The Pain in Spain (poll)

[Sandydragon]

If the replay goes ahead, 2 possible scenarios could embarrass World Rugby further:

1 Belgium doesn't take it seriously, trots out a B team, and infuriates Romania.

2 Belgium goes all out to prove its win was fully-merited, and does it again. Certainly could happen. Their pack is underrated and dominated possession against Los Leones.

I think World Rugby may come to rue this decision. Anything barring a comfortable win for Spain over a full-strength Belgium is only going to exacerbate the situation.

I’m not sure it would embarrass World Rugby. Provided the ref is neutral,in all respects, then any result would be fine. If Spain do win then Romania will be miffed, but that’s a risk they take by agreeing to he rematch in the first place. If Belgium do win, I imagine many officials will breath a sigh of relief.

[rowan]

We'll have to wait and see, I guess. But I'm pretty sure we're going to wind up with at least one thoroughly outraged party regardless. The last mentioned report seems to have been a little premature (a possible outcome worded as evident fact, presumably for the sake of sensationalism), as no official announcement has been made by World Rugby on its findings so soon.

[Digby]

If the replay goes ahead, 2 possible scenarios could embarrass World Rugby further:

1 Belgium doesn't take it seriously, trots out a B team, and infuriates Romania.

2 Belgium goes all out to prove its win was fully-merited, and does it again. Certainly could happen. Their pack is underrated and dominated possession against Los Leones.

I think World Rugby may come to rue this decision. Anything barring a comfortable win for Spain over a full-strength Belgium is only going to exacerbate the situation.

I’m not sure it would embarrass World Rugby. Provided the ref is neutral,in all respects, then any result would be fine. If Spain do win then Romania will be miffed, but that’s a risk they take by agreeing to he rematch in the first place. If Belgium do win, I imagine many officials will breath a sigh of relief.

I'd imagine Romania will simply ask for their own replay of their match Vs Spain given they were unhappy with the referee in that match.

[rowan]

Then Russia should ask for a replay of its match with Spain What a Pandora's box this could open!

[Digby]

Was it just the 1 or was it 2 tries for Russia missed against Spain?

[rowan]

I saw one but miss part of the match. Definitely saw the second but didn't think an awful lot of it at the time. Ref was unsighted. These things happen. It's only Spain's sour grapes over the Belgium match that have brought all these controversies to the fore.

[rowan]

Some serious ranting on FB going on over the officiating in the Turkish league this afternoon. Maybe they should ask for World Rugby to intervene and order all matches replayed

[Sandydragon]

Wales should ask for a replay of a certain match against the All blacks in the 70s when a clear bit of cheating denied us a win.

And the less said about the farce in France last year the better.

Sometimes you need to accept results and get on with the game. In future though, where there is a clear clash of interest with a referee, there needs to be a swap of officials. If nothing else but to protect the ref.

[rowan]

Yes, I am sure the ENC has learnt its lesson on that count. Seems to be an organisation stuck in the amateur era while certain nations have moved on and fully embraced professionalism.

Meanwhile, the All Blacks will apparently be requesting a replay of their 1905 clash with Wales when Bob Deans was scandalously denied a potentially match-winning try by an unsighted ref who was still chugging down the field well behind play.

[Digby]

Sometimes you need to accept results and get on with the game. In future though, where there is a clear clash of interest with a referee, there needs to be a swap of officials. If nothing else but to protect the ref.

So all SH refs in the 6N and all NH refs in the RC?

[rowan]

Rugby Europe has postponed the relegation game Germany vs. Portugal (scheduled April 28th), without giving out a new date. Apparently the World Cup playoff between Spain & Portugal has also been put on hold. Strange fixture, this one. Why should the 2nd division winner be in the playoff, instead of just earning their place in the top division instead - as Morocco has done in Africa this year?

[Lizard]

Rugby Europe has postponed the relegation game Germany vs. Portugal (scheduled April 28th), without giving out a new date. Apparently the World Cup playoff between Spain & Portugal has also been put on hold. Strange fixture, this one. Why should the 2nd division winner be in the playoff, instead of just earning their place in the top division instead - as Morocco has done in Africa this year?

I think this is pure marketing. If the div. 2 winner gets a playoff then you can claim all the div. 2 games as “RWC Qualifiers” thus boosting the numbers for RWC media bumpf saying “there were x qualifying games involving y teams.”

[rowan]

Undoubtedly. Seems a bit Mickey Mouse to me though. Mind you, so does the whole qualifying process these days . . .

Meanwhile: According to rugger.info Spain is in trouble. The Russian news site claims that not only Mathieu Bélie but some other French born players were not eligible for Spain. https://rugger.info/news/19561

[Digby]

I think we just need to wait and see what comes out, there are so many reports on so many nations (Spain, Russia, Romania, Germany, Belgium...) fielding ineligible players that present their unions with a variety of defences we'll have to wait and see what's made of it all.

I remain surprised there has been so little support for the referee in the Belgium game from other refs. I really didn't think they'd be so happy to see an attack on one of their own, and too we're talking about a level where most refs lose money touring around the world to officiate games. They'll get most of their expenses back, but their pay and what they can claim isn't the same as at the highest levels, it wouldn't take a lot for a number of them to think bollocks to this I might as well focus on my real career and/or family.

In this particular situation there are some striking failings at a number of levels, including perhaps in part by the referee, though any failings by the referee are small compared to some of the acts involved in all this. And I'll note again having watched the game (albeit on 2x speed) I really wasn't that alarmed by the officiating.

[rowan]

Yes, he appears to have been effectively demoted and already missed at least one high profile game in the French championship which he would no doubt have been looking forward to. We don't agree on much but we do appear to agree that his performance really wasn't that bad in the Spain-Belgium game and now he has been made a scapegoat, with many reports internationally merely stating as fact that he had a "terrible" game, when you can be pretty sure the journalists writing that crap have never actually watched it.

[Digby]

The review of the performance for the Belgium V Spain game purports to show the ref had a shocker. Part of the the report card highlights instances where the reviewer thinks the ref made minor or major errors, minor are shown in yellow dots and major in red (and if you're colour blind it's just tough for all I know) and the report for the game in question is red, very, very red. Though it wasn't all red before Rolland got involved, it was a mix of yellow and red, and somehow after it went to Rolland for review it got massively altered before the final version went out. Now maybe Rolland just had a massive problem with this game, if so to an extent fair enough, but if that's the case there are many, many more games were Rolland should be having massive problems and there just aren't. Which does start one thinking what Rolland has done is part of a political appeasement process, heavily influenced by the French director of operations at Rugby Europe Michel Arpaillange. In an entirely unrelated commentary on this Arpaillange is big mates with the head of the Spanish union, and oddly if you see some of the comments being used to criticise the ref in the media those comments are attributable to Arpaillange.

There's worse than the above floating around in all this. But some of the events are for those involved to decide to speak on, or not. I hope they will as I'd characterise myself as furious over some of the actions taken and comments given, much of it is pathetic and those involved should be ashamed (and even should be shamed)

[Sandydragon]

The review of the performance for the Belgium V Spain game purports to show the ref had a shocker. Part of the the report card highlights instances where the reviewer thinks the ref made minor or major errors, minor are shown in yellow dots and major in red (and if you're colour blind it's just tough for all I know) and the report for the game in question is red, very, very red. Though it wasn't all red before Rolland got involved, it was a mix of yellow and red, and somehow after it went to Rolland for review it got massively altered before the final version went out. Now maybe Rolland just had a massive problem with this game, if so to an extent fair enough, but if that's the case there are many, many more games were Rolland should be having massive problems and there just aren't. Which does start one thinking what Rolland has done is part of a political appeasement process, heavily influenced by the French director of operations at Rugby Europe Michel Arpaillange. In an entirely unrelated commentary on this Arpaillange is big mates with the head of the Spanish union, and oddly if you see some of the comments being used to criticise the ref in the media those comments are attributable to Arpaillange.

There's worse than the above floating around in all this. But some of the events are for those involved to decide to speak on, or not. I hope they will as I'd characterise myself as furious over some of the actions taken and comments given, much of it is pathetic and those involved should be ashamed (and even should be shamed)

The problem is that even if you watch the top refs, they make mistakes. That fella wasn’t a top ref so he made more than a few, but looking at some of the highlights from other games at that level, he isn’t alone in that.

The major issue is whether he deliberately aided Belgium. Which is nearly impossible to prove just based watching him on the field and is a position he never should have been put in.

With all the wider issues involving player eligibility, a sensible approach would have been to just let results stand and get the house in order for next time.

[rowan]

Yes, I wanted Spain to qualify, but not like this, and it will be a shame if Romania does miss out either because this match is replayed (and Spain wins) or due to the ineligibility issue. I would accept the latter scenario, however, whereas the former would just disgust me if it were to come about. I think the Spanish Federation has displayed a surprising degree of immaturity as well. No suggestion of them having condemned the reactions of their players after losing to Belgium yet. & calling for a replay makes the All Blacks' claims over the 1995 RWC final seem like the epitome of graceful defeat. Of course, it was a Russian-language rugby site that drew attention to Romania's eligibility issues, and the Germans, I believe, who made the claim against Belgium.

[Digby]

I've got the review now of the match official, but I don't know I can be bothered watching the game back again to see if I agree with the review as presented is a fair representation. As it's written they've basically ended the career of the referee, though I don't know he'd want to continue after all this, he must be sick to the back teeth to be hung out like the sacrificial lamb, and still no support from other referees which I still find shocking. World Rugby's stipulation to Rugby Europe is there should be a replay, and if Rugby Europe don't sanction a replay then WR reserve the right to do so. World Rugby would like everyone to agree with this so rugby can present a united front to the media, or to quote big Billy Beaumont 'It was stressed during the meeting and I am sure you will also agree, that it is in the interest of the sport that we all resolve this matter expeditiously and to do all that is possible to avoid the unhelpful optics of a public display of non unity.' - wtf is the world coming to when Beaumont is referring to optics, and even why does a supposed straight forward no nonsense bloke care what it looks like rather than what is it?

The above is separate to the other part of this which is the ineligible players, and that hearing is about ready to kick off I think with the various federations having submitted the arguments they will be making to the panel, and everyone has lawyers. Spain have even appointed a Dublin based lawyer who probably meets IRB staff in the pub, no doubt Spain have done this to avoid any perception of bias!

[rowan]

Thanks for the update. Haven't seen any updates in the press myself. Seems like they're fairly determined to get Spain in there, however. But this has been a wake up call for World Rugby, which needs to take more control over its RWC qualifying process in future rather than just outsourcing it to the regional associations. I wonder if the proposed re-match will still go ahead of Romania are expelled due to the eligibility issue . . .

[Puja]

I've got the review now of the match official, but I don't know I can be bothered watching the game back again to see if I agree with the review as presented is a fair representation. As it's written they've basically ended the career of the referee, though I don't know he'd want to continue after all this, he must be sick to the back teeth to be hung out like the sacrificial lamb, and still no support from other referees which I still find shocking. World Rugby's stipulation to Rugby Europe is there should be a replay, and if Rugby Europe don't sanction a replay then WR reserve the right to do so. World Rugby would like everyone to agree with this so rugby can present a united front to the media, or to quote big Billy Beaumont 'It was stressed during the meeting and I am sure you will also agree, that it is in the interest of the sport that we all resolve this matter expeditiously and to do all that is possible to avoid the unhelpful optics of a public display of non unity.' - wtf is the world coming to when Beaumont is referring to optics, and even why does a supposed straight forward no nonsense bloke care what it looks like rather than what is it?

The above is separate to the other part of this which is the ineligible players, and that hearing is about ready to kick off I think with the various federations having submitted the arguments they will be making to the panel, and everyone has lawyers. Spain have even appointed a Dublin based lawyer who probably meets IRB staff in the pub, no doubt Spain have done this to avoid any perception of bias!

Thanks for the update Diggers - really appreciated. How long do you reckon they're going to take over the eligibility stuff?

Puja

[Digby]

I've got the review now of the match official, but I don't know I can be bothered watching the game back again to see if I agree with the review as presented is a fair representation. As it's written they've basically ended the career of the referee, though I don't know he'd want to continue after all this, he must be sick to the back teeth to be hung out like the sacrificial lamb, and still no support from other referees which I still find shocking. World Rugby's stipulation to Rugby Europe is there should be a replay, and if Rugby Europe don't sanction a replay then WR reserve the right to do so. World Rugby would like everyone to agree with this so rugby can present a united front to the media, or to quote big Billy Beaumont 'It was stressed during the meeting and I am sure you will also agree, that it is in the interest of the sport that we all resolve this matter expeditiously and to do all that is possible to avoid the unhelpful optics of a public display of non unity.' - wtf is the world coming to when Beaumont is referring to optics, and even why does a supposed straight forward no nonsense bloke care what it looks like rather than what is it?

The above is separate to the other part of this which is the ineligible players, and that hearing is about ready to kick off I think with the various federations having submitted the arguments they will be making to the panel, and everyone has lawyers. Spain have even appointed a Dublin based lawyer who probably meets IRB staff in the pub, no doubt Spain have done this to avoid any perception of bias!

Thanks for the update Diggers - really appreciated. How long do you reckon they're going to take over the eligibility stuff?

Puja

I don't quite know. So far as I can follow the panel is now open for business, they're hearing today for instance from the ref on both the subject of bias as a witness and on his treatment post game as a victim. Tomorrow I think they'll have evidence from the various unions on their player eligibility issues. Though the email chains on this are numerous, go back and forth a lot, and are often in Spanish which isn't a lot of use to me, I was able to read some of the comments made by the Spanish players as they at least were in French, point being I'm not even following all of the info I have seen, both foreign language and legal language issues on my part, and there's a lot I've not even looked at - who knew once the lawyers got involved there'd be a huge bump into the amount of documentation to review?

The panel as an aside is made up of two English judges and one Saffer judge, and they're meeting in Paris, presumably someone likes a restaurant there. Sir James Dingemans (Chair), Sir Peter Fraser and Mr Justice Lex Mpati.

[rowan]

Though the email chains on this are numerous, go back and forth a lot, and are often in Spanish which isn't a lot of use to me

You sound like the Julian Assange of the rugby world I can help with the Spanish, if necessary. I'm close to fluent. French, too, if necessary, though I'm not so strong in that language & I think there are more qualified members aboard than me.

[Digby]

The problem there is without checking out what I was posting up I wouldn't know what I was posting up.

[Digby]

Decisions in on the actions of the Spanish players toward the officials, some lucky boys among their number

http://www.rugbyeurope.eu/decision-rugb ... -committee