Second Test

[Banquo]

fecking retarded. .

Not exactly PC but spat me coffee anyway.

So much fell into this category yesterday; I thought Ford was mostly pretty good ball in hand, but kept on with pre-conceived (badly conceived) cross kick plan, when all it seemed you had to do was get to the wide channel to score at will. We turned down kickable penalties for no reason I could fathom. Nearly all the penalties. Flapping useless tackles. The list is nearly endless.

IMO this goes way beyond selection, heavy legs etc.....there's a'cultural' problem of feckwittery.

[Scrumhead]

Farrell’s was panic. Not good, but kind of forgivable. Hughes’ was pure unforgivable stupidity (I agree the ‘head down’ moment was realisation). I’ve never been a fan and to be quite honest, I’d be quite happy to drop him from the squad altogether. He’s added very little and we simply can’t accommodate that level of idiocy when we give away enough penalties as it is.

[Raggs]

The wide channels weren't that good to us though. One from a great Vunipola break, which obviously had the bok defence is disarray. The second was crazy handling, with a fair whack of luck, which will lead to a defence taking a moment.

Fatigue will cause poor decision making, but when your captain behaves like Farrell, you cannot expect anything more from your players. Hartley may have a discipline problem, but he seems to have a much better rapport with referees and a much better approach to them.

Disagree that Farrell's was panic, and even if it was, he was so painfully, obviously offside, that he should have been fully aware of it. Not as stupid as Hughes, but not far off. A big difference for me though, is Hughes looked like he knew he'd fecked up before it a whistle was even blown which may suggest there's a chance (only a chance mind) he'll learn from it, Farrell yelled at the ref believing he should have been allowed to get away with it.

[Mellsblue]

Remember thetime Farrell shouted at Robshaw for ‘that’ decision against Wales in the World Cup? If I were Robshaw, I might wander down to breakfast the morning and ask Farrell whether he still thinks this captaincy lark is quite so easy.

[Oakboy]

Itoje and Mako last week. Farrell, Mako and Hughes this week. All committed brainless offences. The common factor has to be frustration. They appear thick but are probably only thick on the back of other mistakes. IMO, it is all an integral part of a lack of cohesion. It is all very well to opine that it's not the coach's fault if a player behaves stupidly. Unfortunately the players are dedicated to the professional goal of winning. If things go wrong and they offend out of frustration it is part of a bigger picture.

Farrell is NOT a good captain playing out of position at 12. Jones needs to find some balls and either hand him the 10 shirt or leave him out.

I thought Jones should have taken Youngs and Ford off at half time and said so then. Cipriani's cameo showed that he is simply our best FH. I don't want him starting at 10 with Farrell at 12 but it may well happen, I suppose. I'd go for broke and play Robson, Cipriani, Slade and Lozowski.

[Banquo]

The wide channels weren't that good to us though. One from a great Vunipola break, which obviously had the bok defence is disarray. The second was crazy handling, with a fair whack of luck, which will lead to a defence taking a moment.

..and thereafter, failed to even try to use them much; and if you recall, we sliced them wide four times last week. Mind, the Daly/Brown interchange wasn't using either players' skills to best effect.

The crazy handling part of that was a dreadful pass from Faz to Ford- the overlap had been created authentically though.

[Stom]

So I'm just watching the match as I was busy yesterday.

I'm at the point of their first try. Can someone tell me something about this ruck:

How the hell is that not flopping over? SA7 just went straight off his feet over the ball.

Then, for the try, Youngs...I mean, if you can't trust Billy there, who are you going to trust? In other words, he just wanted to hide behind the big man. Abysmal.

[Raggs]

Just to point out, the 2nd time we go wide is from a lineout, Brown juggles it, which sucks defenders tighter, he then get's it to Daly I think, and then to May who scores.

As for that ruck, he's trying to clear Curry, he doesn't flop over the ruck obstructing Curry attacking the ball, nothing wrong in my mind.

[Raggs]

Farrell tackles Faf, just after he releases the ball, Faf, having just been hit by a bigger man (and arguably high), goes down. Farrell gets up yelling at the ref that Faf is diving...

[Raggs]

Just a couple of rucks later, Farrell is complaining about a player in at the side, and instead of standing guard as he should be, shoves a bok player, in the meantime Mtawira (sp?) goes straight through the middle...

[Banquo]

Just to point out, the 2nd time we go wide is from a lineout, Brown juggles it, which sucks defenders tighter, he then get's it to Daly I think, and then to May who scores.

As for that ruck, he's trying to clear Curry, he doesn't flop over the ruck obstructing Curry attacking the ball, nothing wrong in my mind.

yes I know. It was a wrap around from Ford, Faz gives him a shyte pass which throws Brown's timing out, thus causing the quite inspired bat on; however that made everyone flat, but they still managed to score easily...which says SA's defence out there was iffy...as it has been all series. Yet we then try cross kicking and repeat.

[Peat]

Then, for the try, Youngs...I mean, if you can't trust Billy there, who are you going to trust? In other words, he just wanted to hide behind the big man. Abysmal.

I'm not sure I trust Vunipola to stop Vermeulen on an outside arc there tbh.

[Raggs]

I know it's getting a bit Digby like, but when Mako gives the stupid penalty, Daly magically keeps it in, and then boots it a mile downfield, perfectly judged to land out of play, why exactly is it called out?

Ball didn't hit the ground, and Daly kept the ball in field with his feet in the field of play, therefore it should be play on (I think as long as Daly is in field, it doesn't matter if the ball has crossed the line does it? Or was that one of the changes?). I mean the AR keeps his flag down until well after Daly has kept it in, runs past the mark he later calls it out, and the bok player catches it 2ft from the touchline.

[Adam_P]

It seems to me like the Saracens players are so used to being on top and dominant that they just don't respond well when things aren't going 100% their way.

[fivepointer]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b694nc

First 10 minutes focuses on the rugby.

Eddie in spiky form post match but Chris is pretty much bang on with his summing up.

[Peat]

I know it's getting a bit Digby like, but when Mako gives the stupid penalty, Daly magically keeps it in, and then boots it a mile downfield, perfectly judged to land out of play, why exactly is it called out?

Ball didn't hit the ground, and Daly kept the ball in field with his feet in the field of play, therefore it should be play on (I think as long as Daly is in field, it doesn't matter if the ball has crossed the line does it? Or was that one of the changes?). I mean the AR keeps his flag down until well after Daly has kept it in, runs past the mark he later calls it out, and the bok player catches it 2ft from the touchline.

Oh is that what happened? I took my eyes off the screen for a minute at that point and when it returned, I thought Daly had kicked it out on the full.

[Mellsblue]

I know it's getting a bit Digby like, but when Mako gives the stupid penalty, Daly magically keeps it in, and then boots it a mile downfield, perfectly judged to land out of play, why exactly is it called out?

Ball didn't hit the ground, and Daly kept the ball in field with his feet in the field of play, therefore it should be play on (I think as long as Daly is in field, it doesn't matter if the ball has crossed the line does it? Or was that one of the changes?). I mean the AR keeps his flag down until well after Daly has kept it in, runs past the mark he later calls it out, and the bok player catches it 2ft from the touchline.

Oh is that what happened? I took my eyes off the screen for a minute at that point and when it returned, I thought Daly had kicked it out on the full.

That confused me, too. I assumed Daly had been adjudged to have been just outside the 22 when he kicked. Which he wasn’t.

[Mikey Brown]

Hughes was fecking retarded. On the floor at the ruck, not even hidden by bodies, reaches out and slaps the ball out of Faf's hands. I do wonder if a split second he realised what he'd done, because he sort of just puts his head down on the floor in a sort of "What the hell did I do that for...". Probably the stupidest of the lot.

Farrell tackled, got up slowly on the other side of the ruck, play had gone on to another ruck further downfield, the ball bounced loose towards him from the ruck, and he grabbed it. He wasn't even back onside from the first ruck that he was the tackler for, let alone the 2nd that had only just finished. Ref called play on at first since he must have assumed Farrell came round, but was pointed out to him he was always offside, Farrell then has a go at the ref for saying Play on. Sometimes offside (especially accidental from knock ons etc) can be harsh, but Farrell has no excuse for not knowing he was miles offside there.

Well... encouraging stuff there, Raggs. Cheers. Sorry to make you relive all that.

[Banquo]

I know it's getting a bit Digby like, but when Mako gives the stupid penalty, Daly magically keeps it in, and then boots it a mile downfield, perfectly judged to land out of play, why exactly is it called out?

Ball didn't hit the ground, and Daly kept the ball in field with his feet in the field of play, therefore it should be play on (I think as long as Daly is in field, it doesn't matter if the ball has crossed the line does it? Or was that one of the changes?). I mean the AR keeps his flag down until well after Daly has kept it in, runs past the mark he later calls it out, and the bok player catches it 2ft from the touchline.

Oh is that what happened? I took my eyes off the screen for a minute at that point and when it returned, I thought Daly had kicked it out on the full.

That confused me, too. I assumed Daly had been adjudged to have been just outside the 22 when he kicked. Which he wasn’t.

Wasn't the SA player who fielded the ball in touch?

[Mikey Brown]

I know it's getting a bit Digby like, but when Mako gives the stupid penalty, Daly magically keeps it in, and then boots it a mile downfield, perfectly judged to land out of play, why exactly is it called out?

Ball didn't hit the ground, and Daly kept the ball in field with his feet in the field of play, therefore it should be play on (I think as long as Daly is in field, it doesn't matter if the ball has crossed the line does it? Or was that one of the changes?). I mean the AR keeps his flag down until well after Daly has kept it in, runs past the mark he later calls it out, and the bok player catches it 2ft from the touchline.

Oh is that what happened? I took my eyes off the screen for a minute at that point and when it returned, I thought Daly had kicked it out on the full.

That confused me, too. I assumed Daly had been adjudged to have been just outside the 22 when he kicked. Which he wasn’t.

I thought Daly absolutely nailed that kick. Then I heard the words 'Glenn Jackson' and didn't bother questioning why the line-out made no sense.

[Raggs]

I know it's getting a bit Digby like, but when Mako gives the stupid penalty, Daly magically keeps it in, and then boots it a mile downfield, perfectly judged to land out of play, why exactly is it called out?

Ball didn't hit the ground, and Daly kept the ball in field with his feet in the field of play, therefore it should be play on (I think as long as Daly is in field, it doesn't matter if the ball has crossed the line does it? Or was that one of the changes?). I mean the AR keeps his flag down until well after Daly has kept it in, runs past the mark he later calls it out, and the bok player catches it 2ft from the touchline.

Oh is that what happened? I took my eyes off the screen for a minute at that point and when it returned, I thought Daly had kicked it out on the full.

That confused me, too. I assumed Daly had been adjudged to have been just outside the 22 when he kicked. Which he wasn’t.

My guess now is that as Daly kicked it at such a narrow angle, even though it was caught at the bok 22, and only 2ft out, he was only about that far infield when he kciked, so the AR basically reckons it went over the line a lot earlier. Bit harsh, but I think technically right decision.

Done the first half of ruck marks now. Not as many comments as usual, too depressing really. So far seems like Itoje is having a busy game, Launch slightly off the pace (unsurprising if he hasn't trained for 2 weeks), BV had one impressive carry, but I'm wondering if most opinions are based on that, rather than much else, not that the others were awful, it's just they weren't anything special at all, and neither was the rest of his game. Farrell can feck off. Yelling at the ref constantly, no wonder he got nothing out of him. Shields seems like he's having quite a busy game, right place right time sort of feel, hard work I guess. Curry is still impressing too, not a great by any means, but for a 20 year old, he's doing exceptionally, and merely as an international, he's doing just fine. Don't recall seeing much of Sinckler.

[Banquo]

Oh is that what happened? I took my eyes off the screen for a minute at that point and when it returned, I thought Daly had kicked it out on the full.

That confused me, too. I assumed Daly had been adjudged to have been just outside the 22 when he kicked. Which he wasn’t.

My guess now is that as Daly kicked it at such a narrow angle, even though it was caught at the bok 22, and only 2ft out, he was only about that far infield when he kciked, so the AR basically reckons it went over the line a lot earlier. Bit harsh, but I think technically right decision.

Done the first half of ruck marks now. Not as many comments as usual, too depressing really. So far seems like Itoje is having a busy game, Launch slightly off the pace (unsurprising if he hasn't trained for 2 weeks), BV had one impressive carry, but I'm wondering if most opinions are based on that, rather than much else, not that the others were awful, it's just they weren't anything special at all, and neither was the rest of his game. Farrell can feck off. Yelling at the ref constantly, no wonder he got nothing out of him. Shields seems like he's having quite a busy game, right place right time sort of feel, hard work I guess. Curry is still impressing too, not a great by any means, but for a 20 year old, he's doing exceptionally, and merely as an international, he's doing just fine. Don't recall seeing much of Sinckler.

well if it was caught in touch, then iirc it's where the ball crossed the plane of the touchline.

[Mikey Brown]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b694nc

First 10 minutes focuses on the rugby.

Eddie in spiky form post match but Chris is pretty much bang on with his summing up.

Haha. Jesus christ, Eddie is such a fucking baby.

[Mellsblue]

Oh is that what happened? I took my eyes off the screen for a minute at that point and when it returned, I thought Daly had kicked it out on the full.

That confused me, too. I assumed Daly had been adjudged to have been just outside the 22 when he kicked. Which he wasn’t.

My guess now is that as Daly kicked it at such a narrow angle, even though it was caught at the bok 22, and only 2ft out, he was only about that far infield when he kciked, so the AR basically reckons it went over the line a lot earlier. Bit harsh, but I think technically right decision.

Done the first half of ruck marks now. Not as many comments as usual, too depressing really. So far seems like Itoje is having a busy game, Launch slightly off the pace (unsurprising if he hasn't trained for 2 weeks), BV had one impressive carry, but I'm wondering if most opinions are based on that, rather than much else, not that the others were awful, it's just they weren't anything special at all, and neither was the rest of his game. Farrell can feck off. Yelling at the ref constantly, no wonder he got nothing out of him. Shields seems like he's having quite a busy game, right place right time sort of feel, hard work I guess. Curry is still impressing too, not a great by any means, but for a 20 year old, he's doing exceptionally, and merely as an international, he's doing just fine. Don't recall seeing much of Sinckler.

Everything that Curry does, especially in a failing team, just shouts that he’s cut out for this level.

[Banquo]

Faz still gets a 7 from Jones. Seriously...shyte decision making, some terrible passes.....forward pass under the posts anyone. All offset by a tap tackle on a centre carrying the ball he couldn't catch. FFS.