Wasps vs Saints

[Oakboy]

He probably wont take Cips - and thats our loss - but Wade is making a case that is very hard to ignore. His defence and general physicality have improved enormously this season.

What about Robson? I think he deserves a decent chance which means starting 2 or 3 games.

I find Eddie's selections a bit odd with hindsight. Few, if any, of us had a clue about Graham but I, for one, bow to his choice. Conversely, what is there about Francis that puts him ahead of Twelvetrees, for example?

Top of my list, though, would be either Cipriani or Launchbury. Both are the best English players in their position. It took Kruis being found out against top NZ opposition and his subsequent falling off of form to get Launch into a starting slot. It makes me wonder how well we could have played if injury or loss of form to the two Fs had given Cips a chance.

What that leads to is wondering how many of Eddie's selections are similarly flawed. He seems to turn up at so many matches that he must have a comprehensive base knowledge of all AP players. How then did the 6N go so disasterously wrong? It was not just a minor flaw or a bit of a hiccup with tactics. Something was fundamentally wrong with preparation leading to under-performance by 10-20%.

I think the most important factor in the upcoming SA tour is assessing Jones.

[Banquo]

Personally, I wish Eddie had made a concerted effort to convert Cips to fullback when he took over. Could have added a different dimension to our attack, a quality playmaker at 15 is something England have rarely had. He showed today he’s still got the athleticism for fb. A nonsense that a player that talented will probably leave England with so few caps.

mostly down to Cips and a bad injury. I don't think he'd have been a great 15 though, and whilst having a playmaking 15 gives you something, I'd want them to be a running threat more...Le Roux, at his best, offers both. How many international sides do have a quality playmaking 15? Personally, I think the trade off is too difficult, generally.

Without injury, and perhaps something different in his mindset, I think he would have been a great 10, as opposed to being a very good one from time to time.

[Banquo]

. Conversely, what is there about Francis that puts him ahead of Twelvetrees, for example?

.

Odd. I thought everyone had accepted that Billy's ship was long gone.

[morepork]

Personally, I wish Eddie had made a concerted effort to convert Cips to fullback when he took over. Could have added a different dimension to our attack, a quality playmaker at 15 is something England have rarely had. He showed today he’s still got the athleticism for fb. A nonsense that a player that talented will probably leave England with so few caps.

mostly down to Cips and a bad injury. I don't think he'd have been a great 15 though, and whilst having a playmaking 15 gives you something, I'd want them to be a running threat more...Le Roux, at his best, offers both. How many international sides do have a quality playmaking 15? Personally, I think the trade off is too difficult, generally.

Without injury, and perhaps something different in his mindset, I think he would have been a great 10, as opposed to being a very good one from time to time.

Dagg
Smith
MacKenzie.

[Mellsblue]

. Conversely, what is there about Francis that puts him ahead of Twelvetrees, for example?

.

Odd. I thought everyone had accepted that Billy's ship was long gone.

Only because Atkinson is now the Messiah. Sadly, for him, he will be replaced by Le Bourgeois this time next year. The cries of 'Boooooooooj' will ring round Twickers. The Goldington Rd finishing school goes from strength to strength.

[Banquo]

Personally, I wish Eddie had made a concerted effort to convert Cips to fullback when he took over. Could have added a different dimension to our attack, a quality playmaker at 15 is something England have rarely had. He showed today he’s still got the athleticism for fb. A nonsense that a player that talented will probably leave England with so few caps.

mostly down to Cips and a bad injury. I don't think he'd have been a great 15 though, and whilst having a playmaking 15 gives you something, I'd want them to be a running threat more...Le Roux, at his best, offers both. How many international sides do have a quality playmaking 15? Personally, I think the trade off is too difficult, generally.

Without injury, and perhaps something different in his mindset, I think he would have been a great 10, as opposed to being a very good one from time to time.

Dagg
Smith
MacKenzie.

None of them are playmakers, or at least in the way I understand it....offering themselves regularly as a first receiver. Definitely not Dagg or Smuff.

In fact, even naming Dagg as such means we are clearly on a different wavelength,

[Timbo]

Personally, I wish Eddie had made a concerted effort to convert Cips to fullback when he took over. Could have added a different dimension to our attack, a quality playmaker at 15 is something England have rarely had. He showed today he’s still got the athleticism for fb. A nonsense that a player that talented will probably leave England with so few caps.

mostly down to Cips and a bad injury. I don't think he'd have been a great 15 though, and whilst having a playmaking 15 gives you something, I'd want them to be a running threat more...Le Roux, at his best, offers both. How many international sides do have a quality playmaking 15? Personally, I think the trade off is too difficult, generally.

Without injury, and perhaps something different in his mindset, I think he would have been a great 10, as opposed to being a very good one from time to time.

I’d say ‘partly’ down to Cips and injury. He’s been playing good, consistent rugby for 5 years now. He should have had a run at the 10/15 shirt at some point in that time imo.

It’s actually watching Le Roux that makes me think that I would have loved to have seen what Cips could have done at 15. When Cips gets out into those wider channels he’s definitely a running threat - a threat in all respects. At the very least he’d have upped our backline intelligence and footballing levels.

[Banquo]

Personally, I wish Eddie had made a concerted effort to convert Cips to fullback when he took over. Could have added a different dimension to our attack, a quality playmaker at 15 is something England have rarely had. He showed today he’s still got the athleticism for fb. A nonsense that a player that talented will probably leave England with so few caps.

mostly down to Cips and a bad injury. I don't think he'd have been a great 15 though, and whilst having a playmaking 15 gives you something, I'd want them to be a running threat more...Le Roux, at his best, offers both. How many international sides do have a quality playmaking 15? Personally, I think the trade off is too difficult, generally.

Without injury, and perhaps something different in his mindset, I think he would have been a great 10, as opposed to being a very good one from time to time.

I’d say ‘partly’ down to Cips and injury. He’s been playing good, consistent rugby for 5 years now. He should have had a run at the 10/15 shirt at some point in that time imo.

It’s actually watching Le Roux that makes me think that I would have loved to have seen what Cips could have done at 15. When Cips gets out into those wider channels he’s definitely a running threat - a threat in all respects. At the very least he’d have upped our backline intelligence and footballing levels.

Not sure he has earned it. I do think that but for injury and subsequent dubious management of it, it could well have turned out different,He could have been a great 10, but still not at all convinced he'd have made an all round 15- at his pre-injury pace, he would have been a serious running threat, its true.

Le Roux is very creative, but has great 15 running lines, and doesn't really overdo the playmaking; an issue with having a 15 'in the line' as a playmaker, is that you lose the incursions that an experienced and excellent runner from deep gives you (I know its obvious, but), and that heavily denudes a backline, and means you have to compensate somehow. Just a different style I suppose, but one that doesnt sit well for me- Le Roux does offer a different dimension, its true, but without losing the threat of a deep runner, and in part that's because Wasps have three playmakers inside, plus Daly off his wing....its a very talented attacking back line.

[twitchy]

Wasps work because they have been put together cleverly, I can't see england playing like wasps under eddie.

[Digby]

It doesn't hurt the Wasps play makers they have the most lethal finisher on the right wing.

Cips might have made it as a 15, but not so much after he lost his pace in the ankle break. He wouldn't have been the solid defensive 15 many prefer though, and that would be more an issue in England than for some

[morepork]

mostly down to Cips and a bad injury. I don't think he'd have been a great 15 though, and whilst having a playmaking 15 gives you something, I'd want them to be a running threat more...Le Roux, at his best, offers both. How many international sides do have a quality playmaking 15? Personally, I think the trade off is too difficult, generally.

Without injury, and perhaps something different in his mindset, I think he would have been a great 10, as opposed to being a very good one from time to time.

Dagg
Smith
MacKenzie.

None of them are playmakers, or at least in the way I understand it....offering themselves regularly as a first receiver. Definitely not Dagg or Smuff.

In fact, even naming Dagg as such means we are clearly on a different wavelength,

All 3 offer them selves at 1st when, you know, defending.

[Spiffy]

It doesn't hurt the Wasps play makers they have the most lethal finisher on the right wing.

Cips might have made it as a 15, but not so much after he lost his pace in the ankle break. He wouldn't have been the solid defensive 15 many prefer though, and that would be more an issue in England than for some

Cipriani was really fast before he mangled his ankle, and, like many others, I don't think he has that early searing pace anymore. Still, he more than makes it up with playmaking ability. I was surprised to see him have the gas to overhaul Reinach, a really pacy player, from behind today. When it boils down to it, he's probably still faster than Farrell or Ford. I do not see him as a 15 at all , but he is a hell of a good 10, and can do things that Faz and Ford can not ( but then so can Marcus Smith and Lozowski on a good day).
I have always liked Ford, but in the grand scheme of things, I do think he is losing ground to other 10s in the PL. It seems a long time since he really bossed a game. Farrell is the safe option, but neither he nor Ford seem able to light up a game at international level any more.

[twitchy]

It doesn't hurt the Wasps play makers they have the most lethal finisher on the right wing.

Cips might have made it as a 15, but not so much after he lost his pace in the ankle break. He wouldn't have been the solid defensive 15 many prefer though, and that would be more an issue in England than for some

Cipriani was really fast before he mangled his ankle, and, like many others, I don't think he has that early searing pace anymore. Still, he more than makes it up with playmaking ability. I was surprised to see him have the gas to overhaul Reinach, a really pacy player, from behind today. When it boils down to it, he's probably still faster than Farrell or Ford. I do not see him as a 15 at all , but he is a hell of a good 10, and can do things that Faz and Ford can not ( but then so can Marcus Smith and Lozowski on a good day).
I have always liked Ford, but in the grand scheme of things, I do think he is losing ground to other 10s in the PL. It seems a long time since he really bossed a game. Farrell is the safe option, but neither he nor Ford seem able to light up a game at international level any more.

All aboard the marcus smith hype train.

[Oakboy]

. Conversely, what is there about Francis that puts him ahead of Twelvetrees, for example?

.

Odd. I thought everyone had accepted that Billy's ship was long gone.

Me included! That's the point. This weekend, 36 looked far better than Francis, IMO. So, how the hell does Eddie rate Francis so highly?

[Beasties]

It doesn't hurt the Wasps play makers they have the most lethal finisher on the right wing.

Cips might have made it as a 15, but not so much after he lost his pace in the ankle break. He wouldn't have been the solid defensive 15 many prefer though, and that would be more an issue in England than for some

Cips at 15 would require the whole team to be built round him. He's nowhere under the high ball and his tackling, whilst vastly imrpoved from a few years ago, is simply not up to FB standard or even close when it comes to last ditch head on tackling. Even Goode would fill me with more confidence. Wanting him to be Eng's WLR is to simply ignore WLR's ability in the tackle or under the high ball.

[fivepointer]

. Conversely, what is there about Francis that puts him ahead of Twelvetrees, for example?

.

Odd. I thought everyone had accepted that Billy's ship was long gone.

Me included! That's the point. This weekend, 36 looked far better than Francis, IMO. So, how the hell does Eddie rate Francis so highly?

Not so sure he does. I doubt he'll go to SA. 36 has played well and seems to have found some much needed composure but his moment has probably gone.

One player who is never discussed for England had another storming game yesterday - Jamie Gibson. In a poor side he has stood out all season.
There are plenty of good back row options available for SA but is Gibson worth looking at?

[twitchy]

Absolutely he is looks like a complete nuisance to play against. Always involved.

[Digby]

It doesn't hurt the Wasps play makers they have the most lethal finisher on the right wing.

Cips might have made it as a 15, but not so much after he lost his pace in the ankle break. He wouldn't have been the solid defensive 15 many prefer though, and that would be more an issue in England than for some

Cips at 15 would require the whole team to be built round him. He's nowhere under the high ball and his tackling, whilst vastly imrpoved from a few years ago, is simply not up to FB standard or even close when it comes to last ditch head on tackling. Even Goode would fill me with more confidence. Wanting him to be Eng's WLR is to simply ignore WLR's ability in the tackle or under the high ball.

You don't tend to get many last ditch head on tackles at 15, and how he'd have improved under the high ball with time there I don't know. A moot point given we've seldom looked for that skill set at 15, we've had the odd look at Goode with different requirements for him to come up into the line, but it's never been a main thrust under any of our coaches.

I wouldn't though be alarmed with WLR at 15 for England. Though I'd agree it'd be more an issue in England given we are more often than not conservative in our thinking, and my being happy with a WLR 15 isn't the norm

[twitchy]

Get woodward in at 15 I reckon.

[Beasties]

Aye, WLR's more than adequate under the high ball and at tackling FTAOD.

[Beasties]

Faz outside Cips fills me with horror. No way would that work. Not sure anyone's calling for it though.

[Banquo]

Dagg
Smith
MacKenzie.

None of them are playmakers, or at least in the way I understand it....offering themselves regularly as a first receiver. Definitely not Dagg or Smuff.

In fact, even naming Dagg as such means we are clearly on a different wavelength,

All 3 offer them selves at 1st when, you know, defending.

I’m sure that makes sense to you.

[Banquo]

It doesn't hurt the Wasps play makers they have the most lethal finisher on the right wing.

Cips might have made it as a 15, but not so much after he lost his pace in the ankle break. He wouldn't have been the solid defensive 15 many prefer though, and that would be more an issue in England than for some

Cips at 15 would require the whole team to be built round him. He's nowhere under the high ball and his tackling, whilst vastly imrpoved from a few years ago, is simply not up to FB standard or even close when it comes to last ditch head on tackling. Even Goode would fill me with more confidence. Wanting him to be Eng's WLR is to simply ignore WLR's ability in the tackle or under the high ball.

Aye

[Oakboy]

Faz outside Cips fills me with horror. No way would that work. Not sure anyone's calling for it though.

I think Cipriani is our best FH, without question. However, I find it hard to disagree with the gist of Jones's statement that he's a No 1 or not in. I'd interpret that as meaning that if Cipriani is in the squad Ford and Farrell are not. I think Cipriani would fit with Lozowski or Slade at 12 but he would be totally stymied by Farrell at 12.

Where I get a bit of an issue with Jones (in view of his stance on Cipriani) is that he is so strongly in favour of Ford and Farrell in the same starting XV (apparently). I still think that Farrell at 12 reduces Ford's effectiveness as a 10 and therefore the overall performance of the team.

[Digby]

It doesn't hurt the Wasps play makers they have the most lethal finisher on the right wing.

Cips might have made it as a 15, but not so much after he lost his pace in the ankle break. He wouldn't have been the solid defensive 15 many prefer though, and that would be more an issue in England than for some

Cips at 15 would require the whole team to be built round him. He's nowhere under the high ball and his tackling, whilst vastly imrpoved from a few years ago, is simply not up to FB standard or even close when it comes to last ditch head on tackling. Even Goode would fill me with more confidence. Wanting him to be Eng's WLR is to simply ignore WLR's ability in the tackle or under the high ball.

Aye

Why would he need the whole team built around him? (Not that it's even going to be looked at now he's older, slower and with little experience at 15 just as a point of interest)

His actual games at 15 back in the day didn't have Wasps built around him. Goode mostly didn't have England built around him bar 2-3 games where he was the first receiver on the blind side splitting the field with Faz, and even that's a stretch to claim the team was built around Goode.