The Tour - pluses

[Spiffy]

Was more 36 over Atkinson.....

Ah.

Well, I stand by my point anyway.

He does seem to have a better skill set for 12 than Farrell, though 36 isn't excused the errors in similar fashion for whatever reason.

I would say I wonder if me moved Farrell back to 10 adding some physicality there whether we'd look at Eastmond at 12 again, but I don't really wonder. And there is a problem we're absent of even one obvious selection at 12

Farrell is quite large and looks tough, though in reality he is no tougher that anyone else. He is actually not that physical at all, either as a runner, and especially as a defender, where his tackle stats are quite poor. I think little George Ford has a better record, but have not bothered to check.

[Oakboy]

Ah.

Well, I stand by my point anyway.

He does seem to have a better skill set for 12 than Farrell, though 36 isn't excused the errors in similar fashion for whatever reason.

I would say I wonder if me moved Farrell back to 10 adding some physicality there whether we'd look at Eastmond at 12 again, but I don't really wonder. And there is a problem we're absent of even one obvious selection at 12

Farrell is quite large and looks tough, though in reality he is no tougher that anyone else. He is actually not that physical at all, either as a runner, and especially as a defender, where his tackle stats are quite poor. I think little George Ford has a better record, but have not bothered to check.

It all depends on whether you want to set up so that the opposition concentrate on attacking the 10. I agree that Farrell is not as hard as perceived but the opposition rarely attack him whereas they often target Ford. We can go round and round on this subject but I would still prefer to do without all four of Youngs, Care, Ford and Farrell in the long-term interests of the team.

[Mellsblue]

He does seem to have a better skill set for 12 than Farrell, though 36 isn't excused the errors in similar fashion for whatever reason.

I would say I wonder if me moved Farrell back to 10 adding some physicality there whether we'd look at Eastmond at 12 again, but I don't really wonder. And there is a problem we're absent of even one obvious selection at 12

Farrell is quite large and looks tough, though in reality he is no tougher that anyone else. He is actually not that physical at all, either as a runner, and especially as a defender, where his tackle stats are quite poor. I think little George Ford has a better record, but have not bothered to check.

It all depends on whether you want to set up so that the opposition concentrate on attacking the 10. I agree that Farrell is not as hard as perceived but the opposition rarely attack him whereas they often target Ford. We can go round and round on this subject but I would still prefer to do without all four of Youngs, Care, Ford and Farrell in the long-term interests of the team.

Whereas Cipriani wouldn’t be targeted. Even Dai Young made asides in public that his defence isn’t the best.

[Raggs]

Cips got brushed off, barged back etc didn't see him as particularly better than Ford regardless of his extra mass.

[Mellsblue]

Yep, though I thought he put his shoulder in better than usual in that third test. Regardless, I am happy with either at 10 even if they will be targeted. Just thought it a strange reason to get rid of Ford only to replace him with some equally as fallible.

[Oakboy]

The difference might just be that Cipriani's hands are quick enough to exploit the situation. Having said that, where did I ever say that Cipriani was better in defence than Ford? All I was pointing out was that Farrell is perceived as invulnerable (rightly or wrongly) based on the opposition's apparent unwillingness to attack the 10 channel when he is there compared with when Ford is. The perception that Farrell is a tough nut defensively was the point, not whether Ford or Cipriani are better than each other at defending the 10 slot.

[Mellsblue]

The difference might just be that Cipriani's hands are quick enough to exploit the situation. Having said that, where did I ever say that Cipriani was better in defence than Ford? All I was pointing out was that Farrell is perceived as invulnerable (rightly or wrongly) based on the opposition's apparent unwillingness to attack the 10 channel when he is there compared with when Ford is. The perception that Farrell is a tough nut defensively was the point, not whether Ford or Cipriani are better than each other at defending the 10 slot.

Cipriani’s hands are no quicker than Ford’s. You said that Ford is targeted and then repeated you wanted him binned, along with the other three. Sorry if I added two and two and came up with five but it certainly reads like two plus two = bin Ford as he’s defensively frail.

[Raggs]

I think Cip's hands are more deceptive than Fords. I've not seen Ford pull off the no look, double pump fake passes that Cips can do when his team is ticking around him. However I don't think we can really tell who's the better international, given what's going on around them.

Farrell to get a nasty stubbed toe just before the upcoming AIs, with Manu having been tearing it up and Joseph rediscovering his dancing feet please...

Or any 12 really, Devoto would be nice, Le bourgeois a nice surprise, Atkinson, 36, Eastmond deciding to stay in union and not getting broken etc.

[Mellsblue]

I’ve seen Ford double pump a lot of times....oh, err, missus. As with all comparisons they have stronger and weaker suits. I think Ford is actually better at receiving and distributing in one movement, Cipriani better at picking the inside runner, Ford better at picking the correct option on wider plays, Cips the more dangerous on an outside arc....both great attacking 10’s, though.

As for your potential IC’s, I see we have yet another convert to the magic of Goldington Rd finishing school

[Scrumhead]

I think Cip's hands are more deceptive than Fords. I've not seen Ford pull off the no look, double pump fake passes that Cips can do when his team is ticking around him. However I don't think we can really tell who's the better international, given what's going on around them.

Farrell to get a nasty stubbed toe just before the upcoming AIs, with Manu having been tearing it up and Joseph rediscovering his dancing feet please...

Or any 12 really, Devoto would be nice, Le bourgeois a nice surprise, Atkinson, 36, Eastmond deciding to stay in union and not getting broken etc.

If Le Bourgeois can go from the Championship to the England squad in a World Cup season that would be a phenomenal achievement. I know he’s highly rated but that would be a miracle story.

[Raggs]

That's dreaming as a wasps fan .

[Digby]

Ah.

Well, I stand by my point anyway.

He does seem to have a better skill set for 12 than Farrell, though 36 isn't excused the errors in similar fashion for whatever reason.

I would say I wonder if me moved Farrell back to 10 adding some physicality there whether we'd look at Eastmond at 12 again, but I don't really wonder. And there is a problem we're absent of even one obvious selection at 12

Farrell is quite large and looks tough, though in reality he is no tougher that anyone else. He is actually not that physical at all, either as a runner, and especially as a defender, where his tackle stats are quite poor. I think little George Ford has a better record, but have not bothered to check.

Farrell isn't that physical compared to which other options at 10? The missed tackles, especially as part of the blitz is a different thing.

As a 10 Farrell's well clear of the pack in England for physicality, and instead you'd end up debating do you even want your 10 in the breakdown, though even then it's hardly unusual for Ford to find himself supporting our breakdown.

[Scrumhead]

That's dreaming as a wasps fan .

Yeah I know. It would be an awesome story though, so I’m happy to share your dream on this one! On paper he has the size/playing style to be exactly what we need.

[Stom]

He does seem to have a better skill set for 12 than Farrell, though 36 isn't excused the errors in similar fashion for whatever reason.

I would say I wonder if me moved Farrell back to 10 adding some physicality there whether we'd look at Eastmond at 12 again, but I don't really wonder. And there is a problem we're absent of even one obvious selection at 12

Farrell is quite large and looks tough, though in reality he is no tougher that anyone else. He is actually not that physical at all, either as a runner, and especially as a defender, where his tackle stats are quite poor. I think little George Ford has a better record, but have not bothered to check.

Farrell isn't that physical compared to which other options at 10? The missed tackles, especially as part of the blitz is a different thing.

As a 10 Farrell's well clear of the pack in England for physicality, and instead you'd end up debating do you even want your 10 in the breakdown, though even then it's hardly unusual for Ford to find himself supporting our breakdown.

Indeed. Too often do we conflate tackling and defense. Farrell is a good tackler. He's not a good defender.

Often, Ford serves to simply slow the attacker down, aiming to get out of the tackle situation as quickly as possible. This isn't because he doesn't want to make a tackle, but rather because that's what the system needs: your 10 should be available in play for as much of the 80 as possible. When it is called for, he makes the tackle. He nearly always gives up ground, sure, but which top 10 outside Wilkinson doesn't?

[Peat]

I think Cip's hands are more deceptive than Fords. I've not seen Ford pull off the no look, double pump fake passes that Cips can do when his team is ticking around him. However I don't think we can really tell who's the better international, given what's going on around them.

Farrell to get a nasty stubbed toe just before the upcoming AIs, with Manu having been tearing it up and Joseph rediscovering his dancing feet please...

Or any 12 really, Devoto would be nice, Le bourgeois a nice surprise, Atkinson, 36, Eastmond deciding to stay in union and not getting broken etc.

Having watched a bunch of domestic highlights from both of their seasons, I'd agree. I think Ford seems keener on testing overly aggressive drifts - and some of his delayed passes behind blitzers were awesome - but Cips ability to really use a group of runners seems a bit better.

I'd love to watch the two of them really compete for an international shirt.

[Oakboy]

I think Cip's hands are more deceptive than Fords. I've not seen Ford pull off the no look, double pump fake passes that Cips can do when his team is ticking around him. However I don't think we can really tell who's the better international, given what's going on around them.

Farrell to get a nasty stubbed toe just before the upcoming AIs, with Manu having been tearing it up and Joseph rediscovering his dancing feet please...

Or any 12 really, Devoto would be nice, Le bourgeois a nice surprise, Atkinson, 36, Eastmond deciding to stay in union and not getting broken etc.

Having watched a bunch of domestic highlights from both of their seasons, I'd agree. I think Ford seems keener on testing overly aggressive drifts - and some of his delayed passes behind blitzers were awesome - but Cips ability to really use a group of runners seems a bit better.

I'd love to watch the two of them really compete for an international shirt.

With Farrell at 12?


Much as I think Cipriani is the better of the two FHs, I have to accept that Ford might suit the team more IF Farrell is at 12 - unless Cipriani's presence completely revives JJ. Again, I'm a big fan of Slade but he is heading down the same narrow tunnel of frustration as JJ if he has to play outside Youngs, Ford and Farrell.

[Stom]

I think Cip's hands are more deceptive than Fords. I've not seen Ford pull off the no look, double pump fake passes that Cips can do when his team is ticking around him. However I don't think we can really tell who's the better international, given what's going on around them.

Farrell to get a nasty stubbed toe just before the upcoming AIs, with Manu having been tearing it up and Joseph rediscovering his dancing feet please...

Or any 12 really, Devoto would be nice, Le bourgeois a nice surprise, Atkinson, 36, Eastmond deciding to stay in union and not getting broken etc.

Having watched a bunch of domestic highlights from both of their seasons, I'd agree. I think Ford seems keener on testing overly aggressive drifts - and some of his delayed passes behind blitzers were awesome - but Cips ability to really use a group of runners seems a bit better.

I'd love to watch the two of them really compete for an international shirt.

Cips is a better runner and his use of close support is excellent. Ford's game management is better and his use of wide support is excellent.

Considering our tight carrying has been pretty crap for a while now, while out wide we now have May, Daly, Watson, Joseph...I think I'd plump for Ford.

[Mellsblue]

I think Cip's hands are more deceptive than Fords. I've not seen Ford pull off the no look, double pump fake passes that Cips can do when his team is ticking around him. However I don't think we can really tell who's the better international, given what's going on around them.

Farrell to get a nasty stubbed toe just before the upcoming AIs, with Manu having been tearing it up and Joseph rediscovering his dancing feet please...

Or any 12 really, Devoto would be nice, Le bourgeois a nice surprise, Atkinson, 36, Eastmond deciding to stay in union and not getting broken etc.

Having watched a bunch of domestic highlights from both of their seasons, I'd agree. I think Ford seems keener on testing overly aggressive drifts - and some of his delayed passes behind blitzers were awesome - but Cips ability to really use a group of runners seems a bit better.

I'd love to watch the two of them really compete for an international shirt.

Cips is a better runner and his use of close support is excellent. Ford's game management is better and his use of wide support is excellent.

Considering our tight carrying has been pretty crap for a while now, while out wide we now have May, Daly, Watson, Joseph...I think I'd plump for Ford.

Me too, with Cipriani on the bench. Imagine:
10. Ford
12. Atkinson
13. 12t

22. Cipriani
23. Le Bourgeois

Unbeatable.

[Peat]

I think Cip's hands are more deceptive than Fords. I've not seen Ford pull off the no look, double pump fake passes that Cips can do when his team is ticking around him. However I don't think we can really tell who's the better international, given what's going on around them.

Farrell to get a nasty stubbed toe just before the upcoming AIs, with Manu having been tearing it up and Joseph rediscovering his dancing feet please...

Or any 12 really, Devoto would be nice, Le bourgeois a nice surprise, Atkinson, 36, Eastmond deciding to stay in union and not getting broken etc.

Having watched a bunch of domestic highlights from both of their seasons, I'd agree. I think Ford seems keener on testing overly aggressive drifts - and some of his delayed passes behind blitzers were awesome - but Cips ability to really use a group of runners seems a bit better.

I'd love to watch the two of them really compete for an international shirt.

With Farrell at 12?


Much as I think Cipriani is the better of the two FHs, I have to accept that Ford might suit the team more IF Farrell is at 12 - unless Cipriani's presence completely revives JJ. Again, I'm a big fan of Slade but he is heading down the same narrow tunnel of frustration as JJ if he has to play outside Youngs, Ford and Farrell.

Sure. Because it means Farrell won't be at 10, which is a decent start.

[Spiffy]

Farrell is quite large and looks tough, though in reality he is no tougher that anyone else. He is actually not that physical at all, either as a runner, and especially as a defender, where his tackle stats are quite poor. I think little George Ford has a better record, but have not bothered to check.

Farrell isn't that physical compared to which other options at 10? The missed tackles, especially as part of the blitz is a different thing.

As a 10 Farrell's well clear of the pack in England for physicality, and instead you'd end up debating do you even want your 10 in the breakdown, though even then it's hardly unusual for Ford to find himself supporting our breakdown.

Indeed. Too often do we conflate tackling and defense. Farrell is a good tackler. He's not a good defender.

Often, Ford serves to simply slow the attacker down, aiming to get out of the tackle situation as quickly as possible. This isn't because he doesn't want to make a tackle, but rather because that's what the system needs: your 10 should be available in play for as much of the 80 as possible. When it is called for, he makes the tackle. He nearly always gives up ground, sure, but which top 10 outside Wilkinson doesn't?

Pure semantics. Many (self included) would say you have to complete a high proportion of attempted tackles to be called a good tackler, not just show a good technique in the low percentage that you manage to bring off. That's like saying a hooker is a great striker, only if you consider the balls that he actually wins.

[Stom]

Farrell isn't that physical compared to which other options at 10? The missed tackles, especially as part of the blitz is a different thing.

As a 10 Farrell's well clear of the pack in England for physicality, and instead you'd end up debating do you even want your 10 in the breakdown, though even then it's hardly unusual for Ford to find himself supporting our breakdown.

Indeed. Too often do we conflate tackling and defense. Farrell is a good tackler. He's not a good defender.

Often, Ford serves to simply slow the attacker down, aiming to get out of the tackle situation as quickly as possible. This isn't because he doesn't want to make a tackle, but rather because that's what the system needs: your 10 should be available in play for as much of the 80 as possible. When it is called for, he makes the tackle. He nearly always gives up ground, sure, but which top 10 outside Wilkinson doesn't?

Pure semantics. Many (self included) would say you have to complete a high proportion of attempted tackles to be called a good tackler, not just show a good technique in the low percentage that you manage to bring off. That's like saying a hooker is a great striker, only if you consider the balls that he actually wins.

Hardly. A good defender may make more tackles because he's always in the right place. Or he may make fewer because there's never a dog leg or gap in the line where he is. A good tackler may leave dog legs or he may read the game so badly he's always in the wrong place.

[Spiffy]

Indeed. Too often do we conflate tackling and defense. Farrell is a good tackler. He's not a good defender.

Often, Ford serves to simply slow the attacker down, aiming to get out of the tackle situation as quickly as possible. This isn't because he doesn't want to make a tackle, but rather because that's what the system needs: your 10 should be available in play for as much of the 80 as possible. When it is called for, he makes the tackle. He nearly always gives up ground, sure, but which top 10 outside Wilkinson doesn't?

Pure semantics. Many (self included) would say you have to complete a high proportion of attempted tackles to be called a good tackler, not just show a good technique in the low percentage that you manage to bring off. That's like saying a hooker is a great striker, only if you consider the balls that he actually wins.

Hardly. A good defender may make more tackles because he's always in the right place. Or he may make fewer because there's never a dog leg or gap in the line where he is. A good tackler may leave dog legs or he may read the game so badly he's always in the wrong place.

Fair enough - be we are talking about differernt things here. A good tackler does not miss a high proportion of those tackles he actually attempts. Once you get your mitts on the opponent he should not escape. I have seen opponents shake off Farrell many times. A missed tackle is, after all, a tackle you attempt but miss. It is not a tackle you did not attempt to make because you were somewhere else on the pitch.

[morepork]

A good defender also saves tries. I think I've seen Ford sweep a few try saving tackles. Cipriani, dunno. Farrell acts like an extra ineffective flanker that doesn't read the game particularly well. Beauden Barrett is excellent on cover defense, mainly cos he is quick, and Daniel Cartier would regularly bring down the big trucks coming through holes because he was watching what was going on. There is a certain flair to defending as well as attacking. The coach helps with that quite a lot.

[Mikey Brown]

Hmm. I’d definitely say Faz is physical for a 10, and that physicality actually helps paper over the shoddiness of some of his defence, both in position and tackle technique.

It’s a shame physicality is so far down the list of things required for a 10, and he doesn’t particularly show it when he has the ball as a 12.

[Digby]

A good defender also saves tries. I think I've seen Ford sweep a few try saving tackles. Cipriani, dunno. Farrell acts like an extra ineffective flanker that doesn't read the game particularly well. Beauden Barrett is excellent on cover defense, mainly cos he is quick, and Daniel Cartier would regularly bring down the big trucks coming through holes because he was watching what was going on. There is a certain flair to defending as well as attacking. The coach helps with that quite a lot.

Also BB is a classic 10 and looks to avoid front on tackles