Number 8

[Scrumhead]

What is the plan at Number 8?

Billy is too injury prone and that creates two problems. 1) if not Billy, who do we select and 2) how do we develop a game plan that doesn’t rely on him/what he brings.

By now, I think we can now regard Hughes as a failure as a test 8. He’s had a reasonable amount of time and apart from a couple of 7/10 performances, more often than not he has been average, if not outright bad. IMO, he’s not demonstrated he can cut it at test level, certainly not as a viable option to start.

Simmonds is a quality player with some fantastic attributes but in order to play him at 8, we need to restructure the back row/pack to mitigate for his lack of size, which makes it a non-starter (quite literally), As an impact sub at 7 or 8 though, he’s a great option to have.

Clifford has a lot of what we need in terms of offering a good balance of pace, skill set and just about enough size, but he’s even more injury prone than Billy.

Shields is more of a 6 and, if he has a future with England, it’ll either be at 6 or on he bench covering the back row (please not lock).

Mercer is too lightweight and too inexperienced to be a serious option. However, I do think he will develop in to a very good option in he medium term.

Where does that leave us?

Personally I think Guy Thompson would have been worth a look, but he fact that Eddie has shown no interest in him whatsoever leads me to believe that he has no chance of making it in to the mix now.

Ben Morgan is the most obvious answer, given that he can offer the carrying threat we’re lacking without Billy but Eddie clearly doesn’t fancy him (despite him looking arguably as good as he ever has for Gloucester).

I’m out of ideas?

[Oakboy]

He keeps putting Robshaw there for bits of games. Does Wilson never play at 8? I'd add Armand to the list but he's another Jones-reject.

[padprop]

Mercer may be one pre-season away from being our 8, his stats are rediculous but still does look too wirey. Hope bath put 5kg on him and we could be in business

Morgan should always be in and around the squad IMO, if anything he's always been great off the bench.

Clifford looked like the great hope at under 20 World Cup but feel he's had a bit of James Hook-syndrome in his versatility stunting his career. He's an 8 all day.

Beaumont I guess, but he seems to have gone off the boil.

[francoisfou]

Hughes being sent backwards by the wee Faf de Klerk was a joke and will surely put and end to his hopes of being in the mix for the AIs. Let’s hope Morgan impresses in the early season.

[Digby]

I fail to see why Billy is too injury prone, what actual injuries that he's picked up suggest that over any other player? Though he could lose a couple of kilos it would seem, and that would make him less injury prone

[Mellsblue]

He’s had a bad run but he could come back after the latest injury and have a clear run through to the World Cup. None of the injuries are connected, as far as I’m aware. It’s not like Tuilagi who’s injuries always seem to be groin or pectoral related.
The issue is that Billy is so unique amongst EQP that when he’s unavailable it’s a huge hole in our gameplan. Part of me thinks that now the 6 shirt is up for grabs - and we don’t have a standout option, even if I think Wilson really deserves a run - we put a big carrier there and if Billy is injured then he will step up to the main carrier role. If we have a 7 & 8 of Curry and Simmonds, if Billy is out, and we have a cadre of 5.5’s at lock I think we could easily balance a pack to have a ball carrier rather than grafter/more mobile option at 6. That theory doesn’t hold quite so true if Cole and Hartley come back into the team; though, conversely, we would next extra carriers.

[Digby]

The refracture of the arm is a concern on Billy, if that does suggest a weakness, but I don't think it's down to him being injury prone, it's just unlucky

[6.5]

In Hughes’ defence, this season I feel that he has often been asked to play half fit, with his knee heavily bandaged. It is very difficult to carry at 100% when playing on one leg! In Argentina he looked reasonable and I think he could get to that level with a full rest and recovery.

Outside of Hughes, id agree with your post above but also throw Carl Fearns (unrealistic I know) into the mix.

I don’t understand what happened to Ben Morgan - can any Glouc fans inform? He’s certainly good enough (better than Hughes in my view) but we need him playing regularly.

Mercer will be the man in the medium term - he just needs to be managed correctly.

I think the best option would be to centrally contract Billy and restrict his minutes to the level of the Irish internationals - im sure Billy would be open to that given his stated opposition to the number of games played and it would ease Sarries’ financial burden.

[Scrumhead]

We can agree to disagree on whether Billy is injury prone or not. Recent evidence suggests he is, but the fact that (forearm fractures aside) it’s not typically been repeated issues of the same nature (as in Tuilagi’s case) is a bonus.

Regardless of the reasons, he’s not been as available as we need him to be given that we have based a lot of our game plan around his ability to break the gain line.

I really do think we need to draw a line under Hughes though. He had one amazing season for Wasps (15/16 I think?) where he looked like he real deal, but he’s never looked like the same player since and has never looked like a genuine test 8 IMO. Most of us on this board who were unconvinced on this board made allowances for him adjusting to the step up but he’s never managed it. Injuries may have played a part but even when fit, he’s done nothing to show he’s good enough to warrant starting at 8 (assuming Billy isn’t fit).

I’ve always been an advocate of Morgan’s and I can’t really understand why Eddie was so quick to jettison him and then ignore him at times when he could/should have given him a chance. Then again, that’s just one of lots of strange decisions Eddie’s made ... TBH, even if Morgan was tearing it up in the Premiership, I’m not sure he’d get a recall.

I didn’t mention Carl Fearns but then I think there’s little point in discussing him given that he talked himself out of England contention under Eddie a long time ago and there is no chance of him coming home. There’s also a chance that he’ll be less effective following his knee injury too.

[Scrumhead]

The refracture of the arm is a concern on Billy, if that does suggest a weakness, but I don't think it's down to him being injury prone, it's just unlucky

Yep - could be like Bothma’s ... breaks it, fixes it, breaks it, fixes it, breaks it again, fixes it again ... rinse and repeat.

Hopefully not!

[BenHK]

Part of me thinks that now the 6 shirt is up for grabs - and we don’t have a standout option, even if I think Wilson really deserves a run - we put a big carrier there and if Billy is injured then he will step up to the main carrier role. If we have a 7 & 8 of Curry and Simmonds, if Billy is out, and we have a cadre of 5.5’s at lock I think we could easily balance a pack to have a ball carrier rather than grafter/more mobile option at 6. That theory doesn’t hold quite so true if Cole and Hartley come back into the team; though, conversely, we would next extra carriers.

Jono Ross?



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[Scrumhead]

Hmm - Ross is an interesting one.

I’m not convinced about him as an option at 8 but as a guy who could offer size, aggression and carrying threat he could be worth a shout.

TBH, I don’t really see any more new caps before the World Cup though.

[Tigersman]

Fearns is annoying he keeps mentioning England on twitter and to the press.

But he knew the rules and still backtracked out of his Glous deal, he needs to get over it.

[Mellsblue]

Part of me thinks that now the 6 shirt is up for grabs - and we don’t have a standout option, even if I think Wilson really deserves a run - we put a big carrier there and if Billy is injured then he will step up to the main carrier role. If we have a 7 & 8 of Curry and Simmonds, if Billy is out, and we have a cadre of 5.5’s at lock I think we could easily balance a pack to have a ball carrier rather than grafter/more mobile option at 6. That theory doesn’t hold quite so true if Cole and Hartley come back into the team; though, conversely, we would next extra carriers.

Jono Ross?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My first thought was Ewers, though using an injury prone player as a back up for an ‘injury bribe’ player isn’t the best idea I’ve had. Sadly, it’s not the worst idea I’ve had.

[Puja]

I'm not sure why Morgan is being held onto by some on here. Well actually, I do get it - 2014 Morgan would be very useful to have. However, the date is 2018 and Morgan can't get into the Gloucester starting XV at present. When he's playing well enough to oust a relatively average Saffa, then we should discuss him again.

I wouldn't rule out Mercer yet - he's a bit spindly now, but he's put on a lot of size across the last year and he's got the frame to suggest that another year of growing up will add a bit more to him as well. And in terms of using what weight he has, he's already far more effective than Hughes.

Puja

[Puja]

Fearns is annoying he keeps mentioning England on twitter and to the press.

But he knew the rules and still backtracked out of his Glous deal, he needs to get over it.

Indeed. Move back to the Prem or STFU.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Is Morgan really not ahead of Ackerman?

[Puja]

Is Morgan really not ahead of Ackerman?

Not on the basis of Gloucester selection last year.

Puja

[Gloskarlos]

Is Morgan really not ahead of Ackerman?

Not on the basis of Gloucester selection last year.

Puja

Ackerman was rarely injured, the same cannot be said of Morgan. I wouldn’t equate number of starts to pecking order in this case necessarily.

[p/d]

Armand 6
Curry 7
Kvesic 8

Job done

[Mellsblue]

Armand 6
Curry 7
Kvesic 8

Job done

This, but Willis at 6 and Rees at 8.

[Oakboy]

Or, Willis at 8? He's not going to be fit by the RWC, though, is he?

[Scrumhead]

Is Morgan really not ahead of Ackerman?

Not on the basis of Gloucester selection last year.

Puja

Ackerman was rarely injured, the same cannot be said of Morgan. I wouldn’t equate number of starts to pecking order in this case necessarily.

Exactly ... Morgan’s issue is reliability not quality of performance. My impression is that 17/18 was one of his his better performances in terms of consistency.

[Raggs]

Or, Willis at 8? He's not going to be fit by the RWC, though, is he?

He should be, but likely no game time. Best case scenario has him back in March i think, which might be enough time to prove himself but it'd be tough.

[Puja]

Not on the basis of Gloucester selection last year.

Puja

Ackerman was rarely injured, the same cannot be said of Morgan. I wouldn’t equate number of starts to pecking order in this case necessarily.

Exactly ... Morgan’s issue is reliability not quality of performance. My impression is that 17/18 was one of his his better performances in terms of consistency.

While Morgan was more often injured, when the two of them were fit, it was a very rare occasion that Morgan was preferred and never for big games. You could argue that that's Mallinder-Farrell syndrome, but it's definitely the pecking order as things stand.

Let's hope that he has a good pre-season and gets back to his best next year.

Puja