The Tour - pluses

[fivepointer]

we have 9 games plus 2/3 warm ups before the WC.
Ideally we should be playing our first choice XV in most of these games (with some rotation for japan, Italy and one of the warm ups)
i think we can probably identify 25 of the likely WC squad abut getting the pecking order right and filling in the final 6/7 places isnt straightforward.
I think there's quite a bit of sorting to do, but at least the tour has identified a few players who arent likely to feature.

[Stom]

Are we sure he doesn’t know most of the team? Nailed on must include:
Mako
Hatley
Cole
Itoje
Billy
Youngs
Farrell
Daly/May/Watson

Add in the following as guaranteed squad players:
Marler
Genge
George
Launch
Lawes
Care
Ford
Joseph
Teo
Nowell
Brown

and it all seems very settled, even if you don’t agree with the selections.

I'm sticking with the positions aren't a given.

Mako is in a contest with Marler which wasn't the case 6 months ago

Hatley has retired though granted is a better option than Hartley

Cole wasn't close to a fans favourite when playing and is only drawing kinder reviews now he's not playing

Itoje is a given, but at 4 or 5

Billy is a given, and a given in a known shirt if fit

Youngs is performing to a standard that can't have him nailed down

Farrell looks a given, but at 10 or 12?

Daly, May and Watson, probably a given, but who in what shirt? And Eddie does like Nowell and Brown

So the actual number of known starters and known in what shirt is very, very low.

For me, if fit, we know 6 of the pack with a question mark of whether Itoje plays 4 or 5. I’ve added in Curry as clear first choice given Jones’s post tour comments. Mako maybe in comp with Marler but I’d say he’s clearly first choice. Sadly, the same at hooker. Cole may not be a fan favourite but he is a Jones favourite, and will be even moreso after this tour. That’s not a bad position to be in, even if some are of questionable quality, especially when lock is really a case off too many quality players to fit in to the squad. If Robshaw comes back to form next season you’d add him in as nailed on, too.
Youngs and Farrell are nailed on, sadly (again). Farrell may move to 10 but given he has been an ever present at 12, bar the Ireland match, it’s no more than speculation that he’ll move. I’d agree that the back three is up for grabs postionally wise but it’s pretty clear it’s between three test Lions and arguably the form winger in the world as to who takes those slots. I’d be happy to put some money on us seeing, injury permitting, 11.Daly 14.May 15.Watson for the AIs. Granted, this should’ve been sorted in 16/17 season.
That’s pretty settled given that some of the units/shirts up for grabs are between quality players rather than because of a paucity of quality/options.

Is it any worse than any other major nation, other than Ireland? New Zealand, for example, aren’t settled at 1, 6, 8 (if we’re saying Billy isn’t nailed on then we’d have to say the same of Read), 12, 13 and the back three, which is 3 from 4. Scott Barrett’s performances will also throw a cat amongst the pigeons at lock.

Indeed. If you look at it, we've basically got a choice of 2 in the positions where we're not "settled", which isn't too bad in my mind. It's only really where we'd all change something that we see the issues (9, 12). I think, if everyone is fit, we're looking at a pretty settled:

Mako
George/Hartley
Cole
Itoje
Launch/Kruis
Robshaw
?
Billy
Youngs
Ford
Daly/May
Farrell
Joseph
May/Watson
Watson/Daly/Brown

George/Hartley/?, Marler, Sinckler/Williams, Kruis/Launch/Lawes, ?, ?, ?, Nowell/Watson/May/Brown

To me, that looks pretty damn settled. The only issues are if we want someone else. Jones won't pick another 9 anymore. The only big changes are if Tuilagi comes back firing on all cylinders at the start of the season. Otherwise it's just choices. 3 of 4 for lock, 1 of 2 for backup THP, 7 and bench backrower (a balance issue as well as a choice), is Care the bench 9, or is it someone else? Do we pick Te'o/Tuilagi at 22? And 4 of 5 for the outside back slots.

[Oakboy]

we have 9 games plus 2/3 warm ups before the WC.
Ideally we should be playing our first choice XV in most of these games (with some rotation for japan, Italy and one of the warm ups)
i think we can probably identify 25 of the likely WC squad abut getting the pecking order right and filling in the final 6/7 places isnt straightforward.
I think there's quite a bit of sorting to do, but at least the tour has identified a few players who arent likely to feature.

Your last sentence interests me. Robson, for example, looks like being a reject without a minute's game time. That leads to a belief that Cipriani will not get into the squad. Ford plays with Youngs at club level; Farrell with Spencer. Care has significant international experience with Ford and Farrell. Jones will stick on that, I suspect (wrongly IMO).

We are at the stage where, if we are to have a chance under Jones, he has to pick as close to his 1st XV as he can get for the first AI. I still think he will be guessing far more than he should be and I think some of his stalwarts are the wrong choices.

[Stom]

we have 9 games plus 2/3 warm ups before the WC.
Ideally we should be playing our first choice XV in most of these games (with some rotation for japan, Italy and one of the warm ups)
i think we can probably identify 25 of the likely WC squad abut getting the pecking order right and filling in the final 6/7 places isnt straightforward.
I think there's quite a bit of sorting to do, but at least the tour has identified a few players who arent likely to feature.

I think we're closer to 30, tbh...

Mako, Marler
Hartley(injury permitting), George, LCD
Cole, Sinckler, Williams
Itoje, Lawes
Launch, Kruis
Robshaw, Shields
Curry, Underhill
Billy, Hughes
Youngs, Care
Ford, Farrell
Joseph, Te'o, Slade
May, Daly, Nowell, Watson, Brown

[Oakboy]

we have 9 games plus 2/3 warm ups before the WC.
Ideally we should be playing our first choice XV in most of these games (with some rotation for japan, Italy and one of the warm ups)
i think we can probably identify 25 of the likely WC squad abut getting the pecking order right and filling in the final 6/7 places isnt straightforward.
I think there's quite a bit of sorting to do, but at least the tour has identified a few players who arent likely to feature.

I think we're closer to 30, tbh...

Mako, Marler
Hartley(injury permitting), George, LCD
Cole, Sinckler, Williams
Itoje, Lawes
Launch, Kruis
Robshaw, Shields
Curry, Underhill
Billy, Hughes
Youngs, Care
Ford, Farrell
Joseph, Te'o, Slade
May, Daly, Nowell, Watson, Brown

I think you could have the right of it, Stom, unfortunately. How many are in the upcoming RWC squads, 32?

[Raggs]

Robson I think is now out of it, much like Armand. Eddie has had plenty of time to look them over, and hasn't liked what he sees enough. I may disagree with his decision, but there's clearly something he doesn't like. It's not he's not seen them up close etc.

[Stom]

we have 9 games plus 2/3 warm ups before the WC.
Ideally we should be playing our first choice XV in most of these games (with some rotation for japan, Italy and one of the warm ups)
i think we can probably identify 25 of the likely WC squad abut getting the pecking order right and filling in the final 6/7 places isnt straightforward.
I think there's quite a bit of sorting to do, but at least the tour has identified a few players who arent likely to feature.

I think we're closer to 30, tbh...

Mako, Marler
Hartley(injury permitting), George, LCD
Cole, Sinckler, Williams
Itoje, Lawes
Launch, Kruis
Robshaw, Shields
Curry, Underhill
Billy, Hughes
Youngs, Care
Ford, Farrell
Joseph, Te'o, Slade
May, Daly, Nowell, Watson, Brown

I think you could have the right of it, Stom, unfortunately. How many are in the upcoming RWC squads, 32?

At most we're 2-3 names off what we'd want to see. So I don't see it being a huge problem. Tuilagi could force in, too, whether at the expense of Te'o or someone else remains to be seen. Plus we're likely to bring one more 10 along with the extra 9 and LHP. We could also see some shuffling in the backrow.

But I do think it's reasonably settled, that's not an accusation I'd lay at Jones' door.

Unbalanced and not the right names...now that's a different question. I would much rather something like...

Mako, Marler, Genge
George, LCD, Taylor
Cole, Sinckler, Williams
Itoje, Kruis
Launch, Lawes
Robshaw, Shields
Curry, Underhill
Billy, Clifford
Robson, Care, feck knows?
Ford, Cipriani, Farrell
Tuilagi, Joseph, Slade
Daly, May, Watson, Nowell, Brown

That's 33, though. Is it 33 or 32?

And that has...4? changes. Hardly a huge difference. I think this is pretty much our core group of good players. There aren't really any squad debates, imo.

[Digby]

For me, if fit, we know 6 of the pack with a question mark of whether Itoje plays 4 or 5. I’ve added in Curry as clear first choice given Jones’s post tour comments. Mako maybe in comp with Marler but I’d say he’s clearly first choice. Sadly, the same at hooker. Cole may not be a fan favourite but he is a Jones favourite, and will be even moreso after this tour. That’s not a bad position to be in, even if some are of questionable quality, especially when lock is really a case off too many quality players to fit in to the squad. If Robshaw comes back to form next season you’d add him in as nailed on, too.
Youngs and Farrell are nailed on, sadly (again). Farrell may move to 10 but given he has been an ever present at 12, bar the Ireland match, it’s no more than speculation that he’ll move. I’d agree that the back three is up for grabs postionally wise but it’s pretty clear it’s between three test Lions and arguably the form winger in the world as to who takes those slots. I’d be happy to put some money on us seeing, injury permitting, 11.Daly 14.May 15.Watson for the AIs. Granted, this should’ve been sorted in 16/17 season.
That’s pretty settled given that some of the units/shirts up for grabs are between quality players rather than because of a paucity of quality/options.

Is it any worse than any other major nation, other than Ireland? New Zealand, for example, aren’t settled at 1, 6, 8 (if we’re saying Billy isn’t nailed on then we’d have to say the same of Read), 12, 13 and the back three, which is 3 from 4. Scott Barrett’s performances will also throw a cat amongst the pigeons at lock.

Even allowing for Jones having favourites that seems very generous.

[fivepointer]

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/expert ... n-england/

"South Africa in fairness provided precisely the right level of opposition for England. Pacy in attack, powerful in contact, they extended England in areas that many thought were weak, and perhaps once could argue that Jones’ thinking should be better informed as a result.

Provided they build upon the good points that have come out of the tour and also learn from some of the huge errors, then they’ll be in a better place for it come 2019.

What is certain is it would be foolhardy to jettison anyone of quality at this stage. The key is to learn and learn honestly from the experiences and to learn to select properly and specialists as specialists.

England need to sort their shape, their selection and their culture. They’ve wasted three years experimenting with power rugby and bizarre selections but time is running out and the education they’ve received in the Highveldt needs to frame their future, otherwise there will be no hope of success in Japan"

This is a good piece, reflecting many views on here. Worth looking at.

[Mellsblue]

This is a good piece, reflecting many views on here. Worth looking at.

Contacted the Oxford Collins so they can use this as their example of an oxymoron.

[Oakboy]

Interesting that over half of us voted for Cipriani at 10 and predicted QF exit at the RWC.

The major conflict for me is that, whilst many pundits and journalists criticise Jones in the same areas as this board, they don't link the midfield problem specifically with Farrell.

[Raggs]

Whilst journos are still scoring Farrell 9/10 for the third test, I'm tempted to simply say they don't know what they're talking about (for the most part). Even the ones with credentials that should suggest otherwise.

[Danno]

Whilst journos are still scoring Farrell 9/10 for the third test, I'm tempted to simply say they don't know what they're talking about (for the most part). Even the ones with credentials that should suggest otherwise.

This, a hundred times.

[Peat]

Whilst journos are still scoring Farrell 9/10 for the third test, I'm tempted to simply say they don't know what they're talking about (for the most part). Even the ones with credentials that should suggest otherwise.

That or they feel obliged to keep hyping him up in order to keep access to their sources.

[Mellsblue]

Whilst journos are still scoring Farrell 9/10 for the third test, I'm tempted to simply say they don't know what they're talking about (for the most part). Even the ones with credentials that should suggest otherwise.

That or they feel obliged to keep hyping him up in order to keep access to their sources.

I had it down as group think but you could be right.
A couple of the times’ hacks were less complimentary than usual after the second and before the third test. Afterwards he was back to saving the world.

[Oakboy]

It is hard to be objective about Farrell. Friends, whose rugby knowledge I respect, rate him. In the main, I think they like his feistiness. Also, I think there's an element of seeing him as the straight merchant in the same vein as Andrew, Grayson or Wilkinson. There is something in many English fans' psyche that says functional, safe and good at kicking off the tee is the way to go when it comes to our FH. Many actually feel sympathy for him at having to play IC to the extent that they overlook his inadequacies.

[Digby]

Farrell does apart from being a very good player himself really drive a team, and it's not just the organisation that comes with Ford but demanding the effort from others and putting in the effort himself. There's a lot to like about him, and he's probably our best points kicker too

[Mellsblue]

If he’s driving the team he needs his ‘P’ plates.

[morepork]

How does he drive a team, exactly?

[Raggs]

Farrell does apart from being a very good player himself really drive a team, and it's not just the organisation that comes with Ford but demanding the effort from others and putting in the effort himself. There's a lot to like about him, and he's probably our best points kicker too

Can't argue with that, he's always working hard himself (albeit not always effectively), and you can constantly hear him yelling at players to get back on their feet, back in the game etc.

[Oakboy]

Farrell does apart from being a very good player himself really drive a team, and it's not just the organisation that comes with Ford but demanding the effort from others and putting in the effort himself. There's a lot to like about him, and he's probably our best points kicker too

Can't argue with that, he's always working hard himself (albeit not always effectively), and you can constantly hear him yelling at players to get back on their feet, back in the game etc.

That's the crunch. Yes, he's a good sergeant major. He can take some training motivators on to the pitch. Where he comes unstuck, because of or despite of coaching, is in the game directional leadership. Assuming that he gets in the XV on playing merit, he is a vice-captain at best. The team needs a general.

[Stom]

Farrell does apart from being a very good player himself really drive a team, and it's not just the organisation that comes with Ford but demanding the effort from others and putting in the effort himself. There's a lot to like about him, and he's probably our best points kicker too

Can't argue with that, he's always working hard himself (albeit not always effectively), and you can constantly hear him yelling at players to get back on their feet, back in the game etc.

That's the crunch. Yes, he's a good sergeant major. He can take some training motivators on to the pitch. Where he comes unstuck, because of or despite of coaching, is in the game directional leadership. Assuming that he gets in the XV on playing merit, he is a vice-captain at best. The team needs a general.

I agree on the sergeant major part, but I'd say Jones should be the general. He doesn't get down and dirty, he sits back and oversees the strategy. Meanwhile, it's the captain who decides the minutiae. So let's keep it simple and stick to captain

And what's the difference between a captain and a sergeant major? The captain is commissioned, the SM is rank and file. Why not give Ford the captaincy? I don't see the point in having a loud mouth braggart as captain, it's not right. The captain should be able to speak with authority and clarity. The VC can be a blood and thunder type, but the captain, in rugby, should have a clear head.

[fivepointer]

Resistance is futile.
I'm now a convert.
Faz is the man based on his ability to shout at people, try really hard and slot the odd goal kick.

[Stom]

Resistance is futile.
I'm now a convert.
Faz is the man based on his ability to shout at people, try really hard and slot the odd goal kick.

I still think he's a poor international centre and a below average international 10.

[Peat]

Whilst journos are still scoring Farrell 9/10 for the third test, I'm tempted to simply say they don't know what they're talking about (for the most part). Even the ones with credentials that should suggest otherwise.

That or they feel obliged to keep hyping him up in order to keep access to their sources.

I had it down as group think but you could be right.
A couple of the times’ hacks were less complimentary than usual after the second and before the third test. Afterwards he was back to saving the world.

Could be a mix of all of it.

I think Oakboy is right to say there's a large streak of English rugby opinion that think FHs should be conservative and judged mainly on their kicking game - and also the feistiness. He's a living embodiment of the whole British Bulldog spirit where ability is less important than pluck.

Meanwhile, the rest of us are observing a game where you win by being better, rather than being braver. And every time we try to mention it to the others, we're told "Oh so you prefer X to Y" when the answer is "No, you need X and Y, because that's what the other lot has".

I suppose we should take the media being willing to criticise Farrell for even a nano-second as a positive.