2019 World Cup Squad - Contenders

[Mikey Brown]

Well yeah. He’s a Kiwi. If only he had a league background we’d probably make him captain.

[Scrumhead]

Although I don’t know if rating the captain of one of the most successful teams in the SH over a player who has only really shone at domestic level should be regarded as ‘ridiculous’ mind ...

[morepork]

What, so every other No.6 in England has been struck down by scurvy then?

[fivepointer]

Shields is a contender. He wouldnt have played in SA if Eddie wasnt seriously interested in him.
I'm not convinced he's better than some other players but for now the coach likes him and that is all thats going to matter.

[Scrumhead]

What, so every other No.6 in England has been struck down by scurvy then?

Robshaw is trusted but ageing. Armand doesn’t seem to be well regarded and is largely ignored. Wilson seems to be somewhere in between ... he always does well when he’s given a chance, gets praised and then gets dropped from the squad altogether so Eddie can pick a lock at 6. Very odd.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see Michael Rhodes called up now he’s eligible. That would be considerably more contentious than Shields who at least has a genuine claim to Englishness through his parents.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Jono Ross either ...

[Mellsblue]

Heady days. Fark me.

[Tigersman]

Why is Sheilds still a thing?
He's been capped now/

Armand didn't exactly shone in the International games he did feature and IMO I think he is pretty overrated Not every player who plays well at club level transfers that to international level.

[Scrumhead]

It’s only ‘a thing’ until Michael Rhodes gets called up.

[Oakboy]

Why is Sheilds still a thing?
He's been capped now/

Armand didn't exactly shone in the International games he did feature and IMO I think he is pretty overrated Not every player who plays well at club level transfers that to international level.

The only way to be certain that Armand is not up to international rugby would be if Baxter got the England job and did not pick him. I find it strange that he is always the first choice for Exeter ahead of Kvesic and Simmonds both of whom have their advocates. Also, I have never seen him look inadequate up against opposition backrowers who are selected. Jones doesn't rate him so he doesn't get in. That's that.

[Stom]

Why is Sheilds still a thing?
He's been capped now/

Armand didn't exactly shone in the International games he did feature and IMO I think he is pretty overrated Not every player who plays well at club level transfers that to international level.

The only way to be certain that Armand is not up to international rugby would be if Baxter got the England job and did not pick him. I find it strange that he is always the first choice for Exeter ahead of Kvesic and Simmonds both of whom have their advocates. Also, I have never seen him look inadequate up against opposition backrowers who are selected. Jones doesn't rate him so he doesn't get in. That's that.

He's not really first choice AHEAD of Simmonds, though, is he...He's first choice alongside Simmonds.

[Oakboy]

Why is Sheilds still a thing?
He's been capped now/

Armand didn't exactly shone in the International games he did feature and IMO I think he is pretty overrated Not every player who plays well at club level transfers that to international level.

The only way to be certain that Armand is not up to international rugby would be if Baxter got the England job and did not pick him. I find it strange that he is always the first choice for Exeter ahead of Kvesic and Simmonds both of whom have their advocates. Also, I have never seen him look inadequate up against opposition backrowers who are selected. Jones doesn't rate him so he doesn't get in. That's that.

He's not really first choice AHEAD of Simmonds, though, is he...He's first choice alongside Simmonds.

Point well made. Let's say that in the Exeter priority asessment they are equal and ahead of Kvesic etc.

[Raggs]

Jones has also been in camp with Armand a few times now. Think I'll do a head to head ruck marks between shields and armand in the next wasps Exeter game though it's tough with the contrasting styles off play.

Why is Armand not being English at all a non issue for so many who often seem to raise it elsewhere?

[Puja]

Jones has also been in camp with Armand a few times now. Think I'll do a head to head ruck marks between shields and armand in the next wasps Exeter game though it's tough with the contrasting styles off play.

Why is Armand not being English at all a non issue for so many who often seem to raise it elsewhere?

I would say Zimbabweans forced from their country are a different kettle of fish. Plus he's lived here for a long time and would seem fairly well assimilated.

Puja

[Raggs]

I understand that Zimbabweans are a special case, but it's not like Ewers who came over as a kid. He was already playing in South Africa.

[Timbo]

Why is Sheilds still a thing?
He's been capped now/

Armand didn't exactly shone in the International games he did feature and IMO I think he is pretty overrated Not every player who plays well at club level transfers that to international level.

Hang on, how many minutes has he actually had at international level? Wasn’t it like, 2 minutes against Argentina and 10 against Ireland? Seems unduly harsh to make any sort of judgement from that.

I actually agree that he’s a little overrated now. I think people project on to him the player they want him to be, rather the player he really is. Certainly I believe Michael Rhodes and Jono Ross are better players and better bets for international rugby. That said, if Armand had an extended run for England I don’t think he’d do badly at all.

[Scrumhead]

Yeah - I agree. It’s very harsh to judge his suitability for test rugby based upon the opportunities he’s been given.

I’m a fan of Armand (although I prefer Wilson) and I think he’s been harshly treated. I just disagreed with Oakboy’s comment that it was ‘ridiculous’ to pick Shields ahead of him. Controversial, certainly. Unfair, possibly. Ridiculous, definitely not.

[Timbo]

I prefer Mark Wilson too.

[Puja]

Why is Sheilds still a thing?
He's been capped now/

Armand didn't exactly shone in the International games he did feature and IMO I think he is pretty overrated Not every player who plays well at club level transfers that to international level.

Hang on, how many minutes has he actually had at international level? Wasn’t it like, 2 minutes against Argentina and 10 against Ireland? Seems unduly harsh to make any sort of judgement from that.

I actually agree that he’s a little overrated now. I think people project on to him the player they want him to be, rather the player he really is. Certainly I believe Michael Rhodes and Jono Ross are better players and better bets for international rugby. That said, if Armand had an extended run for England I don’t think he’d do badly at all.

I don't get the Michael Rhodes thing. He's been injured for a long time, so he's got no form to speak of, and before that he was hardly the dominant back row in the AP. He's akin to Jackson Wray in my book, a perfectly solid Prem player, works well for Sarries, but lacking anything outstanding in any particular area and frankly ludicrous to even have him in the conversation for an England shirt.

Puja

[Timbo]

Why is Sheilds still a thing?
He's been capped now/

Armand didn't exactly shone in the International games he did feature and IMO I think he is pretty overrated Not every player who plays well at club level transfers that to international level.

Hang on, how many minutes has he actually had at international level? Wasn’t it like, 2 minutes against Argentina and 10 against Ireland? Seems unduly harsh to make any sort of judgement from that.

I actually agree that he’s a little overrated now. I think people project on to him the player they want him to be, rather the player he really is. Certainly I believe Michael Rhodes and Jono Ross are better players and better bets for international rugby. That said, if Armand had an extended run for England I don’t think he’d do badly at all.

I don't get the Michael Rhodes thing. He's been injured for a long time, so he's got no form to speak of, and before that he was hardly the dominant back row in the AP. He's akin to Jackson Wray in my book, a perfectly solid Prem player, works well for Sarries, but lacking anything outstanding in any particular area and frankly ludicrous to even have him in the conversation for an England shirt.

Puja

Before his injury troubles last season I had him as probably the best 6 in European club rugby for 2 seasons.

As an archetypal, very physical, hard working, lineout 6 then he ticks the boxes for me. He’s always a standout when I watch Saracens, in a way that a player like Jackson Wray, good as he is, never has been.

[Puja]

Before his injury troubles last season I had him as probably the best 6 in European club rugby for 2 seasons.

As an archetypal, very physical, hard working, lineout 6 then he ticks the boxes for me. He’s always a standout when I watch Saracens, in a way that a player like Jackson Wray, good as he is, never has been.

See, that first sentence makes me feel like we've watched entirely different players. I've never seen him as a dominant part of the Saracens pack - he's a good cog in the clockwork, but he's not an Itoje or a Mako that drives the Sarries pack performance with consistent excellence.

Will have to watch him again this season to try and see what you do.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

I’m more or less with Timbo. For a while, Rhodes was a stand out player for Sarries. However, whether he can get back to that level is a separate question given he’s had some pretty significant injuries over the past 18 months or so.

For all my resistance to ‘project players’ and the like, I do feel like we’re lacking a nasty, hard bastard in our pack and Rhodes and Ross both tick that box in a very typically South African way which I think will appeal to Eddie.

I’d far sooner pick other players with greater actual ties to England (I’m including Shields in that) but I can see the attraction of players with a bit more edge.

[Oakboy]

Funnily enough, I agree with both sides of the debate over these players. As ever, though, there is a difference between commenting on 'who I think Jones will pick' and 'who I'd pick'.

I think Armand/Shields are examples of Jones's stubborn prejudices and I don't agree with him. But then, there is consistency. I don't agree with him about a fair bit. Daly at FB, Farrell at 12, Youngs at 9, Francis anywhere etc. etc.

As I've said so often, Jones either wins or he's sweet FA. I doubt rugby historians will look back on his regime with any sort of praise.

[Scrumhead]

I think it’s too early to talk about how a ‘regime’ will be remembered until it’s over. At this point in time, it would be extremely harsh not to award any ‘praise’ for the unbeaten spell, Grandslam and 6N win. However, very much depends upon what happens next.

The AIs are a bit of a watershed moment IMO. If we do badly (which is very possible given the opposition), the knives will be well and truly out. If we do well, we’re back on track and the first half of 2018 will be regarded as an ugly blip.

[Oakboy]

Fair comment. I was suggesting that IF he does not win the RWC Jones will attract few positive reviews for what he has done for English rugby. As a 'knife wielder', I'd be inclined to condemn him for being exactly what was expected, an Australian coach with a lot of international experience. He is alright to listen to when he is winning and a bit boorish when he is not.

Ultimately, what matters is whether he has maximised the potential of this group of players. So far, I'd say he has not but I don't rate them as capable of winning the RWC even if they were better coached. That's where Jones has set himself up to be shot down, IMO. SF defeat would be par but I'd begrudge him praise for it because I've simply come to dislike him and his approach.

[Which Tyler]

If Eddie were fired today, history would still record him as having the best win:loss ratio of any England coach.
Ultimately, history records coaches by that ratio, trophies, and winning streaks. He's already up there with only SCW ahead of him.