The Pain in Spain (poll)

[rowan]

What's your verdict? Vote here:

[rowan]

Another useful option would have been to transfer responsibility for RWC qualifiers from the ENC back to World Rugby. That's the way it was done until the turn of the century, and it seems that some of these regional bodies are not keeping pace with developments in the modern era.

[Which Tyler]

Poll needs to be multi-choice
Ban the players who chased the red; "have a chat" with the ref - threaten with demotion*; Fire the (Romanian) admin who insisted on an all-Romanian crew; There's an argument to be made to replay the game


* It looked pretty one-sided reffing, but that also happens in games where one side is constantly fouling and pissing off the ref; so I'm not 100% he was actively biased; but he doubled down on that sort of thing, which shows incomptence.
I suspect the Spanish went into that game with a "ref's out to get us" mentality, and then went out of their way to earn it.

[rowan]

Fire the (Romanian) admin who insisted on an all-Romanian crew

ENC's decision, and they refused to change it. The Spanish certainly appeared more focused on the ref than their own game as the match commenced. They were very poor, made crucial errors and couldn't take the points even when the opportunity presented itself. Obviously the investigation needs to be twofold. The reaction of the players after the final whistle shouldn't go unpunished. & the ENC's management of the refereeing arrangements should also come under the microscope. If a satisfactory explanation for refusing to change the officials - as requested well in advance by the Spanish Federation - cannot be provided, there may be a case for further action on that count. But actually replaying the fixture would not only be unfair on the Belgian players (who had nothing to do with this), and only bring the game into further disrepute.

[Which Tyler]

ENC's decision, and they refused to change it.

Yes - the ENC led by a Romanian; with ref appointments made by a Romanian, with the appointments being defended by a Romanian.
That's the bit that stinks to me; and probably where jobs need to be lost.


The ref himself was put in an unenviable situation; and I entriely agree that the Spanish seemed to take the pitch with a victim mentality; played poorly / were distacted by this victim mentality; and let it spill over in foul play, and deserved pretty much every penalty against them (that I saw - I watched an extended highlights; about 30 minutes total).
I've never been a fan of replaying matches; and think that should only be the case where active bias by a ref can be proven (not appointments; not coaches/players/media feeling hard done by) - there's an argument to be made; but I'd need the investigation to be pretty damned conclusive that ENC colluded to deny the Spanish to agree with the argument; which I can't see being the case.
The players who gave chase absolutely should be banned - there's is absolutely no excuse for that sort of behaviour.

[rowan]

ENC's decision, and they refused to change it.

Yes - the ENC led by a Romanian; with ref appointments made by a Romanian, with the appointments being defended by a Romanian.
That's the bit that stinks to me; and probably where jobs need to be lost.


The ref himself was put in an unenviable situation; and I entriely agree that the Spanish seemed to take the pitch with a victim mentality; played poorly / were distacted by this victim mentality; and let it spill over in foul play, and deserved pretty much every penalty against them (that I saw - I watched an extended highlights; about 30 minutes total).
I've never been a fan of replaying matches; and think that should only be the case where active bias by a ref can be proven (not appointments; not coaches/players/media feeling hard done by) - there's an argument to be made; but I'd need the investigation to be pretty damned conclusive that ENC colluded to deny the Spanish to agree with the argument; which I can't see being the case.
The players who gave chase absolutely should be banned - there's is absolutely no excuse for that sort of behaviour.

Yes, I think we're on the same page with most of this. I wasn't aware the ENC officials who made the appointments for this match were all Romanian. That does add another dimension to the debate. Probably the Spanish should have refused to play the match unless there was a change - and taken their case to World Rugby in the interim. Of course, that might have backfired as well, if they'd simply lost the points.

[Which Tyler]

Yes, I think we're on the same page with most of this. I wasn't aware the ENC officials who made the appointments for this match were all Romanian. That does add another dimension to the debate. Probably the Spanish should have refused to play the match unless there was a change - and taken their case to World Rugby in the interim. Of course, that might have backfired as well, if they'd simply lost the points.

ENC president is the Romanian - Moraria (or something like that) - who refused to countenance the Spanish request to change the officials. I'm led to believe he runs the ENC as a personal Fifedom; and overseas / micromanages the whole shebang.
Having said that of course; we're rapidly approaching the end of my knowledge of the organisation.

[rowan]

Quite likely the Romanians inherited the whole shebang from the French, when the FFR stepped aside at the end of the century. The Romanians had always been their second in command in Europe, even ahead of Italy. But we all know how the Romanians went backward after the collapse of communism, and that they were very slow to make the transition to professionalism, so perhaps the entire tier 2 administrative set up needs to be overhauled. Remember also that the tier 2 nations and their regional associations were directly involved in international rugby's most recent scandal - the controversial awarding of the 2023 RWC to France. Even the African rep said it was because the French looked after them.

[Which Tyler]

Yes - but that really wasn't a scandal - France were offering 20% more £$€ than the other bidders.
Harldy surprising that countries that rely on WR handouts of £$€ would prefer more money versus less money.

[cashead]

ENC's decision, and they refused to change it.

Yes - the ENC led by a Romanian; with ref appointments made by a Romanian, with the appointments being defended by a Romanian.

Clear conflict of interest, as the outcome of the game benefits the Romanian team.

The ref himself was put in an unenviable situation; and I entriely agree that the Spanish seemed to take the pitch with a victim mentality; played poorly / were distacted by this victim mentality; and let it spill over in foul play, and deserved pretty much every penalty against them (that I saw - I watched an extended highlights; about 30 minutes total).

Several of his decisions clearly impacted the outcome, such as play being inexplicably stopped when Spain, playing advantage, broke the line and their left wing had an open try-line in front of him. There was also a clear inconsistency in the application of the law, as Spain were getting penalised for things that Belgium were getting away with, specifically in the ruck. Whether or not he intended to favour Belgium to begin with ends up moot, when that's what the outcome is.

So, we get a Romanian administration, responsible for appointing an all-Romanian team to referee a match, where the Belgians winning benefits the Romanian team. Now, tell me how this looks?

[rowan]

Don't think that's fair, to be honest. Perhaps you can provide some examples of this inconsistent refereeing, the minutes when it occurred, etc.

I make the penalty count 18-7. That's not including errors resulting in turn overs, scrum & lineout feeds to the opposition and so on. There were only 3 against Spain in the first 17 minutes, plus one against Belgium. With Linklater missing his kicks the home-team thus went on to establish a 12-0 lead in the second quarter. Spain then began to give away the penalties thick and fast either side of halftime, finally leading to a yellow and another penalty for Belgium. By that time they were mentality out of it.

I agree the circumstances surrounding the refereeing appointments needs to be scrutinized, but I don't think the ref cost Spain the game at all. The visitors choked, pure and simple.

For me, the ENC has a case to answer and the Spanish players have a case to answer. The referee himself has no case to answer. & the Belgian players certainly shouldn't be dragged into and forced to play a game they will no doubt have little interest in.

NB: World Rugby also perhaps has a case to answer for basically outsourcing its rapidly shrinking qualifying system to regional associations without stricter guidelines.

[rowan]

Quite a rift is developing now between the Spanish and Romanian federations. This could really be quite damaging.

Spain's players acted like "hooligans" after the controversial defeat that saw them miss out on an automatic place for the 2019 World Cup, says the Romanian Rugby Federation president.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/43495000

[rowan]

ENC president is the Romanian - Moraria (or something like that) - who refused to countenance the Spanish request to change the officials. I'm led to believe he runs the ENC as a personal Fifedom; and overseas / micromanages the whole shebang.
Having said that of course; we're rapidly approaching the end of my knowledge of the organisation.

He has 1 share from 3400 for TV rights for Rugby Europe, and a Frenchman Patrick Roben is president of the refereeing commission. Roben stated the referees were not changed because the decision and all arrangements had been made well in advance. However, the match commissioner was changed - to a Frenchman.

Yes - but that really wasn't a scandal - France were offering 20% more £$€ than the other bidders.

Scandalous that it should have come down to open bribery, is what I meant.

[Digby]

Yes, I think we're on the same page with most of this. I wasn't aware the ENC officials who made the appointments for this match were all Romanian. That does add another dimension to the debate. Probably the Spanish should have refused to play the match unless there was a change - and taken their case to World Rugby in the interim. Of course, that might have backfired as well, if they'd simply lost the points.

ENC president is the Romanian - Moraria (or something like that) - who refused to countenance the Spanish request to change the officials. I'm led to believe he runs the ENC as a personal Fifedom; and overseas / micromanages the whole shebang.
Having said that of course; we're rapidly approaching the end of my knowledge of the organisation.

I'm told it's not just the Spanish who suggested a change, the ref did too. The ref reports into a French lad whose name I forget, whether the decision to stick with the ref was taken by the French bloke who undertakes that role, or whether it went up the chain I don't know.

But it's certainly the case the ref went into the game knowing there might be a perception problem.

[Digby]

1st pen of the game goes against Spain on attack who're done for holding on. No obvious release from the Belgian players but for now it's just one of those calls that happen all the time.

1-0 Belgium in the pen count

[Digby]

2nd pen of the game goes against Spain who're on attack. Can't see if it's the right or a fair call at the breakdown given the footage, but there are a lot of Spanish players off their feet, and Spain are giving themselves problems by playing so laterally. After the whistle a Spanish player dumps a Belgian lad to the floor, perhaps they're already not thinking correctly.

2-0 to Belgium on penalties

[Digby]

3rd pen of the game goes against Belgium who're on attack. Tbh if the ref was only looking one way he could have pinged Spain at the breakdown for hands on the floor past the ball, but so far he's clearly only looking for a better picture from the attacking side at the breakdown

2-1 to Belgium on the pen count

[Digby]

At the ensuing lineout the ref clearly isn't bothered by the Spanish hooker's notion of where he's allowed to throw in from

[Digby]

4th Pen goes against Spain on attack, they're done for blocking, and they are blocking. After the pen a scuffle ensues which against suggests Spain are feeling the pressure of what they should've been about to achieve.

It's 3-1 to Belgium on the pen count

[Digby]

Into the 15th minute now, and there's nothing to suggest the ref is out to screw Spain. Belgium are losing the lineout part of the game, but they're more physical in contact so they're able to go forward rather more, other than being limited by their own lack of skills, there's left to right pass on 14:10 on the match clock which would have Owen Farrell shaking his head

[rowan]

Yep, that brings us to about the 17 minute mark, from which point on Spain disintegrated as Belgium built a decisive lead. Linklater had a couple of shots at the posts for Spain, but couldn't land them.

What I hope to see are the Spanish players punished, a complete overhaul of the ENC, and World Rugby forced to sort out this farce of a qualifying system.

What I expect will happen is the Spanish players will get off lightly, perhaps being forced to miss the Portugal playoff (which Spain should win regardless), the ENC's refereeing procedures will be given a slight tweak, and World Rugby won't change this farce of a qualifying system at all.

[Digby]

5th Penalty

Goes against Spain at a scrum, hard to say based on the TV footage, ref gives offside at a scrum against the Spanish 9, when the camera pans out he certainly could have gotten into the position he has going offside.


4-1 to Belgium on the penalty count, and nothing even remotely fishy is going on

[Digby]

6th Penalty

Spain done for dragging down a maul, again I can't see if it's fair or not, but I can say before the maul went down they were trying to collapse it (and failing) so I can see why the ref would be looking at them for a collapsed maul.

5-1 to Belgium on the penalty count, nothing to be worried about. If the whole thing finishes 20-8 in pens then from here on out in a game Belgium won and Spain reportedly lost their cool and got pasted in the scrum that'll be a 15-8 penalty count which doesn't sound remarkable, and so far the ref isn't due any flak whatsoever.

[Digby]

I'm not going back to check how many, but after Belgium kick into the Spanish 22 Spain run maybe 3 switch plays in effect going nowhere before finally clearing. Teams dicking about like this in their 22 tend to lose

[Digby]

7th Penalty

Belgium on the attack, Spain flanker going reasonably at the breakdown, but then seems to grab both arms of the 9. I've got the sound off and the camera doesn't capture what the ref signals, but if he's pinged for playing the 9 then he is rather playing the 9

6-1 in pen count to Belgium, and despite writing this there's nothing to write home about