Ruck marks from first test

[16th man]

We had a solid scrum with Sinckler, up until the boks made their changes, and it was no more solid with Williams.

Kitshoff is a bit of a beast in the scrum. He did pretty much the same thing off the bench against the Welsh the weekend before.

[ratsapprentice]

Kitshoff is a bit of a beast in the scrum. He did pretty much the same thing off the bench against the Welsh the weekend before.

Kitshoff is a good scrummager, but for my money it was Du Toit that was doing the damage.
He was getting through our LH onto George.

[Beasties]

Raggs, I've finally got round to looking at the scrums but I see I've been beaten to it by the above two posters. I'd done a brief assessment of each but it's now a bit pointless.

It can be summarised as what I could've told you before the game, namely that Mtawarira isn't a great scrummager (yes I saw THAT Lions game, which was reffed in hilarious fashion). It was clear from the match that Kitshoff is a proper LH scrummager. To be fair to Sinckler the first scrum after Kitshoff came on was solid on the SA put in, but in the very next scrum Sinckler got uttely destroyed and Mako got handed his arse. Fair play, they were both knackered in comparison to the two SA newcomers. Williams then came on, after which there were four scrums. SA got the better of Eng in one of them but the other three were either stable or SA shaded it marginally.

It will be interesting to see if SA change their front row selection or bring Kitshoff on earlier. I would if I were them. Mtawarira has loads of experience but he isn't all that. We could be in trouble if they target Sinckler.

[Raggs]

So we're saying that a shattered Sinckler held his own and got beaten badly once, and a fresh Williams got beaten once, shaded once or twice more, and held his own once. I'd definitely be watching to get Sinckler off at around the same time they get their prop replacements on though.

[Beasties]

Think you're slightly missing the point that Williams had the tougher job.

[Digby]

If Sinckler needs another 10 or maybe even 15 games to learn more about starting a test match means, about how to understand and pace himself at the higher level, then the talent is there I'm more than happy enough to see him be trusted and given time

[Mellsblue]

If Sinckler needs another 10 or maybe even 15 games to learn more about starting a test match means, about how to understand and pace himself at the higher level, then the talent is there I'm more than happy enough to see him be trusted and given time

This sounds very much like the preamble to the argument for giving Kvesic a run in the 7 shirt.

[Raggs]

Think you're slightly missing the point that Williams had the tougher job.

I understand that Williams spent more scrums against a better opponent, but Williams did that when he knew he had 20 minutes to play and he still went backwards. Sinckler did that after 50+ minutes when altitude had probably wrecked him.

I'd not consider Williams getting a start a mistake or anything, and he may well be better, but I don't think the scrums is a fair way to judge, and whilst Williams was busy in his cameo, it's far easier to be busy when you know you only have 20 to play, and we've seen the same sort of thing when Sinckler has come off the bench.

[Beasties]

Not arguing with your point at all Raggs, more that you seemed to be dismissing the notion of Williams being the stronger scrummager. To me, they seem ideally suited to being used the other way round. Sinckler's energy off the bench is exactly what you'd want in the second half. He didn't seem to have much energy from the word go last week.

[Raggs]

Not arguing with your point at all Raggs, more that you seemed to be dismissing the notion of Williams being the stronger scrummager. To me, they seem ideally suited to being used the other way round. Sinckler's energy off the bench is exactly what you'd want in the second half. He didn't seem to have much energy from the word go last week.

I don't know if he is, I just don't think the SA game is the opportunity of a fair comparison given their relative freshness. Williams offered plenty around the park as impact though. If Sinckler can offer impact for 50 minutes, much like Mako, why not use it?

[Digby]

If Sinckler needs another 10 or maybe even 15 games to learn more about starting a test match means, about how to understand and pace himself at the higher level, then the talent is there I'm more than happy enough to see him be trusted and given time

This sounds very much like the preamble to the argument for giving Kvesic a run in the 7 shirt.

Identify talented player who brings a skillset the side needs for balance and pick them?

(I'm not as cross about Kvesic if we're to start picking Curry, and I wouldn't have been so cross about Kvesic were it not for watching the limited dross or simply dross being served up whilst Armitage and then Kvesic weren't picked)