The Pain in Spain (poll)

[rowan]

Sandy: This report seems to confirm it - The federation said Patrick Roben, president of Rugby Europe's referees' commission, denied the request because the match appointments were done weeks in advance. http://www.tampabay.com/world-rugby-loo ... d7b9149442

Digby: Your efforts are much appreciated. It was a balanced analysis, and almost exactly as I reported, including the penalty count, and I watched most of the game live (hoping desperately Spain would win, I might add). There were three phases

- the first third where Spain couldn't gain control up front, gave away a few penalties, couldn't land their own (2 attempts in the first half, as I recall, and found themselves 0-12 down at the break.

- that overlaps the middle third, where Spain began to get frustrated and infringed with increasing regularity either side of the break, finally leading to a yellow as the ref seemed to be getting fed up too.

- final third where Spain actually started playing to their potential and scored a try that gave them a glimmer of hope - only to concede another (justifiable) penalty immediately afterward and slip back out of range.

In summary, Belgium's underrated pack shocked them by controlling possession for long passages of the game, and Spain never found their rhythm, choosing to blame the ref.

[Sandydragon]

22nd Penalty

A penalty to Spain for a blatant slap down of ball being passed down the line. Had the Ref had recourse to a TMO to see how much the Belgian player was making sure he knocked the ball on I think this would have been a yellow, especially coming after the shoulder charge, but there isn't a TMO.

It's 15-10 on the scoreboard after Spain kick their 3 with 4 minutes left in the match.

And it's 16-6 to Belgium on the penalty count

The video ref made a big point out of that as evidence of bias. In fairness to the ref, he wasn’t that close and it’s easier to spot with the aid of video playback.

[Sandydragon]

Sandy: This report seems to confirm it - The federation said Patrick Roben, president of Rugby Europe's referees' commission, denied the request because the match appointments were done weeks in advance. http://www.tampabay.com/world-rugby-loo ... d7b9149442

Digby: Your efforts are much appreciated. It was a balanced analysis, and almost exactly as I reported, including the penalty count, and I watched most of the game live (hoping desperately Spain would win, I might add). There were three phases

- the first third where Spain couldn't gain control up front, gave away a few penalties, couldn't land their own (2 attempts in the first half, as I recall, and found themselves 0-12 down at the break.

- that overlaps the middle third, where Spain began to get frustrated and infringed with increasing regularity either side of the break, finally leading to a yellow as the ref seemed to be getting fed up too.

- final third where Spain actually started playing to their potential and scored a try that gave them a glimmer of hope - only to concede another (justifiable) penalty immediately afterward and slip back out of range.

In summary, Belgium's underrated pack shocked them by controlling possession for long passages of the game, and Spain never found their rhythm, choosing to blame the ref.

Thanks Rowan. Whilst the refs were allocated a long time in advance, would it have been that difficult to have swapped when the importance of this fixture and the Romanian implications became known.

They let their own ref down.

[rowan]

It will be interesting to hear Mssr Roben's defence, if it is made public. Undoubtedly it was old school thinking - the tickets have been booked and our referees are above suspicion. . . In any case, I think his head should be first on the block. The ENC has simply failed to move with the times, and I'm not sure World Rugby really has either.

[Digby]

Sandy: This report seems to confirm it - The federation said Patrick Roben, president of Rugby Europe's referees' commission, denied the request because the match appointments were done weeks in advance. http://www.tampabay.com/world-rugby-loo ... d7b9149442

Digby: Your efforts are much appreciated. It was a balanced analysis, and almost exactly as I reported, including the penalty count, and I watched most of the game live (hoping desperately Spain would win, I might add). There were three phases

- the first third where Spain couldn't gain control up front, gave away a few penalties, couldn't land their own (2 attempts in the first half, as I recall, and found themselves 0-12 down at the break.

- that overlaps the middle third, where Spain began to get frustrated and infringed with increasing regularity either side of the break, finally leading to a yellow as the ref seemed to be getting fed up too.

- final third where Spain actually started playing to their potential and scored a try that gave them a glimmer of hope - only to concede another (justifiable) penalty immediately afterward and slip back out of range.

In summary, Belgium's underrated pack shocked them by controlling possession for long passages of the game, and Spain never found their rhythm, choosing to blame the ref.

Thanks Rowan. Whilst the refs were allocated a long time in advance, would it have been that difficult to have swapped when the importance of this fixture and the Romanian implications became known.

They let their own ref down.

I'll say again the ref asked to be swapped out once the situation was known, and Roben the French lad in charge of the refs decided not to make a change. Might be worth noting when Rom played in Madrid they had a French Basque ref for their game against Spain who's from the same town as 4 of the Spanish players, and Romania had their complaints after that game, and I think the Russians just had a Spanish ref.

This though is making me laugh - http://www.ferugby.es/noticias2.php?tit ... a-Espa%F1a

The Spanish claiming an infringement of their human rights, they're not letting this go the fruitcakes.

[rowan]

Spanish Feds haven't exactly covered themselves with glory by joining in the ref-bashing instead of disciplining their own players. I used to translate their match reports for a site which no longer exists, all voluntary, and at the end of the season they never even thanked me for it. That was a long time ago, however; when I actually lived in Spain.

[rowan]

n online petition calling for the match in Belgium to be replayed has gained almost 40,000 signatures. England's World Cup winning former coach Clive Woodward, France's back row Marco Tauleigne, Argentina's flyhalf Nicolas Sanchez and ex-Namibia forward Jacques Burger were among those, who backed the petition on change.org. https://www.eurosport.com/rugby/rugby-e ... tory.shtml

[Sandydragon]

Sandy: This report seems to confirm it - The federation said Patrick Roben, president of Rugby Europe's referees' commission, denied the request because the match appointments were done weeks in advance. http://www.tampabay.com/world-rugby-loo ... d7b9149442

Digby: Your efforts are much appreciated. It was a balanced analysis, and almost exactly as I reported, including the penalty count, and I watched most of the game live (hoping desperately Spain would win, I might add). There were three phases

- the first third where Spain couldn't gain control up front, gave away a few penalties, couldn't land their own (2 attempts in the first half, as I recall, and found themselves 0-12 down at the break.

- that overlaps the middle third, where Spain began to get frustrated and infringed with increasing regularity either side of the break, finally leading to a yellow as the ref seemed to be getting fed up too.

- final third where Spain actually started playing to their potential and scored a try that gave them a glimmer of hope - only to concede another (justifiable) penalty immediately afterward and slip back out of range.

In summary, Belgium's underrated pack shocked them by controlling possession for long passages of the game, and Spain never found their rhythm, choosing to blame the ref.

Thanks Rowan. Whilst the refs were allocated a long time in advance, would it have been that difficult to have swapped when the importance of this fixture and the Romanian implications became known.

They let their own ref down.

I'll say again the ref asked to be swapped out once the situation was known, and Roben the French lad in charge of the refs decided not to make a change. Might be worth noting when Rom played in Madrid they had a French Basque ref for their game against Spain who's from the same town as 4 of the Spanish players, and Romania had their complaints after that game, and I think the Russians just had a Spanish ref.

This though is making me laugh - http://www.ferugby.es/noticias2.php?tit ... a-Espa%F1a

The Spanish claiming an infringement of their human rights, they're not letting this go the fruitcakes.

Fair dos to the ref for realising that it wasn’t a great situation to walk into. Still reflects poorly on the organisers for allowing him to be in that position.

[rowan]

Rugby Onslaught has come out with a fairly scathing report on the Spanish team and some of the decisions that have gone their way: https://rugbyonslaught.com/footage-sugg ... decisions/

[Sandydragon]

I did have a bit of sympathy for the Spanish, in that the competition authorities should have ensured that the officials were beyond reproach. There’d were also some poor decisions against the,.

But the assault on the ref and subsequent moaning by the Spanish union frankly has eroded that. The Spanish should be looking into the actions of their players after the final whistle and considering banning some of them who jostled the ref.

[Sandydragon]

Rugby Onslaught has come out with a fairly scathing report on the Spanish team and some of the decisions that have gone their way: https://rugbyonslaught.com/footage-sugg ... decisions/

It’s not a great advert for the standard of refereeing in the second tier of European rugby.

Do they have TMOs at these games?

[Digby]

I did have a bit of sympathy for the Spanish, in that the competition authorities should have ensured that the officials were beyond reproach. There’d were also some poor decisions against the,.

But the assault on the ref and subsequent moaning by the Spanish union frankly has eroded that. The Spanish should be looking into the actions of their players after the final whistle and considering banning some of them who jostled the ref.

I don't know Spain got the fuzzy end of the lollipop, certainly there was nothing along the lines of the disallowed try for Russia against Spain.

[rowan]

I did have a bit of sympathy for the Spanish, in that the competition authorities should have ensured that the officials were beyond reproach. There’d were also some poor decisions against the,.

But the assault on the ref and subsequent moaning by the Spanish union frankly has eroded that. The Spanish should be looking into the actions of their players after the final whistle and considering banning some of them who jostled the ref.

My thoughts exactly. & I'm a big fan of Spanish rugby. I lived there for five years and still regard the place as my third home. I'm also a fan of their burgeoning domestic league. But their reaction to this loss hasn't been within the spirit of rugby at all, regrettably.

[Sandydragon]

I did have a bit of sympathy for the Spanish, in that the competition authorities should have ensured that the officials were beyond reproach. There’d were also some poor decisions against the,.

But the assault on the ref and subsequent moaning by the Spanish union frankly has eroded that. The Spanish should be looking into the actions of their players after the final whistle and considering banning some of them who jostled the ref.

I don't know Spain got the fuzzy end of the lollipop, certainly there was nothing along the lines of the disallowed try for Russia against Spain.

That first try was right in front of the ref. The second one was really unfortunate as there fears the other side of the ruck. Clear as day to anyone else, which is why I asked about a TMO. One of the Russian players was asking for it, but was it available?

[Digby]

I did have a bit of sympathy for the Spanish, in that the competition authorities should have ensured that the officials were beyond reproach. There’d were also some poor decisions against the,.

But the assault on the ref and subsequent moaning by the Spanish union frankly has eroded that. The Spanish should be looking into the actions of their players after the final whistle and considering banning some of them who jostled the ref.

I don't know Spain got the fuzzy end of the lollipop, certainly there was nothing along the lines of the disallowed try for Russia against Spain.

That first try was right in front of the ref. The second one was really unfortunate as there fears the other side of the ruck. Clear as day to anyone else, which is why I asked about a TMO. One of the Russian players was asking for it, but was it available?

I've not asked, but I've also not noticed any referrals to the TMO in these qualifying games which strongly suggests an aanswer

[rowan]

To be honest, this entire fiasco might just be part of European rugby's growing pains as top flight competition becomes more professional and competitive. Brazil's progress in South America notwithstanding, there is no other region which is developing as quickly and Europe now has by far the most credible World Cup qualifying group of all the confederations. Practically any one of the first division teams could conceivably get through (including Germany when they're not torn apart by a sponsorship row). & the fall-out from Spain's shock defeat in Belgium has certainly put the sport on the back pages of continental European newspapers. Last time I looked there were actually two rugby stories on the back page of El Pais - normally reserved exclusively for football and basketball. So it can't be a bad thing when the sport has attained the status that losses are felt so deeply and have such an impact beyond the rugby community.

[rowan]

Well, well, well . . . nothing confirmed, but it has come to light that Belgium may have been fielding an ineligible player this season, and even though he didn't play against Spain, if it is proved, Belgium will be disqualified and all points against them declared null and void, meaning that Spain would regain 2nd place. This almost certainly wouldn't have come to light but for the Spain-Belgium controversy. Again, if this turns out to be true, brace yourself for one hell of a Romanian backlash.

Update: Germany coach Pablo Lemoine revealed the situation in an interview with Agustín Basso on El Show del Rugby in Montevideo. The interview in its entirety (in Spanish) can be seen here.

http://www.espectador.com/Deportes/pabl ... -del-rubgy

So can World Rugby actually force Romania to go through the inter-continental playoff and (probably) repechage now, having already announced their qualification? What a fiasco!

My guess is, if it is proved, World Rugby will take the easiest and most sensible option, and simply fine Belgium and overturn their result against Germany. That will completely incense the Spanish, of course, but there is no way they can take Romania's spot away from them now.

[rowan]

& now we've got a Ukranian site declaring that Romanian player Sione Faka'osilea was not eligible as he played for Tonga vs. Kenya in 7s'. A new scandal?

https://rugger.info/news/19292

At this rate we could have Spain heading to the World Cup and Russia heading to Samoa for the playoff!!

[rowan]

Pretty sure the Sione Faka'osilea situation has actually been addressed before and that he is in the clear with World Rugby, having undergone the necessary stand down and met the other criteria. Not sure why that Ukranian site decided to run a story on it at this time.

[rowan]

I think there may be something in the claims about the ineligible Belgian player versus German, but given it took World Rugby six months to do anything about the Tahitian incident, I won't be holding my breath for any news on that front. & what seems certain is that there is no way they can take away Romania's World Cup place now unless proof were to arise that the Romanians themselves had broken the rules - and the Faka'osilea matter appears to be a non-issue.

[rowan]

First postponement:

Rugby Europe Board of Directors held a conference call this evening to share and discuss the elements related to the Spain / Belgium game, Rugby World Cup 2019 Qualifier.

Rugby Europe General Secretary recalled the facts and submitted the reports of the different people and groups who have been consulted.

Board members unanimously requested additional information (in particular those provided straight ahead of the meeting to World Rugby) before taking an accurate decision.

A new meeting has been planned for Thursday March 29th in the afternoon.

http://www.rugbyeurope.eu/rugby-europe- ... 4-26032018

[Lizard]

Have you got a link or anything about Faka’osilea’s previous clearance? If he played 7s for Tonga, and did not then become a Romanian citizen and play 7s olympics qualifiers for them, I don’t see how he could be eligible.

[rowan]

No, I don't have anything, and can't find anything either. What I did find were a bunch of stories speculating there might be a genuine case against Faka’osilea. It appears that World Rugby may have given a clearance but did so erroneously, possibly because the Romanian union itself was not aware Faka’osilea had played for Tonga in 2012-2013. Had they known this, they could have easily cleared him through the Olympic loop-hole in 2015, when there were six separate tournaments he could have represented them at. But that does not appear to have been the case. This looks to have been a massive oversight and may yet prove disastrous for the Oaks. Tahiti were disqualified for the same offense. So almost certainly Romania would suffer the same fate, putting Spain into the World Cup and Russia into the playoff against Portugal to determine Samoa's opponent for the inter-continental playoff. It's going to be a very interesting year as the ENC and World Rugby try to sort this lot out. & I sorely suspect none of it would have come to light had Spain not lost to Belgium under such acrimonious circumstances...

[Lizard]

It’s a fucking shambles, and is a bad look for rugby globally. I can understand that some tier 3 or even tier 2 national unions are effectively amateur, volunteer organisations (in spirit if not technically) and to some extent have to rely on players’ honesty. But given that teams have to provide team sheets for every test and, presumably, World Series 7s tournaments, can’t World Rugby have some sort of centralised database for ease of checking this stuff?

I would bet that a close examination of other Oceania teams (outside their big 3) and Asia (outside Japan) would reveal similar issues.

[rowan]

Again, I see this as part of the sport's growing pains. & the fact it has fairly strict eligibility rules is to its credit. It'll also be refreshing to see a new face at the World Cup - although Spain isn't exactly new, of course, having participated 20 years ago. & you'd like to see a new team get there on merit, which Spain frankly won't have done. I'll certainly have mixed feelings about them if they do end up in the World Cup as a result of either Belgium's slip up or Romania's. Incidentally, I said this had all come about as a result of the Spain-Belgium controversy, but the news site which broke the story about Faka’osilea appears to be Ukraine-based and Russian language, so that looks to be more a case of the Russians trying to find a way back into the reckoning. . .