowntree has lots of top level coaching under his belt. I'm not sure how much newbies like Easter and Evans can bring at this stage of their careers.
In mitigation i would say that Quins (along with Bath) have suffered more than anyone else this season with injuries. That inevitably does make an impact on how the team performs.

But that's pretty much to do with the recruitment over the past 5 years. Since the AP win we've gone backward at an alarming rate of knots as important players have been replaced with inferior ones. And then we get Kingston back as DoR and bring in Easter and NEv on the cheap. We have everything that's needed to be a successful top 4 team: an owned ground, a high performing academy (though just 1 player in the latest u18s is a BIG worry), a history and a core group of top class premiership performers.

Yet the squad is full of filler who wouldn't look out of place at LI in their current incarnation.

I've heard other people say our coaches are on the cheap, but I don't know where this has come from. Firstly, we have loads of them, far too many (an issue in itself in my view) and secondly, I know that a lot of these individuals are paid very well for what they do.

[Stom]

Quins are having a torrid time ad its plain there are deficiencies in the coaching set up, recruitment and in performance. The squad is not without talent but it seems very few are consistently delivering.
One always has to look at the top when there is under performance. That means the board and Kingston.
Looking at Quins i dont see them as a top 4 side. They should be pushing for top 6, but thats about it, I reckon. They dont have the depth and quality to push into the top level in the premiership.
Whether a different coaching set up could get more out of the players is open to question. Kingston is an experienced coach and Rowntree has lots of top level coaching under his belt. I'm not sure how much newbies like Easter and Evans can bring at this stage of their careers.
In mitigation i would say that Quins (along with Bath) have suffered more than anyone else this season with injuries. That inevitably does make an impact on how the team performs.

But that's pretty much to do with the recruitment over the past 5 years. Since the AP win we've gone backward at an alarming rate of knots as important players have been replaced with inferior ones. And then we get Kingston back as DoR and bring in Easter and NEv on the cheap. We have everything that's needed to be a successful top 4 team: an owned ground, a high performing academy (though just 1 player in the latest u18s is a BIG worry), a history and a core group of top class premiership performers.

Yet the squad is full of filler who wouldn't look out of place at LI in their current incarnation.

I've heard other people say our coaches are on the cheap, but I don't know where this has come from. Firstly, we have loads of them, far too many (an issue in itself in my view) and secondly, I know that a lot of these individuals are paid very well for what they do.

Then simply bad decisions again.

[Mikey Brown]

I have no idea what a coach gets paid in comparison to a player. I'm curious how the pay situation would work with Nick Evans for example. I have a feeling he may have done well going from (at one point) world-class, veteran, marquee-player All Black to rookie backs coach.

[Scrumhead]

Quins are having a torrid time ad its plain there are deficiencies in the coaching set up, recruitment and in performance. The squad is not without talent but it seems very few are consistently delivering.
One always has to look at the top when there is under performance. That means the board and Kingston.
Looking at Quins i dont see them as a top 4 side. They should be pushing for top 6, but thats about it, I reckon. They dont have the depth and quality to push into the top level in the premiership.
Whether a different coaching set up could get more out of the players is open to question. Kingston is an experienced coach and Rowntree has lots of top level coaching under his belt. I'm not sure how much newbies like Easter and Evans can bring at this stage of their careers.
In mitigation i would say that Quins (along with Bath) have suffered more than anyone else this season with injuries. That inevitably does make an impact on how the team performs.

But that's pretty much to do with the recruitment over the past 5 years. Since the AP win we've gone backward at an alarming rate of knots as important players have been replaced with inferior ones. And then we get Kingston back as DoR and bring in Easter and NEv on the cheap. We have everything that's needed to be a successful top 4 team: an owned ground, a high performing academy (though just 1 player in the latest u18s is a BIG worry), a history and a core group of top class premiership performers.

Yet the squad is full of filler who wouldn't look out of place at LI in their current incarnation.

I'm not quite as pessimistic as you are. There are plenty of clubs who rarely have any significant number of players featuring at U18 and U20 level.

We're clearly not going to be in the market for top players, so I expect the strategy of 'growing our own' to continue. I accept that we're not going to have a Marcus Smith type of talent every year, but the number of academy products in our match day 23 is dropping and with the type of signings we're making, we're going to have a lot less players who have come through the club.

Based upon confirmed ins/outs and strong rumours, our first team squad is likely to look something like:

1. Marler / Auterac / Boyce / Holenstein
2. Ward / Buchanan / Elia / Crumpton / Piper
3. Sinckler / Collier / Swainston / McNulty / Ibuanopke
4. Symons / Merrick / South
5. Horwill / Glynn / Dombrandt
6. Robshaw / Lamb / White
7. Clifford / Wallace
8. Chisholm / Bothma
9. Care / Mulchrone / Lewis / Waters / Saunders
10. Smith / Catrakilis
11. Visser / Ibitoye / Mikalcius
12. Tapuai / Lang / Cheeseman
13. Marchant / Saili / Alofa
14. Walker / Earle
15. Brown / Morris / Swiel / R. Chisholm

The first XV is decent and we have better second-choice props than most, but there is very little quality in depth elsewhere in the squad.

If Saili, Bothma and Catrakilis can get fit and put together a run of games, we may well be saying they're better signings than they've looked this season, but it's still a pretty weak squad.

[Mikey Brown]

I sort of assumed the signing of Tapuai means Saili is totally fucked? Both 12s aren’t they?

[Scrumhead]

Saili’s more of a 13 who can play 12.

[zer0]

Looks like Harlequins are to be the All Blacks holidaying European destination of choice.

New Zealand Rugby have inked a deal with Harlequins which will see them become the destination for All Blacks seeking a European sabbatical.

...

Harlequins would send developing players to New Zealand as part of the deal, and could also see their coaches head to New Zealand for valuable experience, The Times reported.

The Rugby Football Union has no objection to the partnership, even though it may have benefits for England's international rivals.

The agreement will see NZR and Harlequins cooperate on a number of projects in relation to playing and coaching resources, team training and commercial leverage opportunities.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all ... abbaticals

[Raggs]

Is it just me thinking "Why quins?"

I can absolutely see why the RFU won't have any issues, one of the better academy gets to send it's youngsters off to NZ, and all blacks coming over get to play the "Quins way" and learn how to capitulate in the most ludicrous of circumstances.

[Mellsblue]

Is it just me thinking "Why quins?"

It’s in the article:
‘With its strong ex-pat community, London is of key strategic importance to New Zealand Rugby, and when you factor in our shared relationship with adidas, this cooperation agreement is a very natural fit.‘

[Mellsblue]

Looks good to me. The only problem I see is it will rely on a lot of luck to work out. Space in the cap for one - unless the NZRU are willing to pick up some of the tab - and space in the squad - if Beuden Barrett suddenly fancies a year on the gravy train it might stunt Smith’s development or if Franks wants to walk the streets paved with gold Quins might not want to spend the money on a position where they already have Sinckler and Collier. These example are illustrative only, I think Smith would benefit from a year with Barrett at his age, and with Collier’s injury record and Sinckler away with Eng Franks might be a good fit....,but you get my point.

[Raggs]

Is it just me thinking "Why quins?"

It’s in the article:
‘With its strong ex-pat community, London is of key strategic importance to New Zealand Rugby, and when you factor in our shared relationship with adidas, this cooperation agreement is a very natural fit.‘

That was what Quins were saying, not NZ. The shared adidas thing is a pretty thin reason to choose quins as one of the elite clubs that NZ feels can not harm the development of it's star players. As for London, that's a fair point, but I'd suggest there's another London club that perhaps has better evidence of this, and also more evidence of having the funds that the AB sabbatical players would be interested in.

[Tigersman]

I don’t really get this TBH.

It’s not like Quins will be getting a new set of coaches is it? (Do NZ really have any going spare?)
All it seems to me is NZ wanting a club it can use to let players like I don’t know say Cane go to for a year to top up the money.

What exactly can NZ learn from Quins? Surely Exeter or Sarries are much better clubs to learn about what England rugby is about and doing? But I can’t see any of the top 3 teams agreeing to this.

I’m skeptical but will watch in interest. Just will say a Julien Savea coming to Quins for a year on massive money really be that invested in how Quins do? (Carter wasn’t at Perpignan)

Is it just me thinking "Why quins?"

It’s in the article:
‘With its strong ex-pat community, London is of key strategic importance to New Zealand Rugby, and when you factor in our shared relationship with adidas, this cooperation agreement is a very natural fit.‘

That was what Quins were saying, not NZ. The shared adidas thing is a pretty thin reason to choose quins as one of the elite clubs that NZ feels can not harm the development of it's star players. As for London, that's a fair point, but I'd suggest there's another London club that perhaps has better evidence of this, and also more evidence of having the funds that the AB sabbatical players would be interested in.

True but Saracens is a club based on its “culture” I can’t see them wanting NZRU telling them how what to do with players.

[Which Tyler]

Is it just me thinking "Why quins?"

It’s in the article:
‘With its strong ex-pat community, London is of key strategic importance to New Zealand Rugby, and when you factor in our shared relationship with adidas, this cooperation agreement is a very natural fit.‘

I have a suspicion that this may have epbeen the most relevant part.

I can easily see a situation where NZ retain some control over the sabbatical players
I can easily see any top club being unwilling to be dictated to, or to have the star player for such a short period of time (given £££ expectations)
I can easily see Addidas agreeing to pay for some of this; and insisting they go to an Addidas club, and mention Addidas with reasonable frequency. addidas

[Raggs]

I think tigersman might be closer to the mark myself. These sabbatical players may well come with conditions on game time limits, rest periods etc along with maybe other directions? Teams currently in better positions may not want to be dictated to in that way.

[Mellsblue]

Is it just me thinking "Why quins?"

It’s in the article:
‘With its strong ex-pat community, London is of key strategic importance to New Zealand Rugby, and when you factor in our shared relationship with adidas, this cooperation agreement is a very natural fit.‘

That was what Quins were saying, not NZ. The shared adidas thing is a pretty thin reason to choose quins as one of the elite clubs that NZ feels can not harm the development of it's star players. As for London, that's a fair point, but I'd suggest there's another London club that perhaps has better evidence of this, and also more evidence of having the funds that the AB sabbatical players would be interested in.

That's a quote from Steve Tew. I doubt Sarries would go for it with their SA connections and monied backers.

[Mellsblue]

Is it just me thinking "Why quins?"

It’s in the article:
‘With its strong ex-pat community, London is of key strategic importance to New Zealand Rugby, and when you factor in our shared relationship with adidas, this cooperation agreement is a very natural fit.‘

I have a suspicion that this may have epbeen the most relevant part.

I can easily see a situation where NZ retain some control over the sabbatical players
I can easily see any top club being unwilling to be dictated to, or to have the star player for such a short period of time (given £££ expectations)
I can easily see Addidas agreeing to pay for some of this; and insisting they go to an Addidas club, and mention Addidas with reasonable frequency. addidas

Yep.

[Raggs]

You're right, was sure I'd read it was Ellis that had said that.

Well, good news for Quins regardless!