Heresy

[Which Tyler]

Is Rob Baxter good enough for the England role?
And I don't just mean "prove it with another team"



He seems very good at getting the most from average players; and can bring players to the fringe of international rugby; he's proven this with Francis, LCD, Williams, Armand, Ewers, Simmonds, Maunder, Townsend, Slade, Nowell; whilst even the likes of Jonny Hill, Woodburn and Devoto getting mentions in dispatches.
But can he actually take a player and make them great; of the above list, I'd say that LCD, Simmonds, Maunder, Slade have the potential to be international greats, whilst others (Williams, Nowell, Devoto) have the potential to be solid international regulars; of the lot of them, only Nowell can really claim to have fulfilled his potential so far.
LCD has been let down a little by continued question marks over his throwing (about which I know less than nothing) - he's a 24 year old hooker, he has time, but should be further along by now.
Simmonds has been let down by being played out of position, he's a specialist 7 through age grade, with 1 season at 8, whilst playing alongside 2 backrow partners who both seem better suited to 8 than he - he's young and has time.
Maunder just hasn't had the game time he needs to progress - he's young as has time, but should be further along by now.
Slade has been messed about positionally; never quite earning trust at FH, and never being tried in his most "natural" position of IC - he seems to have stalled, he's been on the scene since the last RWC, he's 25, he's been selected 11 times, and has only impressed in one of those (his debut) - he's fast running out of time to be anything other than emergency injury cover at international level; despite his messianic status a couple of years ago. He's 3 days younger than Ford...

It's good for his club - he can get these players to almost-international standard; meaning that they're very good, without missing chunks of the season; but an international coach's job is to take those players and have them maximise their potential.


My apologies if this is not particularly well thought out; it's only really ocurred to me over the last couple of days in a discussion over on the Bath forum. I still haven't decided if I agree with the theory or not, let alone whether I have enough to defend it to others.

[Raggs]

He's developed players well, but has been in close contact with them for seasons, a luxury not offered to the international coach.

I'd want to see how he does with a minor role, or head coach of another nation, before getting the England job.

[twitchy]

No, keep him at exeter.

Next question.

[Mellsblue]

I think you’re being a little harsh on him with regards quite a few of those players. LCD has had injury issues. Slade had a run a 10 but couldn’t nail it down and has been consistently used at 13 since. It also may be that he knew Simmonds Jnr was coming through and decided that Exeter’s best use of resources was to have Slade as a 13. Slade’s lack of impact at test level is also as much about making silly mistakes and not looking mentally tough enough rather than Baxter not improving him to the required level.
Francis, Williams and Hepburn are all lower league and/or Prem academy rejects and all are now there or there abouts with their national sides. I wouldn’t be suprised to see both Williams and Hepburn become regular internationals.
I don’t get why he brought in Nic White when he had Chudley, Townsend and Maunder on the books. Mainly because it has limited gametime for the latter two, though luckily, in that respect, Chudley has been injured for a decent chunk of the season leaving Townsend as no 2, but also because I’m not sure White is that much of a step up.
Ewers has also had numerous injury problems and with Billy there probably isn’t the sort of 6 England need. If we did need/want a ball carrying 6 I’m sure he’d be in the squad. As for Armand, I think he’s squeezed lots out of a fairly limited player.
Regardless, as Raggs says, he needs a stint elsewhere to prove he can do it in a different environment. I’d be tempted to revive the Saxons summer tours for this reason alone if he refuses to leave Exeter.
It may all be moot, he’s on record as saying he has his dream job and isn’t convinced Eng is a step up.

[Mellsblue]

More importantly, I always thought Liberty X a better pop group. Though, that is only because of Jessica Taylor.

[Peat]

Slade’s lack of impact at test level is also as much about making silly mistakes and not looking mentally tough enough rather than Baxter not improving him to the required level.

Aren't mental toughness and consistent decision making things a coach can help with though?


I think this question is looking at the wrong things anyway. An international coach relies more on correct selection, tactics and motivation than player development. Not that the latter isn't needed, but he simply doesn't have enough contact to rely on that as the main source of success.

[Mellsblue]

Slade’s lack of impact at test level is also as much about making silly mistakes and not looking mentally tough enough rather than Baxter not improving him to the required level.

Aren't mental toughness and consistent decision making things a coach can help with though?


I think this question is looking at the wrong things anyway. An international coach relies more on correct selection, tactics and motivation than player development. Not that the latter isn't needed, but he simply doesn't have enough contact to rely on that as the main source of success.

He doesn’t seem to lack it for Exeter particularly. Even if he was a bit error prone on Saturday. Not sure how Baxter can help whilst he’s at England.

There isn’t much an Eng coach can do to really improve a player but test rugby is about that last 1/2/3% and a good international head coach would have enough time to do that. Especially under this EPS, where the players are in England camps for over three months a year.

[Oakboy]

Baxter has been a phenomenal success story as part of a club new to the top level. In the main, his players have been good enough for the team to beat other clubs full of proven, long-term internationals. That suggests to me that he has found a way to compete with limited resources playing in a particular style. His players are extremely efficient playing that way. It is someone else's job to get those players to be as good playing in a different way. Failings in Exeter players for England might just be the fault of the England coaches!

[Mellsblue]

Limited resources! They’re probably the richest club in the league, with a brilliant academy. I say this as a big fan.

[Puja]

I don’t get why he brought in Nic White when he had Chudley, Townsend and Maunder on the books. Mainly because it has limited gametime for the latter two, though luckily, in that respect, Chudley has been injured for a decent chunk of the season leaving Townsend as no 2, but also because I’m not sure White is that much of a step up.

I think the White deal was organised before Townsend and Maunder got all that gametime last season and proved themselves more than ready for adult rugby. I'm not a fan of it, but at the time it was being sorted, Exeter only really had one first team scrum half.

I'lll admit, I've gone off Baxter a bit this year. Watching them play the final against Saracens in exactly the same way that they lost against Saracens in 2016, and get exactly the same results, did not fill me with confidence that he can adapt to changing situations. It happened in the ERC as well - they got dismissed by the Celts, changed nothing for the return matches and surprisingly got exactly the same result.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

I don’t get why he brought in Nic White when he had Chudley, Townsend and Maunder on the books. Mainly because it has limited gametime for the latter two, though luckily, in that respect, Chudley has been injured for a decent chunk of the season leaving Townsend as no 2, but also because I’m not sure White is that much of a step up.

I think the White deal was organised before Townsend and Maunder got all that gametime last season and proved themselves more than ready for adult rugby. I'm not a fan of it, but at the time it was being sorted, Exeter only really had one first team scrum half.

I'lll admit, I've gone off Baxter a bit this year. Watching them play the final against Saracens in exactly the same way that they lost against Saracens in 2016, and get exactly the same results, did not fill me with confidence that he can adapt to changing situations. It happened in the ERC as well - they got dismissed by the Celts, changed nothing for the return matches and surprisingly got exactly the same result.

Puja

If that’s the case with White then fair enough.

I thought they were hard done by in Europe this year. Firstly the group was a killer, secondly they probably gave Leinster their biggest scare outside of the final and finally they were unlucky in Glasgow. From what I remember, they dominated the game but Glasgow caught them on the break a few times on one of those days when everything they tried went to hand.

[Raggs]

Think Digby put it best when he said their style will work on most opponents, but not those at the top. If a defence can basically hold them, and either outlast, or turn them over within 20 phases, they don't offer very much these days. It was only a few seasons ago they were very exciting at times, but with the more serious fixtures now (playoffs, top tier europe etc) they seem to have become more conservative.

[Mellsblue]

Think Digby put it best.

Now, this is heresy.

[twitchy]

On to the next flavour of the month it is then. Who is up next?

[Peat]

On to the next flavour of the month it is then. Who is up next?

Nobody, which is the problem. I think a lot of people haven't been completely sold on Baxter for a while, but he's been the only remotely credible English candidate for the role for a loooong time. That is assuming you believe the RFU wouldn't touch Dean Richards with a bargepole.

[Puja]

On to the next flavour of the month it is then. Who is up next?

Nobody, which is the problem. I think a lot of people haven't been completely sold on Baxter for a while, but he's been the only remotely credible English candidate for the role for a loooong time. That is assuming you believe the RFU wouldn't touch Dean Richards with a bargepole.

Dean Richards has specifically said that he wouldn't touch the England job with a bargepole, describing it as "all the things that I'm not good at and hate, with very little of the things that I am good at and enjoy."

There's only 4 Englishmen in charge of Premiership clubs next season: Baxter, Richards, Diamond, and Gustard. One's limited, one doesn't want it, one is a phenomenal tool, and the last hasn't even started yet. Not exactly spoiled for choice.

Puja

[twitchy]

Get lancaster back with sam burgess as defence coach.

[Mellsblue]

Get lancaster back with sam burgess as defence coach.

Finally, someone talking common sense.

[Peat]

On to the next flavour of the month it is then. Who is up next?

Nobody, which is the problem. I think a lot of people haven't been completely sold on Baxter for a while, but he's been the only remotely credible English candidate for the role for a loooong time. That is assuming you believe the RFU wouldn't touch Dean Richards with a bargepole.

Dean Richards has specifically said that he wouldn't touch the England job with a bargepole, describing it as "all the things that I'm not good at and hate, with very little of the things that I am good at and enjoy."

There's only 4 Englishmen in charge of Premiership clubs next season: Baxter, Richards, Diamond, and Gustard. One's limited, one doesn't want it, one is a phenomenal tool, and the last hasn't even started yet. Not exactly spoiled for choice.

Puja

Do we even have any young assistant coaches we can point to as being up and comers who'll be candidates in 10 years time, all going well?

Hmm. What would people say to the idea of Shaun Edwards as England coach?

[Raggs]

Lee Blackett at Wasps as an up and comer. Personally I reckon he may have been signed up as a long term successor to Dai.

[Stom]

The mighty Joe Worsley!

[Mellsblue]

Rory Teague and Dan McFarland are worth keeping an eye on.

[Puja]

Sam Vesty's done good things with Worcester and it'll be interesting to see how he gets on with Saints. Alex Sanderson's an obvious one with Mark McCall saying he should be in charge of Sarries after he leaves. Dave Walder's responsible for Newcastle's attack which has been going well.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Sam Vesty's done good things with Worcester and it'll be interesting to see how he gets on with Saints. Alex Sanderson's an obvious one with Mark McCall saying he should be in charge of Sarries after he leaves. Dave Walder's responsible for Newcastle's attack which has been going well.

Puja

Walder is now head coach but, yeah, he’s a top prospect.

[fivepointer]

I'm a big admirer of Baxter. Think he's done an outstanding job at Exeter, making small changes and constantly moving the team forward. I think his record of developing players stands against anyone else quite frankly. He can manage players and get them playing effectively. Plus, he is refreshingly honest and straightforward.
Does that make him the next England coach? Probably not as one club men are really not the ideal sort to take on the national job. He has to move away from Exeter to broaden his horizons, and prove that he can work in a different environment and under a different owner.
I'm not sure he sees himself as being anywhere else right now, so the England question may not be in his consideration.