The Tour - pluses

[morepork]

Isn't that what you Engrish love? A classic 10 that scores tries?

[Stom]

A 10 who scores tries? You mean converts them, right?

[Digby]

Tries?

[Spiffy]

A good defender also saves tries. I think I've seen Ford sweep a few try saving tackles. Cipriani, dunno. Farrell acts like an extra ineffective flanker that doesn't read the game particularly well. Beauden Barrett is excellent on cover defense, mainly cos he is quick, and Daniel Cartier would regularly bring down the big trucks coming through holes because he was watching what was going on. There is a certain flair to defending as well as attacking. The coach helps with that quite a lot.

Ooh la la! Danny has gone up in the world.

[morepork]

A good defender also saves tries. I think I've seen Ford sweep a few try saving tackles. Cipriani, dunno. Farrell acts like an extra ineffective flanker that doesn't read the game particularly well. Beauden Barrett is excellent on cover defense, mainly cos he is quick, and Daniel Cartier would regularly bring down the big trucks coming through holes because he was watching what was going on. There is a certain flair to defending as well as attacking. The coach helps with that quite a lot.

Ooh la la! Danny has gone up in the world.

Daniel has long been a slave to fashion.

[morepork]

A good defender also saves tries. I think I've seen Ford sweep a few try saving tackles. Cipriani, dunno. Farrell acts like an extra ineffective flanker that doesn't read the game particularly well. Beauden Barrett is excellent on cover defense, mainly cos he is quick, and Daniel Cartier would regularly bring down the big trucks coming through holes because he was watching what was going on. There is a certain flair to defending as well as attacking. The coach helps with that quite a lot.

Also BB is a classic 10 and looks to avoid front on tackles

Did I mention the tries? Keep your static wooden northern interloper. I wish the best for all of your backs that subsist on the potato famine that is Owen Farrells left hand side.

[Galfon]

12T getting mentions ?..he's got inches on Fazzle & Slazzle plus a stone or 2 on both of them.. rarely gets speed-bumped.Ok decision making, wayward passing and dropping the ball can frustrate but with a slick either side of him still reckon he'd be more than useful.

[Mellsblue]

Tries?

This unfair. I’m sure they all try their best.

[Gloskarlos]

12T getting mentions ?..he's got inches on Fazzle & Slazzle plus a stone or 2 on both of them.. rarely gets speed-bumped.Ok decision making, wayward passing and dropping the ball can frustrate but with a slick either side of him still reckon he'd be more than useful.

Last season he was much better for sure.

Seems still that each 36 brain fart results in a try for the opposition, far fewer minor mistakes, but the odd howler still remains.

His kicking percentage was half decent last season as well if I recall correctly..

[oldbackrow]

I'm not sure comparing a 12's tackle stats (especially given how poorly the team played) to a 10's is like for like but found this an interesting read
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/owen-far ... years-ago/

[Mellsblue]

It’s something that’s been brought up repeatedly on here but it’s good to see it in black and white. Not sure about the last para. I’ve not seen him minding Ford. I’ll accept that a decent percentage of the missed tackles are him rushing up and sending a runner back towards our pack rather than setting himself properly for the tackle, but he also misses quite a few simple tackles, too.

[Raggs]

Him minding Ford is just another excuse, like how all his misses are just because he's blitzing so super fast, and corralling players into the arms of others every time, it's actually better that he misses them!!!!!

Warning, there may have been exaggeration in the above paragraph.

[oldbackrow]

It’s something that’s been brought up repeatedly on here but it’s good to see it in black and white. Not sure about the last para. I’ve not seen him minding Ford. I’ll accept that a decent percentage of the missed tackles are him rushing up and sending a runner back towards our pack rather than setting himself properly for the tackle, but he also misses quite a few simple tackles, too.

He did in the tunnel before the Scotland game, when Wilson was raging into Fords face!

[Oakboy]

Maybe all problems - Ford's and ours - would be over if he switched to SH.

[Stom]

Maybe all problems - Ford's and ours - would be over if he switched to SH.

It would be lovely to be rid of Youngs...

[Which Tyler]

Maybe all problems - Ford's and ours - would be over if he switched to SH.

I think I suggested that when he was coming up through the age-grade ranks, but was shouted down for wasting his talent there (my idea was one of those invaluable French style SH/FH duo.s).

It’s something that’s been brought up repeatedly on here but it’s good to see it in black and white. Not sure about the last para. I’ve not seen him minding Ford. I’ll accept that a decent percentage of the missed tackles are him rushing up and sending a runner back towards our pack rather than setting himself properly for the tackle, but he also misses quite a few simple tackles, too.

Which is fair enough when he's playing FH and targeting the outside shoulder of the opposition FH - doesn't really come close to working when he's at IC with more ground to cover and ends up presenting a beautiful dog-leg instead.

To me over the years it just shouts out that he's an indisciplined puppy who can't stop himself from rushing out of the line in defence. Sarries are able to tune this into being a positive, by sending him a step to the left, giving him a defensive rock at IC, and keeping it all close to his flanker so that turning in the ball carrier works.
For England, he's usually got a defensive rock at OC, but he's got too much ground to make up standing at IC instead, so tends to fail. If he does get the line speed up and pressure his opposite number, then at best, he's turning the carrier into Ford's channel which our flankers are too slow to properly guard for him - so he presents a nice dog-leg in the defensive line, and actively invites the attacker to run at a small, isolated FH.


He's getting better (as he is in all aspects of play), but at IC for England, he's still a defensive liability.

[Mellsblue]

Maybe all problems - Ford's and ours - would be over if he switched to SH.

I think I suggested that when he was coming up through the age-grade ranks, but was shouted down for wasting his talent there (my idea was one of those invaluable French style SH/FH duo.s).

It’s something that’s been brought up repeatedly on here but it’s good to see it in black and white. Not sure about the last para. I’ve not seen him minding Ford. I’ll accept that a decent percentage of the missed tackles are him rushing up and sending a runner back towards our pack rather than setting himself properly for the tackle, but he also misses quite a few simple tackles, too.

Which is fair enough when he's playing FH and targeting the outside shoulder of the opposition FH - doesn't really come close to working when he's at IC with more ground to cover and ends up presenting a beautiful dog-leg instead.

And rightly shouted down. We can argue about his qualities now, and I still think he’ll be world class if given the correct team, but at age grade he was playing years above himself and was still one of the class acts on the pitch.

As for Farrell, the wild man flying out is madness but either he’s asked to do it - damn the coaches - or he’s been doing it for years against instructions and been allowed to get away with - damn everyone.

[Oakboy]

And rightly shouted down. We can argue about his qualities now, and I still think he’ll be world class if given the correct team, but at age grade he was playing years above himself and was still one of the class acts on the pitch.

Forgetting Cipriani for once (painful as it is), ask me the straight question, "Is Ford a better FH than Farrell?" and I'd immediately say, "Yes."

What I fail to understand is why so few would say the same, other than members of this board. From Lions selection to punditry and beyond, most advocate Farrell, of the two.

My problem with Ford always is based on his performance when Farrell is at 12 to the extent that I'd rather have Farrell at 10 and a different 12 than tolerate both in the team together. Add on reports that the two of them are effectively coaching the backs and I'd cheerfully see both confined to oblivion accompanied by Youngs and Care.

My contention is simple. We won't perform at our best with the status quo. Something has to change. Can Ford be one of the great FHs? Possibly, but not with Farrell at 12, nor with either of those two SHs.

[Spiffy]

And rightly shouted down. We can argue about his qualities now, and I still think he’ll be world class if given the correct team, but at age grade he was playing years above himself and was still one of the class acts on the pitch.

Forgetting Cipriani for once (painful as it is), ask me the straight question, "Is Ford a better FH than Farrell?" and I'd immediately say, "Yes."

What I fail to understand is why so few would say the same, other than members of this board. From Lions selection to punditry and beyond, most advocate Farrell, of the two.

My problem with Ford always is based on his performance when Farrell is at 12 to the extent that I'd rather have Farrell at 10 and a different 12 than tolerate both in the team together. Add on reports that the two of them are effectively coaching the backs and I'd cheerfully see both confined to oblivion accompanied by Youngs and Care.

My contention is simple. We won't perform at our best with the status quo. Something has to change. Can Ford be one of the great FHs? Possibly, but not with Farrell at 12, nor with either of those two SHs.

Agree with all that. Just to complicate things a little further - the future is not all just about Ford/Faz/Cips. At the end of last season a couple of highly talented kids - Smith (Quins) and Simmonds (Exeter) were putting in some great performances and showing a lot of confidence and maturity in all aspects of FH play. I am not saying either is ready for the RWC,but if they continue this form they will be serious England contenders before long.

[Raggs]

I'm still not sold on Simmonds, just as I wasn't sold on Farrell a while ago. He's behind a normally completely dominant pack, that supports play fantastically (and rather illegally in my mind) which covers up any mistakes he may make when choosing to run etc, and Exeter tend to run a very set pattern. He's definitely a decent player, but I'm definitely not thinking I have to see him in an England shirt at the moment.

[Which Tyler]

There's some very good young FHs coming through - I've absolutely no idea who's going to excel out of Simmonds, Smith, Malins, Grayson, DeGlanville, even Despatch may yet make it as a FH.
All of these could conceivably be fighting Ford and Farrell come 2023 (though Malins will need to move club if he wants to be a FH rather than GoodeII)