English Player Exhaustion

[Oakboy]

Talk in the DT this morning highlights comparison between Irish and English players post-Lions tour. Irish players involved with the Lions were properly rested afterwards. English players were not.

Three solutions occur:

1. Renegotiate club/country deal to achieve similar position to Irish.

2. Central contracts.

3. Withdraw from supporting Lions.


IMO, England cannot compete at top RWC competitiveness/top 6N ccompetitiveness without taking action no matter how talented and large our player pool. We are currently trying the impossible. Some combination of 1 - 3 above is essential.

[padprop]

Only worthwhile option would be number 2. People like Manu and Billy are crying out for a central contract but I do worry about the logistics and the divides it could bring if a select few are allowed to only play 10 club games a year while everyone has to slave on throughout.

But still, if people are blaming our six nations performance on still being tired from the lions than thats just silly.

[Spiffy]

If what we read in the media is true, Eddie Jones is flogging his players to death at training camp and leaving them knackered on match day. This would have more to do with their current state of exhaustion (if indeed it exists) than a Lions tour that took place months ago. That said, the central contract system seems to be working well enough in Ireland, but the downside is that club teams are deprived of their top players for important games.

[Oakboy]

Padrop and Spiffy, I think the initial danger for the Irish related to the Lions. They dealt with it.

There had to have been a similar issue for the English. They did not deal with it as well as the Irish did. Subsequently, English player fatigue WAS a factor in sub-par 6N performance. Fault and effect are debatable. All that matters is that the problem was evident and was mismanaged. I find that ridiculous with all the scientific and medical aids available. Delivering 23 players as near as possible to peak mental and physical condition for each match day is an obvious fundamental requirement of its own.

However, to under-perform in that function compared to Ireland is abject failure, IMO, with Eddie bearing full responsibility, including recruiting all assistance necessary from RFU and clubs.

I repeat my claim in an earlier post before the Ireland game that Eddie had failed to get maximum performances from players and team unit for every match.

To do so for that final game that mattered so much makes me doubt his overall competence at this stage. He has been found sadly wanting. If I could choose I would replace him with Baxter before the SA tour and I would allow Baxter to choose a full new set of assistant coaches.

[Raggs]

If Eddie is aiming for the RWC, then his training will not be aiming to get maximum performance out of the players for these 6N matches.

Eddie is also not responsible for all the AP matches that these guys have been played in.

[Which Tyler]

I'd like to add the potential solution of shrinking the Prem (reducing matches played, and concentrating the talent); whilst increasing the AWC (increasing variation of opponents, increasing chances for youngsters; mitigating lost profit days for the clubs). Preferably introducing a maximum number of minutes playable by any player - and enforcing it.


For those claiming that there can be no hang-over from the Lions is terms of tiredness - I call bullshit. They won't still be physically exhausted directly from the Lions - but they can still be psychologically so; and they haven't had a chance to rest & recuperate physically either. We've surely all seen the charts going around listing minutes played for each lion, and seen that the English clubs have continued to drive their players into the dirt, whlst the Welsh, Scots and Irish... haven't. You recover from exhaustion with R&R; not with continuing to exhaust yourself.


You then have to factor in that not only do the clubs flog the players; but so do England; we then need to look at why.
Which basically comes down to A] Eddie is new to coaching and doesn't have a clue what he's doing. B] The strength and conditioning trainers are new to rugby and don't know what they're doing. C] The between the, Eddie and the strength and conditioning trainers made in innocent mistake in the lead up to Italy, and just pushed a bit too far; but with all the stats and medical data at hand, were only capable of increasing the mistake for the following 6 weeks. or D] It was a deliberate ploy, probably with an eye to maximising performance at a competition that isn't the 2018 6N.
Of those, we happen to know that A, B and C are wrong; and that Eddie actively claimed D before the tournament even started.

[Raggs]

Would agree entirely with your last paragraph. The only question is if they're right on their theory, and we'll only really know come the world cup.

Considering how shattered the players looked, we were competitive and close in all 3 of the losses, including multiple missed chances that you'd normally expect to have scored from, wouldn't take much to turn them into wins.

[Digby]

There are three main issues to address, the Lions, the clubs, and England. And really we don't know by player how much the playing, training and mental fatigue is an issue in each area.

The Lions it would seem we can do nothing about, and the jamboree to raise money for the leading tier 1 nations in NZ, SA and Oz seems set to continue ad infinitum (though such things can also change quickly). I also think we're going to have a hard time asking the clubs for more assistance if it's true England are pasting the players in training with really heavy workloads.

As is the season is too long. Left to me at this time I think I'd introduce promotion and relegation into the 6N, and also drop it to the 5N (which would also boost the next level down), scrap the AW Cup, turn the Euro comps into a straight knockout from the off and limit the AI to 3 games. I think I'd also scrap the Saxons, and of course bar EPS players from joining jamboree tours (well actually they'd be free to go on a jamboree, they'd just then be dropped from future a future EPS). There's no chance any of that happens. I'll also acknowledge I'm still not sold on reducing the AP by 2 or even 4 teams, and that would help with fixture congestion too, but it's not an entirely consistent position to back some of the above and then not want to reduce the AP in size.

It'd be quite useful in all this to have an idea of what the next AP and Euro TV deals will look like. If Sky and BT aren't looking to invest more, and the viewing numbers aren't being touted by the game so I assume they're meh through to okay, then some of the above steps are not only dead in the water before starting but they've been killed off more times than Rasputin.

[francoisfou]

Making comparisons with the Pro14 and the Premiership - and forgive me if this point has been brought up before, an important fact is that England have twelve teams whereas the Irish and Welsh only have four each and the Scots have two, and of course no relegation, so I think it's fair to say that their players will gel together in their national sides more effectively, and coupled with the fact that those famous stats show that they play fewer games than the English, they have a significant advantage. So I maintain that England would definitely benefit with central contracts and strictly limited game time and possibly reducing the Premiership by two teams and scrapping relegation!

[pandion]

Bigger premiership squads and players taking a reduced salary for limited number of games to finance it. Wages have rocketed and players need to start weighing up career length with short term financial gain.

We have a large enough player pool and talent to select on form rather than this idea that everything works in 4 year cycles and players need 50+ caps to win a WC.

[fivepointer]

It about money unless you want to seriously rearrange the elite game in England (a reduced ringfenced prem, enforced maximum playing periods, rest and recovery slots)
Either the RFU takes on the players on central contracts, or they give the clubs more to have greater control in a revised EPS agreement.

[Digby]

If you're a vibrant club side why should a still larger percentage of what you do be about a 4 season world cup cycle? I don't see anything wrong with the clubs having a value simply in themselves. If other countries want to have a system that focuses much more on test rugby so be it, that's their call and good luck to them.

I also happen to think we've a better chance at moving England forward if we can sell the clubs that players playing fewer games at a higher intensity is a good thing. And there's maybe a chance of building on the European experience this season to do that

[Banquo]

It about money unless you want to seriously rearrange the elite game in England (a reduced ringfenced prem, enforced maximum playing periods, rest and recovery slots)
Either the RFU takes on the players on central contracts, or they give the clubs more to have greater control in a revised EPS agreement.

I think its both; reduced AP, and bribe the clubs in some shape or form (likely a massive bung for EQP elite control, but could be central contracts plus a bung for EQP numbers). The players are paid too much, but I fear that genie is out of the bottle, unless somehow salaries are capped worldwide.

(Incidentally, and for another thread, I really hope we and Eddie aren't putting it all down to mental and physical fatigue (and I do accept them as a factor in some part, albeit a bit self induced and deliberate)- the same faultlines in the team were evident pre-lions/flogging, and will only be plastered over with more energy and less stupidity- strikes me as being over-optimistic to say we narrowly missed a grand slam because we missed some scoring opportunities (joking ). Before the Lions tour, (without Billy) we lacked carrying, we lacked cohesion in the back row, midfield was a messy compromise that worked against iffy defences, problems at 9, problems with discipline, problems with consistent quick ball and decision making....a lot was masked by our 'finishers' (and that's a positive thing in a different context). Seems to me, tired or not, we still need carriers (imo Hartley is part of this problem, along with others), we still need a back-row (and Haskell and Robshaw, even doing manfully are no dream team plus can they still be effective on their terms come the RWC? No, methinks), we still need to figure out 10/12/13, we look to be in a quandary at 15 (with depth lacking), we still have work to do at 9, and our discipline remains an issue.)

[Mellsblue]

I thought the EPS agreement already stipulated max games for players and RFU control over when players are rested within a certain window. Not sure what else could be achieved other than throwing a bit more money at them to slightly reduce max number of games.

I really don’t understand how ring fencing the Prem would help in this instance. That’s before you get the the fact that nobody bar Teo is even close to being in a relegation fight, and I’m sure there are plenty of Wuss supporters who would point out that, although on the payroll, he doesn’t actually play for Wuss.

I’m happy to spread the blame around. The clubs for over playing some of their players, Jones for not managing his players correctly and the players themselves not managing themselves correctly - you can say no to the Lions and you can agree to be put in your club’s rotational programme, unlike Itoje.

Post Lions there must be a middle way. Could the player not pass on a proportion of his Lions fee to his club, who could pool it with the payment they receive directly and it then be used to bring in an SH loan player during which time the Lions player has a rest. All outside the salary cap, of course.

[Banquo]

I thought the EPS agreement already stipulated max games for players and RFU control over when players are rested within a certain window. Not sure what else could be achieved other than throwing a bit more money at them to slightly reduce max number of games.

I really don’t understand how ring fencing the Prem would help in this instance. That’s before you get the the fact that nobody bar Teo is even close to being in a relegation fight, and I’m sure there are plenty of Wuss supporters who would point out that, although on the payroll, he doesn’t actually play for Wuss.

I’m happy to spread the blame around. The clubs for over playing some of their players, Jones for not managing his players correctly and the players themselves not managing themselves correctly - you can say no to the Lions and you can agree to be put in your club’s rotational programme, unlike Itoje.

Post Lions there must be a middle way. Could the player not pass on a proportion of his Lions fee to his club, who could pool it with the payment they receive directly and it then be used to bring in an SH loan player during which time the Lions player has a rest. All outside the salary cap, of course.

Reduction and ring fencing are two different arguments its true. Cash is the answer though.

[pandion]

Central contract is gone. We have a massive player pool and excellent youth development with limited premiership squad places under the cap. Lots of guys who might not hit maturity till mid-late 20s are out the game because clubs can't keep them on. Bigger squads allowing for player development and limited games for welfare is the only way forward I can see.

[Digby]

Where does the RFU get money from the throw at the clubs? If the clubs don't get an increase in their next round of TV deals does that mean the RFU would need to hand over more money still?

[Digby]

Post Lions there must be a middle way. Could the player not pass on a proportion of his Lions fee to his club, who could pool it with the payment they receive directly and it then be used to bring in an SH loan player during which time the Lions player has a rest. All outside the salary cap, of course.

The Lions already pay the clubs for access to the players

Edit - Well in England they do, in Scotland and Ireland they pay the unions, and in Wales I don't know, it used to go to the clubs in Wales, but even then the WRU kindly took control of receiving the funds and bestowing it upon the clubs as though it were an act of generosity on their part.

I think the clubs in England keep the money, I don't think they pool it together and share between all AP clubs

[Mellsblue]

Post Lions there must be a middle way. Could the player not pass on a proportion of his Lions fee to his club, who could pool it with the payment they receive directly and it then be used to bring in an SH loan player during which time the Lions player has a rest. All outside the salary cap, of course.

The Lions already pay the clubs for access to the players

I know. Hence ‘could pool it with the payment they receive directly‘.

[Digby]

Post Lions there must be a middle way. Could the player not pass on a proportion of his Lions fee to his club, who could pool it with the payment they receive directly and it then be used to bring in an SH loan player during which time the Lions player has a rest. All outside the salary cap, of course.

The Lions already pay the clubs for access to the players

I know. Hence ‘could pool it with the payment they receive directly‘.

Given there's already an agreed (or established) split why would the players want to pass on a share?

Much more likely the clubs would take a run at the host union's TV monies

[Mellsblue]

The Lions already pay the clubs for access to the players

I know. Hence ‘could pool it with the payment they receive directly‘.

Given there's already an agreed (or established) split why would the players want to pass on a share?

Much more likely the clubs would take a run at the host union's TV monies

As he won’t be available for a large chunk of time. A few players have said they would earn less to play less, Ive just followed that line of thinking.

[Digby]

I know. Hence ‘could pool it with the payment they receive directly‘.

Given there's already an agreed (or established) split why would the players want to pass on a share?

Much more likely the clubs would take a run at the host union's TV monies

As he won’t be available for a large chunk of time. A few players have said they would earn less to play less, Ive just followed that line of thinking.

I've heard a few players say they might do that. I've not heard many say they've actually done it.

[Rich]

English rugby needs restructuring. The club system is not working and is not strong enough to produce top class test players.

All the little Englander club fans will scream in horror at the prospect but England needs to divide into about 6 rugby "provinces" each with an RFU funded and owned franchise.
The clubs would play in a club league within that franchise area.

That would give 10 domestic games per year and an average of about 8 European games for an average of about 18 first class games per year.

The season could then start the first week in September and be over by the May Day holiday and still allow for the two international seasons (AI's and 6N) without having to field weakened teams.

A for the Lions, I think that whilst support is still very strong it offers absolutely no benefits to NH rugby and just makes a lot of money for the big SH unions.

[Raggs]

English rugby needs restructuring. The club system is not working and is not strong enough to produce top class test players.

All the little Englander club fans will scream in horror at the prospect but England needs to divide into about 6 rugby "provinces" each with an RFU funded and owned franchise.
The clubs would play in a club league within that franchise area.

That would give 10 domestic games per year and an average of about 8 European games for an average of about 18 first class games per year.

The season could then start the first week in September and be over by the May Day holiday and still allow for the two international seasons (AI's and 6N) without having to field weakened teams.

A for the Lions, I think that whilst support is still very strong it offers absolutely no benefits to NH rugby and just makes a lot of money for the big SH unions.

The little Englander club fans may scream, the little Englander club owners might simply ask "What's in it for us?"...

[Mellsblue]

Given there's already an agreed (or established) split why would the players want to pass on a share?

Much more likely the clubs would take a run at the host union's TV monies

As he won’t be available for a large chunk of time. A few players have said they would earn less to play less, Ive just followed that line of thinking.

I've heard a few players say they might do that. I've not heard many say they've actually done it.

I haven't heard any say they've done it. We haven't ringfenced, we haven't imposed central contacts and we haven't reduced the size of the Prem, but they've all been suggested on this thread. If we are only going to propose things that have already been done this would be a very boring thread.