Second Test

[Raggs]

yes, but still a leap of faith to have the self-belief collectively, even if you buy into 6N defeats= heavy legs theory, which i am sceptical about.

The difference in dynamism between the players with their clubs and with England was great enough for me to believe it. Especially with DORs commenting about the good conditioning of the players. Itoje is suddenly explosive and actually carrying in traffic well. Dan Cole was actually making regular effective carries for Tigers! Mako looked almost under 40!

[Mellsblue]

If I stop being facetious, I think, yes, we are making progress but it’s progress that should’ve been in the AI’s. That progress is a proper backrow, George at hooker, Daly or Watson at fullback and a back/attack coach.

Backrow progress, maybe. I didn't think George was any improvement over Hartley. I still think Daly at FB is cranky. But, hey-ho, I don't blame you for straw-clutching.

How is backrow progress only a maybe? We have a 7 at 7 and a 6 at 6?!?!? George is better than Hartley, no question. He may not be pulling up trees but he’s definitely an improvement. Hopefully he’ll improve if he gets an extend run. Daly is cranky but we won’t win a World Cup with Brown at fullback and it’s worth the experiment. I’d have Watson in the 15 shirt but he’s not available.

[Stom]

The pack looks all right, the bench is all over the place like a madman's shit. Keeping Brown on the wing is just being a stubborn dickhead.

Nah mate, you're off your rioja.

[Banquo]

yes, but still a leap of faith to have the self-belief collectively, even if you buy into 6N defeats= heavy legs theory, which i am sceptical about.

The difference in dynamism between the players with their clubs and with England was great enough for me to believe it. Especially with DORs commenting about the good conditioning of the players. Itoje is suddenly explosive and actually carrying in traffic well. Dan Cole was actually making regular effective carries for Tigers! Mako looked almost under 40!

....leaps of faith everywhere I look....is just beasting players during international weeks, then doing what they want with the clubs, which is most of the time, really going to pay off some 18 months out. I guess I am going to have to defer to Eddie's physiologists!

[Banquo]

If I stop being facetious, I think, yes, we are making progress but it’s progress that should’ve been in the AI’s. That progress is a proper backrow, George at hooker, Daly or Watson at fullback and a back/attack coach.

Backrow progress, maybe. I didn't think George was any improvement over Hartley. I still think Daly at FB is cranky. But, hey-ho, I don't blame you for straw-clutching.

How is backrow progress only a maybe? We have a 7 at 7 and a 6 at 6?!?!? George is better than Hartley, no question. He may not be pulling up trees but he’s definitely an improvement. Hopefully he’ll improve if he gets an extend run. Daly is cranky but we won’t win a World Cup with Brown at fullback and it’s worth the experiment. I’d have Watson in the 15 shirt but he’s not available.

you can't call it progress until it improves performance in fairness.

On full back, I'd have experimented with Woodward....imo we know Daly is capable of world classery at 11, so that's job done

[Which Tyler]

yes, but still a leap of faith to have the self-belief collectively, even if you buy into 6N defeats= heavy legs theory, which i am sceptical about.

The difference in dynamism between the players with their clubs and with England was great enough for me to believe it. Especially with DORs commenting about the good conditioning of the players. Itoje is suddenly explosive and actually carrying in traffic well. Dan Cole was actually making regular effective carries for Tigers! Mako looked almost under 40!

Agreed all the evidence available suggests that what Eddie said actually is what Eddie did.
We known the did brutal training camps during rest weeks
We know he tried very hard not to bring anyone in from outside his original squad
We know the clubs commented on how well fit the players were
We know we suffered several training ground type injuries
We know the players looked knackered out on the paddock
We know all the surviving players looked better a month or so after the England camo broke

If literally all of the evidence points to "overtraining", and we've been told that we're deliberately overtraining, then I for one find it hard to be sceptical that were overtraining purely on the basis that "Eddie said it so it must be a lie" (and certainly not because "I wouldn't do it, so no way Eddie would")

[Which Tyler]

....leaps of faith everywhere I look....is just beasting players during international weeks, then doing what they want with the clubs, which is most of the time, really going to pay off some 18 months out. I guess I am going to have to defer to Eddie's physiologists!

Eddie had them for 9 weeks solid; so... Yes, absolutely.
But the beasting needs to be followed by rest in order to benefit, and I'd want that rest to come reasonably soon after each period of beasting for maximum effectiveness, though that's out of everyone's hands.

[Raggs]

yes, but still a leap of faith to have the self-belief collectively, even if you buy into 6N defeats= heavy legs theory, which i am sceptical about.

The difference in dynamism between the players with their clubs and with England was great enough for me to believe it. Especially with DORs commenting about the good conditioning of the players. Itoje is suddenly explosive and actually carrying in traffic well. Dan Cole was actually making regular effective carries for Tigers! Mako looked almost under 40!

....leaps of faith everywhere I look....is just beasting players during international weeks, then doing what they want with the clubs, which is most of the time, really going to pay off some 18 months out. I guess I am going to have to defer to Eddie's physiologists!

That's the leap for me, trusting in what a head of sports science, who was involved in Japans world cup, and has a generally very impressive CV, says.

[Mellsblue]

Backrow progress, maybe. I didn't think George was any improvement over Hartley. I still think Daly at FB is cranky. But, hey-ho, I don't blame you for straw-clutching.

How is backrow progress only a maybe? We have a 7 at 7 and a 6 at 6?!?!? George is better than Hartley, no question. He may not be pulling up trees but he’s definitely an improvement. Hopefully he’ll improve if he gets an extend run. Daly is cranky but we won’t win a World Cup with Brown at fullback and it’s worth the experiment. I’d have Watson in the 15 shirt but he’s not available.

you can't call it progress until it improves performance in fairness.

On full back, I'd have experimented with Woodward....imo we know Daly is capable of world classery at 11, so that's job done

Improving selection isn’t progress. C’mon!!

[Banquo]

The difference in dynamism between the players with their clubs and with England was great enough for me to believe it. Especially with DORs commenting about the good conditioning of the players. Itoje is suddenly explosive and actually carrying in traffic well. Dan Cole was actually making regular effective carries for Tigers! Mako looked almost under 40!

....leaps of faith everywhere I look....is just beasting players during international weeks, then doing what they want with the clubs, which is most of the time, really going to pay off some 18 months out. I guess I am going to have to defer to Eddie's physiologists!

That's the leap for me, trusting in what a head of sports science, who was involved in Japans world cup, and has a generally very impressive CV, says.

ok, trust delivered. But what worked for Japanese players is very different, but I'll put scepticism on hold caller- as I said, defer to his physiologists.

TRUST IN EDDIE

(although his selections are shyte)

[Banquo]

....leaps of faith everywhere I look....is just beasting players during international weeks, then doing what they want with the clubs, which is most of the time, really going to pay off some 18 months out. I guess I am going to have to defer to Eddie's physiologists!

Eddie had them for 9 weeks solid; so... Yes, absolutely.
But the beasting needs to be followed by rest in order to benefit, and I'd want that rest to come reasonably soon after each period of beasting for maximum effectiveness, though that's out of everyone's hands.

...but 18 months out, surely it has to be tightly controlled that whole period, so deals with clubs have to be in place?

[Raggs]

Japan was different, but they did seem to get them well rested on order to peak after their beasting.

[Banquo]

yes, but still a leap of faith to have the self-belief collectively, even if you buy into 6N defeats= heavy legs theory, which i am sceptical about.

The difference in dynamism between the players with their clubs and with England was great enough for me to believe it. Especially with DORs commenting about the good conditioning of the players. Itoje is suddenly explosive and actually carrying in traffic well. Dan Cole was actually making regular effective carries for Tigers! Mako looked almost under 40!

Agreed all the evidence available suggests that what Eddie said actually is what Eddie did.
We known the did brutal training camps during rest weeks
We know he tried very hard not to bring anyone in from outside his original squad
We know the clubs commented on how well fit the players were
We know we suffered several training ground type injuries
We know the players looked knackered out on the paddock
We know all the surviving players looked better a month or so after the England camo broke

If literally all of the evidence points to "overtraining", and we've been told that we're deliberately overtraining, then I for one find it hard to be sceptical that were overtraining purely on the basis that "Eddie said it so it must be a lie" (and certainly not because "I wouldn't do it, so no way Eddie would")

Neither of those strawmen apply to me; I'm questioning that the primary reason we were losing games was because of conditioning, as I have always said- there is more to sort.

I am also questioning his methodology, not that they were beasted. But I will defer to Raggs' endorsement of Eddie's number 2 on this; we won't know until its run its course, and even then we can't know what our rivals will turn up like, and whether they have found another edge to this.

[Banquo]

Japan was different, but they did seem to get them well rested on order to peak after their beasting.

and hopefully we can do that going into the World Cup, but at present that control is not there.

[Stom]

The difference in dynamism between the players with their clubs and with England was great enough for me to believe it. Especially with DORs commenting about the good conditioning of the players. Itoje is suddenly explosive and actually carrying in traffic well. Dan Cole was actually making regular effective carries for Tigers! Mako looked almost under 40!

Agreed all the evidence available suggests that what Eddie said actually is what Eddie did.
We known the did brutal training camps during rest weeks
We know he tried very hard not to bring anyone in from outside his original squad
We know the clubs commented on how well fit the players were
We know we suffered several training ground type injuries
We know the players looked knackered out on the paddock
We know all the surviving players looked better a month or so after the England camo broke

If literally all of the evidence points to "overtraining", and we've been told that we're deliberately overtraining, then I for one find it hard to be sceptical that were overtraining purely on the basis that "Eddie said it so it must be a lie" (and certainly not because "I wouldn't do it, so no way Eddie would")

Neither of those strawmen apply to me; I'm questioning that the primary reason we were losing games was because of conditioning, as I have always said- there is more to sort.

We're in agreement that are major weaknesses have been discipline, defense/defensive discipline and ruck work. 3 things likely to suffer when tired.

[Banquo]

Agreed all the evidence available suggests that what Eddie said actually is what Eddie did.
We known the did brutal training camps during rest weeks
We know he tried very hard not to bring anyone in from outside his original squad
We know the clubs commented on how well fit the players were
We know we suffered several training ground type injuries
We know the players looked knackered out on the paddock
We know all the surviving players looked better a month or so after the England camo broke

If literally all of the evidence points to "overtraining", and we've been told that we're deliberately overtraining, then I for one find it hard to be sceptical that were overtraining purely on the basis that "Eddie said it so it must be a lie" (and certainly not because "I wouldn't do it, so no way Eddie would")

Neither of those strawmen apply to me; I'm questioning that the primary reason we were losing games was because of conditioning, as I have always said- there is more to sort.

We're in agreement that are major weaknesses have been discipline, defense/defensive discipline and ruck work. 3 things likely to suffer when tired.

Maybe, but all of those were a bit shyte under Lanky too. Technique at the ruck and decision making at the ruck are systemic issues- as we saw with out club sides, and Eddie himself said. But I'm glad to have a straw to clutch at!

You have also failed to mention back row balance, scrum half play, carriers up front, midfield muddle and Dylan Hartley.

[Stom]

Neither of those strawmen apply to me; I'm questioning that the primary reason we were losing games was because of conditioning, as I have always said- there is more to sort.

We're in agreement that are major weaknesses have been discipline, defense/defensive discipline and ruck work. 3 things likely to suffer when tired.

Maybe, but all of those were a bit shyte under Lanky too. Technique at the ruck and decision making at the ruck are systemic issues- as we saw with out club sides, and Eddie himself said. But I'm glad to have a straw to clutch at!

Yeah. And that's why I have a new #1 worry. Ben Youngs. If we're going to get decent ball, we need him to get to the ruck quickly, make an instant decision and then act. Which he has consistently failed to do.

[Oakboy]

The pack looks all right, the bench is all over the place like a madman's shit. Keeping Brown on the wing is just being a stubborn dickhead.

Not exactly the way I'd have phrased it but - yes.

[Banquo]

We're in agreement that are major weaknesses have been discipline, defense/defensive discipline and ruck work. 3 things likely to suffer when tired.

Maybe, but all of those were a bit shyte under Lanky too. Technique at the ruck and decision making at the ruck are systemic issues- as we saw with out club sides, and Eddie himself said. But I'm glad to have a straw to clutch at!

Yeah. And that's why I have a new #1 worry. Ben Youngs. If we're going to get decent ball, we need him to get to the ruck quickly, make an instant decision and then act. Which he has consistently failed to do.

That's my point, there are a number of worries still there, even if you factor the heavy legged stuff in; they were apparent in many games before the defeats. Some we may be able to compensate for by chucking more bodies in as they can get there and have more impact, but you'll still be struggling for technique and decision making; so I hope Eddie has all this in hand, along with the conditioning masterplan (and others will also have their's)

[Beasties]

We're in agreement that are major weaknesses have been discipline, defense/defensive discipline and ruck work. 3 things likely to suffer when tired.

Maybe, but all of those were a bit shyte under Lanky too. Technique at the ruck and decision making at the ruck are systemic issues- as we saw with out club sides, and Eddie himself said. But I'm glad to have a straw to clutch at!

Yeah. And that's why I have a new #1 worry. Ben Youngs. If we're going to get decent ball, we need him to get to the ruck quickly, make an instant decision and then act. Which he has consistently failed to do.

Blimey, it's a while since anyone had a go at Ben Youngs. Thought we'd all just knida accepted Eddie's picking him and that's that. A bit like Faz. Although, Faz has actually improved.....

[Oakboy]

I don't question the claim that George, at his best, is a better individual player than Hartley, at his best. I do question whether George's performance, as an individual, last Saturday was better than Hartley's last performance, as an individual. Further, I question whether the forwards around George perform, as a unit, as well as they have done regularly around Hartley.

I'm just trying to compare objectively. George may be the best available currently but there's a hell of a lot of room for improvement.

[16th man]

I don't question the claim that George, at his best, is a better individual player than Hartley, at his best. I do question whether George's performance, as an individual, last Saturday was better than Hartley's last performance, as an individual. Further, I question whether the forwards around George perform, as a unit, as well as they have done regularly around Hartley.

I'm just trying to compare objectively. George may be the best available currently but there's a hell of a lot of room for improvement.

You're never going to get that impact on the pack as a unit from George, or any other hooker for that matter, if every time they start a test and don't have it you criticise them and then go back to Hartley, or swap them out for another newbie, who inevitably doesn't have it. And repeat.

George is our best hooker. He's shown this over the last 3 years, including a lions tour. We now need to pick him and stick with him so he can build the confidence, familiarity with the environment and relationship with the other squad regulars which Hartley has had 90+ caps to acquire.

Otherwise we're back in 90's England cricket team mode, where every one gets 1 or 2 tests to get a 50 or take 5 wickets, or they're jettisoned for the next debutant or safety blanket old pro.

[Puja]

I don't question the claim that George, at his best, is a better individual player than Hartley, at his best. I do question whether George's performance, as an individual, last Saturday was better than Hartley's last performance, as an individual. Further, I question whether the forwards around George perform, as a unit, as well as they have done regularly around Hartley.

I'm just trying to compare objectively. George may be the best available currently but there's a hell of a lot of room for improvement.

To be fair, George gave away about three penalties for failing to evaporate instantly upon making a tackle, which did drag his performance down a notch.

I would also take a moment to remind you that, while Eddie's routine to get Japan to the RWC was undeniably successful, he did experiment with a number 8 on the left wing for a couple of the warn-up games, so things could be a lot worse than Brown.

Puja

[twitchy]

While george wasn't great I dread to think what hartley would have been like against that bok onslaught.

[Stom]

Maybe, but all of those were a bit shyte under Lanky too. Technique at the ruck and decision making at the ruck are systemic issues- as we saw with out club sides, and Eddie himself said. But I'm glad to have a straw to clutch at!

Yeah. And that's why I have a new #1 worry. Ben Youngs. If we're going to get decent ball, we need him to get to the ruck quickly, make an instant decision and then act. Which he has consistently failed to do.

Blimey, it's a while since anyone had a go at Ben Youngs. Thought we'd all just knida accepted Eddie's picking him and that's that. A bit like Faz. Although, Faz has actually improved.....

Well, that's why...Faz has improved. Youngs has gone backwards.