Which Premiership club has done the best transfer business?

[Scrumhead]

Looking at the squads and various transfers, there are a few clubs that have done some very good business.

I’m not sure who’s done the best though. For me, it’s between Gloucester, Wasps, Leicester and Sale.

I’m gauging it primarily by the net gain from ins and outs in terms of quality and value for money.

IMO, Gloucester have only really upgraded. You could argue Marais is not obviously better than Hibbard. However, he’s considerably younger and probably better value for money. I’d say that Kriel, Mostert, Grobler, Dreyer and Banahan are better than the outgoing players they’re effectively replacing and Cipriani is the icing on the cake. Their squad now has plenty of class and I’d expect them to challenge for the top 4.

Whether Sopoaga is an upgrade on Cipriani is debatable (I don’t think he is BTW), but I think all Wasps’ other signings are all at least as good, if not better than the players they’re replacing. Shields and Carr are pretty much like for like (but younger) swaps for Haskell and Thompson but if Dai Young can work some magic on Brookes, he has shown in the past that he could be a lot better than Moore. Zhvania will beef up the front row too. The glut of signings from the Championship are a cost-effective gamble. Le Bourgeois, in particular is very highly rated and could prove to be an excellent late-bloomer.

Leicester have made good signings. Spencer, Denton and Thompson are all upgrades and should make a big difference to their pack. If they click, Leicester could be a lot less toothless than they have been in the recent past.

Sale have only really made net gains IMO. Diamond did some great business last year with de Klerk, Ross and Strauss really coming good. He’s built on that again with van Rensburg and Ashton. Van Rensburg looked good in his loan spell and if Ashton can get on his shoulder, Sale could have a very dangerous attacking back line.

Thoughts?

[Peej]

Between Sale and Gloucester for me. I think Glos will be Top 4 this season

[fivepointer]

full list here - https://www.rugbypass.com/news/gallaghe ... 9-ins-outs

dont like the SA tilt at Glos but they have recruited well. think Tigers have done some decent business too.

[Gloskarlos]

full list here - https://www.rugbypass.com/news/gallaghe ... 9-ins-outs

dont like the SA tilt at Glos but they have recruited well. think Tigers have done some decent business too.

5 South Africans replacing 3 x New Zealanders, 1 x Tongan, 1 x Australian, 2 x Welshies, 1 x Scotlander

if they are non EQP does it matter that they are all from the same place?

Lions can definitely feel aggrieved, I get that part certainly. Or is it the coach and his son that makes you think there is too much of a tilt?

[Which Tyler]

5 South Africans replacing 3 x New Zealanders, 1 x Tongan, 1 x Australian, 2 x Welshies, 1 x Scotlander

if they are non EQP does it matter that they are all from the same place?

Lions can definitely feel aggrieved, I get that part certainly. Or is it the coach and his son that makes you think there is too much of a tilt?

Only in the same way that it mattered when Saracens brought in 6 Saffers... (though that was aggravated by the night of the long knives and an active campaign of being obnoxious)

[Raggs]

Glaws and Sale are top for me. It's tougher for top teams in many ways though, since they're already spending upto the limit. Sale weren't even close to the cap, so you'd hope that now they have money, their recruits boost them a lot.

[Gloskarlos]

5 South Africans replacing 3 x New Zealanders, 1 x Tongan, 1 x Australian, 2 x Welshies, 1 x Scotlander

if they are non EQP does it matter that they are all from the same place?

Lions can definitely feel aggrieved, I get that part certainly. Or is it the coach and his son that makes you think there is too much of a tilt?

Only in the same way that it mattered when Saracens brought in 6 Saffers... (though that was aggravated by the night of the long knives and an active campaign of being obnoxious)

That was pretty different though in all areas wasn't it? South African backers pumped circa 6million into the club and Sarries offloading 18 odd players for South African imports (thought there were quite a few more than 6 including non first teamers but I may be incorrect there) It was also going to be a South African franchise at one point.

The situations are not alike in my view - I do of course come at it with cherry and white tinted specs.

[Stom]

Quins could have done great business, instead we've kind of done half and half...

Tapuai over Roberts is good. Dombrandt could be very good. Symons is an upgrade on Matthews.

But losing Twomey, who I thought was better than the Champ, Aspland-Robinson - we used to be the ones stealing Tigers' academy players - and Sloan soured it a little. Plus we didn't really bring in anyone of utter top quality.

Which suggests we're going to over-rely on the England contingent again. Let's hope the likes of Bothma and Saili are fit when the England players are away this time round.

[Tigersman]

Not sold on sales signings really.
Addison and Haley will be missed, RJVR and Ashton are great players, but who has ever looked at the Sale team and thought they are two backs off a really good team?
Diamonds just doesn't seem to want to sign a really top tight 5 player for some reason (Especially considering where he played when playing) I just don't see how much improvement they will do without getting in some top props and locks.

[Raggs]

Fair comment actually. What happens if 80 minute Harrison goes down?

[Mellsblue]

Rumours that three test forwards are in advanced negotiations.

[Tigersman]

Rumours that three test forwards are in advanced negotiations.

Sale have also been rumoured with 20+ players this season.
Knowing Diamond he will sign 3 International backrowers and get them to play lock.

[fivepointer]

full list here - https://www.rugbypass.com/news/gallaghe ... 9-ins-outs

dont like the SA tilt at Glos but they have recruited well. think Tigers have done some decent business too.

5 South Africans replacing 3 x New Zealanders, 1 x Tongan, 1 x Australian, 2 x Welshies, 1 x Scotlander

if they are non EQP does it matter that they are all from the same place?

Lions can definitely feel aggrieved, I get that part certainly. Or is it the coach and his son that makes you think there is too much of a tilt?

My position is the less non EQP in the Premiership the better. Its just that. With Ackerman as coach it was probably inevitable he would bring in players he knows and trusts.

[Raggs]

full list here - https://www.rugbypass.com/news/gallaghe ... 9-ins-outs

dont like the SA tilt at Glos but they have recruited well. think Tigers have done some decent business too.

5 South Africans replacing 3 x New Zealanders, 1 x Tongan, 1 x Australian, 2 x Welshies, 1 x Scotlander

if they are non EQP does it matter that they are all from the same place?

Lions can definitely feel aggrieved, I get that part certainly. Or is it the coach and his son that makes you think there is too much of a tilt?

My position is the less non EQP in the Premiership the better. Its just that. With Ackerman as coach it was probably inevitable he would bring in players he knows and trusts.

Have to disagree with that.

My argument pretty much goes along the line of:

If everyone was fit, and players distributed reasonably evenly, then the 24th best loosehead in England would be getting regular gametime. That offers no benefit to the England squad, and no benefit to his opposition. Considering everyone is rarely fit, on top of which some clubs would have 3 looseheads better than the 2nd choice for the likes of Bristol (probably), then we're looking much further down the ladder.

I'd much rather we bring in quality overseas players to improve the quality of the premiership, and therefore drive standards of the EQP within it.

I would like to see some sort of minimum wage for overseas players, to try and ensure journeymen like Brendan Macken (to use a Wasps example), don't simply fill up a squad spot that probably could have gone to a decent English equivalent.

[fivepointer]

5 South Africans replacing 3 x New Zealanders, 1 x Tongan, 1 x Australian, 2 x Welshies, 1 x Scotlander

if they are non EQP does it matter that they are all from the same place?

Lions can definitely feel aggrieved, I get that part certainly. Or is it the coach and his son that makes you think there is too much of a tilt?

My position is the less non EQP in the Premiership the better. Its just that. With Ackerman as coach it was probably inevitable he would bring in players he knows and trusts.

Have to disagree with that.

My argument pretty much goes along the line of:

If everyone was fit, and players distributed reasonably evenly, then the 24th best loosehead in England would be getting regular gametime. That offers no benefit to the England squad, and no benefit to his opposition. Considering everyone is rarely fit, on top of which some clubs would have 3 looseheads better than the 2nd choice for the likes of Bristol (probably), then we're looking much further down the ladder.

I'd much rather we bring in quality overseas players to improve the quality of the premiership, and therefore drive standards of the EQP within it.

I would like to see some sort of minimum wage for overseas players, to try and ensure journeymen like Brendan Macken (to use a Wasps example), don't simply fill up a squad spot that probably could have gone to a decent English equivalent.

So you think that we shouldnt try and reduce the number of non EQP in the Premiership?

What do you consider the ideal balance? For me, it would be in the region of 80/20 in favour of EQP - not just in the main squad but in matchday squads too. I've no problem with a few high quality non EQps but its about balance.

has the high number of imports improved the premiership? I'm not convinced it has, it hasnt made our teams better in Europe and it certainly hasnt led to the development of many truly top level international players.

[Tigersman]

Tough one.
Whilst they get alot of grief the Non-EQP journeymen do play a big part for a lot of clubs.
Like who would've Wasps promoted instead of Macken? Do they have a 12/13 coming up?
The EQP-talent is spread too much we have what 13 prem tier teams, Ireland, Wales and Scotland have less combined, their just isn't the talent to do something like have a minimum wage for non-EQP especially when half the clubs are in financial uncertainty.

Maybe with a 10 team ring fenced league it could work.

[Raggs]

Well we've replaced Macken with an eqp championship player, and Armitage really wasn't any worse than Macken in his few run outs, so he could have been used ahead of him. Not worth looking at Wasps academy yet, maybe in a few seasons, but most other clubs should be in a better position with their academies.

I agree that EQP is very spread, but think that poor non-eqp players aren't really much better than the top talent in the championship (Hurrell for instance), so would like to see a limit on those overseas players who aren't pushing the prem forwards.

[Tigersman]

Yeh but neither are going to be anywhere near a England squad and are really just causing a similar problem to what Macken was doing,
Is a Late 20's EQP journeyman really any better to have from a England POV than a Foreign journeyman of a similar standing?

I guess is the point of the prem to be all English, be the best domestic league or too make sure young England players can play and develop for the national team.

[Raggs]

It would force an opening somewhere for a young guy, at some level.

[Timbo]

We’ll have to see which way things develop in the future, but for me it’s a complete misnomer that quality young English players struggle for game time in the Prem. Absolutely loads of quality young players in match days squads week after week last season.

There were stats during the JWC that young English players are getting more minutes in their domestic league than Irish and Scottish counterparts. There is a middle tier of quality that possibly get neglected due to foreign players, but can’t see how that has much relevance in terms of quality of the league or national team.

[Mellsblue]

There were stats during the JWC that young English players are getting more minutes in their domestic league than Irish and Scottish counterparts.

Take out Smith and Curry and that stat doesn’t look quite so rosey.

[fivepointer]

Most of the squad had none or very little Premiership experience. Some would have featured in AWC games and the A league but outside of Smith and Curry very few had much exposure.
Looking at the u20s from a year ago, its really only been Mercer who has played much with Evans and Malins getting the odd game.

[Scrumhead]

True, but then age grade representation isn’t necessarily the only indicator. Neither of the Simmonds brothers did much for England at U20 or U18 level but both featured in most of Exeter’s match day squads last season for example. Underhill kind of skipped a level and then there are others players like Shillcock at who didn’t really have much involvement with the U20s but has at Worcester.

Not every year brings a vintage crop and certain positions take longer to break through in.

On average, I’d say it takes 2+ years to properly break in to first team squads in the Premiership.

Looking back at the 2016 winners, the squad for the final was:

1. Lewis Boyce
2. Jack Singleton
3. Billy Walker
4. Stan South
5. Huw Taylor
6. George Nott
7. Will Evans
8. Callum Chick
9. Max Green
10. Harry Mallinder
11. Matt Gallagher
12. Johnny Williams
13. Joe Marchant
14. Sam Aspland-Robinson
15. Max Malins

16. Charlie Piper
17. Tom West
18. Will Stuart
19. Andrew Kitchener
20. Jack Willis
21. Harry Randall
22. Max Wright
23. Ollie Thorley

Only Mallinder, Marchant, Singleton and Willis have much meaningful Premiership experience. Boyce, Thorley, South, Evans, Chick and Williams have had some, but under 10 Premiership games in most cases. Thorley and Williams probably would have had more but for injury.

0 test caps there though which is striking considering the Irish team, we thumped that day had Stockdale and Ryan in it!

[Timbo]

Surely the only relevant point is that the appearances/minutes is still more than their peers (bar the French, weirdly). Did the Ire, Sco, SA, Oz, NZ teams have 2 players with the first team experience of Curry and Smith? Obviously not.

Not sure how it compares to other countries, but off the top of my head there are loads of U20 graduates from recent years that feature pretty regularly in the Prem. Singleton, Isiekwe, Curryx2, Callum Chick, Mercer, Brophy-Clews, Cokanasiga, Shillcock, Mallinder, Marchant, Johnny Williams, Jack Willis...

Then a handful who’ve had on/off appearances, like Will Evans, Nott, Boyce, Maunder and others.

Can’t be many countries that can match that over the last 2/3 seasons, surely?

[Puja]

There were stats during the JWC that young English players are getting more minutes in their domestic league than Irish and Scottish counterparts.

Take out Smith and Curry and that stat doesn’t look quite so rosey.

And add in Isiekwe and TCurry (and Earl to a lesser extent) and it gets rosier again. And just looking back at the 2016 and 2017 squads, we've got the likes of Singleton, Boyce, Willis, Mercer, Chick, Mallinder, Marchant, Brophy-Clews, Thorley, and Cokanasiga who got regular game time last year (and Aspland-Robinson and Williams expecting their summer moves to result in more game time).

Puja