Have we peaked too early?

[Puja]

Not England, the board. Tuesday of a game week and the only post has been in the word association thread. There's 30 pages of posts in the tour thread from last week, but not even a whisper of a "Here's my XXIII" or "When's the team announced" threads.

Have we really got all of our arguing and whinging and team predictions out of the way already?

Puja

[Mellsblue]

There’s plenty to talk about. For example, I’m not sure I know how Dors feels about Jones’s coaching regime.

[Raggs]

Launchbury and Simmonds both injury concerns...

Normally Tuesday sees the rumoured lineups, which often can get things going.

[Danno]

It'll kick off on Thursday when the team is out (I think?).

[Stom]

It's summer. It's time to be lazy and the posting follows that...

[Puja]

Launchbury and Simmonds both injury concerns...

Normally Tuesday sees the rumoured lineups, which often can get things going.

We could have worse injury crises. I'd want Launch, but Isiekwe's no slouch, and as long as TCurry and BillyV stay fit, the back row will be all right (as long as selection is sane).

Puja

[Raggs]

Launch would be missed I reckon, but Simmonds I'm less worried about.

[Mellsblue]

No Launch is a worry. Mainly, as he’s possibly our best player, but also because that means Jonny Hill on the bench.

[Puja]

No Launch is a worry. Mainly, as he’s possibly our best player, but also because that means Jonny Hill on the bench.

Good point. I'm so used to having a surfeit of locks, I'd forgotten that Hill was the next cab off the rank.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Jones has done well in his plan to fill the whole team with unlikable arseholes, to irk opposition teams and fans, but I’m finding myself not really liking the England team now either.

It’s a very promising group we have here, potentially, but I’m just too wary we’ll actually have developed any new plans to take them to the next level.

Personally, I’d like basically every post on here to take the form of a XV/23 but others don’t seem that in to it anymore.

[Puja]

Personally, I’d like basically every post on here to take the form of a XV/23 but others don’t seem that in to it anymore.

I think the sad thing is that we mostly agree (or at least have run our mad obsessions into the ground).

Puja

[fivepointer]

Calm before the storm.

I really dont know whats going to happen with a) selection and b) our actual performance come Saturday. Its going to be mighty interesting, but at the same time, i'm a bit anxious about how this series is going to go. I'm not overly confident.

Team selection on thursday will give us something to applaud or condemn dependent on your viewpoint.

Losing Launchbury would be a significant blow.

[Oakboy]

There’s plenty to talk about. For example, I’m not sure I know how Dors feels about Jones’s coaching regime.

Cheeky sod!

[Oakboy]

Calm before the storm.

I really dont know whats going to happen with a) selection and b) our actual performance come Saturday. Its going to be mighty interesting, but at the same time, i'm a bit anxious about how this series is going to go. I'm not overly confident.

Team selection on thursday will give us something to applaud or condemn dependent on your viewpoint.

Losing Launchbury would be a significant blow.

Yes, I agree with all that.

Also, how good will the SA XV be? The other thread about losing the series 0-3 has dealt with a lot of it but I can't help feeling that we are all lining up with our opinions already polarised. Can anyone realistically interpret what any series result means?

I will be watching Saturday's game with a Scotsman who lives half his life in SA. His wife is from Cape Town and a big SA rugby fan. Maybe, I can get a good idea of standards from them. When I was there in 2016, the fans that I met were in real despair about SA international prospects. Does that mean that defeat by them is a really disastrous effort?


Remind me, how many genuine 1st XV players are we missing? Hartley can't be one now, presumably. Cole might be. Lawes probably is not. So, is it just Watson? If he were available, the back three would be him, May and Daly, so Nowell is only a bench option.


If I was convinced by Jones and his coaching crew, I'd really hope for a 3-0 win. All the 'wonderful opportunities to test a few outsiders' is just bollix. Pick a team to win the 1st Test and admit you are up to it or not, Jones.

[Puja]

Yes, I agree with all that.

Also, how good will the SA XV be? The other thread about losing the series 0-3 has dealt with a lot of it but I can't help feeling that we are all lining up with our opinions already polarised. Can anyone realistically interpret what any series result means?

I will be watching Saturday's game with a Scotsman who lives half his life in SA. His wife is from Cape Town and a big SA rugby fan. Maybe, I can get a good idea of standards from them. When I was there in 2016, the fans that I met were in real despair about SA international prospects. Does that mean that defeat by them is a really disastrous effort?


Remind me, how many genuine 1st XV players are we missing? Hartley can't be one now, presumably. Cole might be. Lawes probably is not. So, is it just Watson? If he were available, the back three would be him, May and Daly, so Nowell is only a bench option.


If I was convinced by Jones and his coaching crew, I'd really hope for a 3-0 win. All the 'wonderful opportunities to test a few outsiders' is just bollix. Pick a team to win the 1st Test and admit you are up to it or not, Jones.

Genuine first XV players would be Joseph and Watson, but Cole, Lawes, Care, Nowell would be likely to be in the XXIII, with Hartley, Kruis, Underhill, and Willis putting pressure on in training. So not a huge disaster, but also not untouched by injury.

From reading of the foreign press, South Africans aren't feeling massively confident, laying more hope in home advantage and altitude than necessarily having a good team. Also today it was confirmed that Bismarck du Plessis and Steyn won't be considered for the first test having been playing last week in France, so they're going to be a bit weaker as well.

I think we need to win the first game. Anything else will be a massive failure.

Puja

[Timbo]

Te’o and a fully fit Tuilagi would be heavily involved too.

[Oakboy]

Te’o and a fully fit Tuilagi would be heavily involved too.

I doubt that is a realistic prospect for the future, unfortunately. Maybe, just 'fit', he would be a great bench option.

[Peej]

Bokke fans are truly world class when it comes to pessimism.

Last week's dire showing against Wales aside, it will be a pretty different SA team in both personnel and mentality. They'll be wanting to get off to a good start under the new coach so I think they'll just go back to basics - big, thundering runners and working the set piece. If England are tired and underpowered (not that it's happened before!) then they could be in for a torrid time.

As a spectacle I imagine the game will be a bit naff*

*I'm fully aware that the law of Sod will now ensure it's the best game of the decade, but having never contributed to a Premiership predictions thread I figured I'd stick my neck out here

[Oakboy]

Bokke fans are truly world class when it comes to pessimism.

Last week's dire showing against Wales aside, it will be a pretty different SA team in both personnel and mentality. They'll be wanting to get off to a good start under the new coach so I think they'll just go back to basics - big, thundering runners and working the set piece. If England are tired and underpowered (not that it's happened before!) then they could be in for a torrid time.

As a spectacle I imagine the game will be a bit naff*

*I'm fully aware that the law of Sod will now ensure it's the best game of the decade, but having never contributed to a Premiership predictions thread I figured I'd stick my neck out here

Er, stick your neck out???? What's Saturday's result going to be, then?

[Oakboy]

Genuine first XV players would be Joseph and Watson, but Cole, Lawes, Care, Nowell would be likely to be in the XXIII, with Hartley, Kruis, Underhill, and Willis putting pressure on in training. So not a huge disaster, but also not untouched by injury.Puja

More or less, the normal availability situation, then. So, we have no excuses. That's what I was inferring.

[Stom]

Te’o and a fully fit Tuilagi would be heavily involved too.

I doubt that is a realistic prospect for the future, unfortunately. Maybe, just 'fit', he would be a great bench option.

Why not. A good summer off and a full pre-season and he could be right back to his best.

[Stom]

Personally, I’d like basically every post on here to take the form of a XV/23 but others don’t seem that in to it anymore.

I think the sad thing is that we mostly agree (or at least have run our mad obsessions into the ground).

Puja

Does this not say that Jones has done a good job? All in all, that is.

Or perhaps that the gap between internationals and the AP is wider than ever.

[Oakboy]

Te’o and a fully fit Tuilagi would be heavily involved too.

I doubt that is a realistic prospect for the future, unfortunately. Maybe, just 'fit', he would be a great bench option.

Why not. A good summer off and a full pre-season and he could be right back to his best.

I hope you are right but I wouldn't put a pound of Puja's money on it, never mind my own.

[Oakboy]

Personally, I’d like basically every post on here to take the form of a XV/23 but others don’t seem that in to it anymore.

I think the sad thing is that we mostly agree (or at least have run our mad obsessions into the ground).

Puja

Does this not say that Jones has done a good job? All in all, that is.

Or perhaps that the gap between internationals and the AP is wider than ever.

Now, those are two worthy debates.

Jones, IMO, is simply a results merchant. His career track record is fairly short of long-term, constructive development. Basically, in employer-terms, it is win or frick off. Maybe, just maybe, a few players will prove to have been significantly improved by his regime.


The gap issue, I'm not sure about. I still believe that a combined XV from Saracens and Exeter could beat all but a few international teams. Swap out the foreigners for the likes of Daly, Cipriani and Launchbury and you have a team that should be up with the top group. I'm convinced that it is largely about 'producing it on the day'. After the 6N I have major reservations, not about the players, but Jones's ability to do that. In 5 matches he produced not a single 'best possible' performance.

[Stom]

I think the sad thing is that we mostly agree (or at least have run our mad obsessions into the ground).

Puja

Does this not say that Jones has done a good job? All in all, that is.

Or perhaps that the gap between internationals and the AP is wider than ever.

Now, those are two worthy debates.

Jones, IMO, is simply a results merchant. His career track record is fairly short of long-term, constructive development. Basically, in employer-terms, it is win or frick off. Maybe, just maybe, a few players will prove to have been significantly improved by his regime.


The gap issue, I'm not sure about. I still believe that a combined XV from Saracens and Exeter could beat all but a few international teams. Swap out the foreigners for the likes of Daly, Cipriani and Launchbury and you have a team that should be up with the top group. I'm convinced that it is largely about 'producing it on the day'. After the 6N I have major reservations, not about the players, but Jones's ability to do that. In 5 matches he produced not a single 'best possible' performance.

I'm going to have to fundamentally disagree there.

A combined Sarries and Exeter team would beat most club sides hands down, sure. But I'm not convinced it would step up to international level.

They are two well oiled machines, not built on individuals. And they play two very different systems. Do you pick the majority from 1 of them and use their system? A system that failed in Europe?