England vs South Africa

[Digby]

Could have been given, but they were also on a par with others let go. I've no idea if our development would have been better for a loss or win yesterday, and it wasn’t a fun way to win, indeed it feels more like a loss watching that game

[Which Tyler]

I gotta say, for me, the most important change that simply has to be made is for Stuart Barnes to retire.
Otherwise, both Slade and Te'o were poor, although it was also Slade's best game for England.

Elsewhere, Shields should be a bench option at best for now, Wilson at 6, Mercer at 8 (surprised how well he stood up on debut), with either Curry or Underhill at 7 (assuming Morgan's mistake was something that can't be corrected in 1 week).
Tight 5 is what it is with the absentees we have there.
We really, REALLY need a genuine option at 9; preferably 2-3 of them, neither Young's nor Care are up to it at this level as anything other than a one-off performance.

Quite honestly though, that was South Africa's match, it was only really their mistakes that kept us in it at all for the first 50 minutes or so.

[Mellsblue]

I blame the Russians.

[Mellsblue]

Stephen Jones/Sunday Times ratings:

Daly - 6
Nowell - 7
Slade - 7
Te’o - 5
May - 7
Farrell - 6
‘Self-belief kept England going when nobody seemed to believe. Probably now a fixture at fly-half. ‘
Yet another sentence about his intangible qualities and then a sentence that doesn’t tally with a score of 6.
Youngs - 6

Hepburn - 5
Hartley - 5
Sinckler- 6
Itoje - 6
Kruis - 7
Shields - 5
Curry - 5
Wilson - 8

[Digby]

I had Kruis slightly ahead of Wilson as our best forward and indeed player, though Wilson was having to live with his flankers coming off 2nd best in contact

[Oakboy]

We really, REALLY need a genuine option at 9; preferably 2-3 of them, neither Young's nor Care are up to it at this level as anything other than a one-off.

Indeed. Any criticism of the other backs has to take that into account. Youngs kicked so much ball away in the 1st half that it was sickening. It would be interesting to know how many times he passed to Farrell compared with the 9/10 international average. So much kicking by the 9 must be coaching policy and it indicates a lack of faith in basic rugby ability.

[Oakboy]

I had Kruis slightly ahead of Wilson as our best forward and indeed player, though Wilson was having to live with his flankers coming off 2nd best in contact

Arguably, Itoje was the only forward below his best?

[Mellsblue]

We really, REALLY need a genuine option at 9; preferably 2-3 of them, neither Young's nor Care are up to it at this level as anything other than a one-off.

Indeed. Any criticism of the other backs has to take that into account. Youngs kicked so much ball away in the 1st half that it was sickening. It would be interesting to know how many times he passed to Farrell compared with the 9/10 international average. So much kicking by the 9 must be coaching policy and it indicates a lack of faith in basic rugby ability.

Farrell will be used to it with Sarries, if with a high quality of kick from the Wiggler.

[Beasties]

Kicking as a policy whether from 9 or 10 I can just about understand but continually hoofing the leather off it when we turn them over and they're in disarray is unforgivable.

Itoje was a shadow of his former self yest. No doubt he'll be rewarded with playing at 6 next week with Lawes back and Wilson dropped for Shields to shuffle across.

[Scrumhead]

We really, REALLY need a genuine option at 9; preferably 2-3 of them, neither Young's nor Care are up to it at this level as anything other than a one-off.

Indeed. Any criticism of the other backs has to take that into account. Youngs kicked so much ball away in the 1st half that it was sickening. It would be interesting to know how many times he passed to Farrell compared with the 9/10 international average. So much kicking by the 9 must be coaching policy and it indicates a lack of faith in basic rugby ability.

We know that Eddie doesn’t back our players to execute anything but the most basic of plays.

The thing is, even when Youngs did pass, Farrell either kicked it away or passed it to someone miles behind the gain line.

On our ‘attacks’, it felt like we put in a couple of laboured passes and just about got to the gain line bu the time it had reached Slade (who then had no time to do anything with it). Infuriating.

[Puja]

Stephen Jones/Sunday Times ratings:

Daly - 6
Nowell - 7
Slade - 7
Te’o - 5
May - 7
Farrell - 6
Youngs - 6

Hepburn - 5
Hartley - 5
Sinckler- 6
Itoje - 6
Kruis - 7
Shields - 5
Curry - 5
Wilson - 8

That... doesn't look drastically wrong. Has anyone checked to see if Jones is okay?

Puja

[Which Tyler]

We know that Eddie doesn’t back our players to execute anything but the most basic of plays.

The thing is, even when Youngs did pass, Farrell either kicked it away or passed it to someone miles behind the gain line.

On our ‘attacks’, it felt like we put in a couple of laboured passes and just about got to the gain line bu the time it had reached Slade (who then had no time to do anything with it). Infuriating.

Most infuriating for me, was the regularity with which Farrel passed to where the player was stood, not to where they would be by the time the ball arrived.
I don't recall a single pass from Faz that didn't stop the receiver in his tracks; and when you couple that with choosing the player 5m behind the gainline (and doing it so frequently, that the dummy runners didn't interest anyone at all), that we just kept hearing backwards every time we did opt to try something other than kicking.

Overall, I preferred the tactic of kicking it, for both Young's and Farrel, because the alternative is just so much worse.

[Crocked8]

As always the Hask puts it best:

Is he a bit tipsy?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mellsblue]

Stephen Jones/Sunday Times ratings:

Daly - 6
Nowell - 7
Slade - 7
Te’o - 5
May - 7
Farrell - 6
Youngs - 6

Hepburn - 5
Hartley - 5
Sinckler- 6
Itoje - 6
Kruis - 7
Shields - 5
Curry - 5
Wilson - 8

That... doesn't look drastically wrong. Has anyone checked to see if Jones is okay?

Puja

I thought the same. Though, he did give Atwood 10/10 for the way he watched the game from home.

[Crocked8]

Stephen Jones/Sunday Times ratings:

Daly - 6
Nowell - 7
Slade - 7
Te’o - 5
May - 7
Farrell - 6
Youngs - 6

Hepburn - 5
Hartley - 5
Sinckler- 6
Itoje - 6
Kruis - 7
Shields - 5
Curry - 5
Wilson - 8

That... doesn't look drastically wrong. Has anyone checked to see if Jones is okay?

Puja

He blocked me on Twitter for saying that I disagreed with his rating of Kruis. I thought he was mom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mellsblue]

As always the Hask puts it best:

Is he a bit tipsy?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

‘A bit tipsy’ seems lenient!!

[Scrumhead]

Stephen Jones/Sunday Times ratings:

Daly - 6
Nowell - 7
Slade - 7
Te’o - 5
May - 7
Farrell - 6
Youngs - 6

Hepburn - 5
Hartley - 5
Sinckler- 6
Itoje - 6
Kruis - 7
Shields - 5
Curry - 5
Wilson - 8

That... doesn't look drastically wrong. Has anyone checked to see if Jones is okay?

Puja

He blocked me on Twitter for saying that I disagreed with his rating of Kruis. I thought he was mom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah - he does that if you disagree with him ...

[Oakboy]

Stephen Jones/Sunday Times ratings:

Daly - 6
Nowell - 7
Slade - 7
Te’o - 5
May - 7
Farrell - 6
Youngs - 6

Hepburn - 5
Hartley - 5
Sinckler- 6
Itoje - 6
Kruis - 7
Shields - 5
Curry - 5
Wilson - 8

That... doesn't look drastically wrong. Has anyone checked to see if Jones is okay?

Puja

Agreed, in terms of relativity. Maybe, all the scores could be reduced by one. As it stands, the average is 6 whereas I'd say the overall team performance was 5 for the 80 minutes.

[Digby]

I had Kruis slightly ahead of Wilson as our best forward and indeed player, though Wilson was having to live with his flankers coming off 2nd best in contact

Arguably, Itoje was the only forward below his best?

Hepburn can surely do better, though Hartley was perhaps up to his potential, definitely more to come from Itoje, I've no idea what Shield's potential is but it is hopefully higher than yesterdayto have so interested Eddie, and I like Curry and I liked he was looking to slow ball but his tackles need to stick, he's a flanker not a pinball wizard, and Wilson did okay whilst not excelling, I'd also want more from Kruis even if he was our MoM

[Mush]

Most infuriating for me, was the regularity with which Farrel passed to where the player was stood, not to where they would be by the time the ball arrived.
I don't recall a single pass from Faz that didn't stop the receiver in his tracks; and when you couple that with choosing the player 5m behind the gainline (and doing it so frequently, that the dummy runners didn't interest anyone at all), that we just kept hearing backwards every time we did opt to try something other than kicking..

Agreed and even worse was the consistency of taking the wrong option between flat pass and pull back.

[Mush]

Stephen Jones/Sunday Times ratings:

Daly - 6
Nowell - 7
Slade - 7
Te’o - 5
May - 7
Farrell - 6
Youngs - 6

Hepburn - 5
Hartley - 5
Sinckler- 6
Itoje - 6
Kruis - 7
Shields - 5
Curry - 5
Wilson - 8

That... doesn't look drastically wrong. Has anyone checked to see if Jones is okay?

Puja

Agreed, in terms of relativity. Maybe, all the scores could be reduced by one. As it stands, the average is 6 whereas I'd say the overall team performance was 5 for the 80 minutes.

Yes indeed, perhaps reducing by 2 in some cases. Overall an average of 5 still seems a little generous.

[Oakboy]

I had Kruis slightly ahead of Wilson as our best forward and indeed player, though Wilson was having to live with his flankers coming off 2nd best in contact

Arguably, Itoje was the only forward below his best?

Hepburn can surely do better, though Hartley was perhaps up to his potential, definitely more to come from Itoje, I've no idea what Shield's potential is but it is hopefully higher than yesterdayto have so interested Eddie, and I like Curry and I liked he was looking to slow ball but his tackles need to stick, he's a flanker not a pinball wizard, and Wilson did okay whilst not excelling, I'd also want more from Kruis even if he was our MoM

I think Kruis is a 7/10 international at best so I can't see there's much more to come, if any. Theoretically, he might appear to be better if he can get more out of Itoje. I'd pick neither if Lawes and Launchbury were fit.

As for Shields, his performance did not surprise me. Applying the old adage of picking who the opposition would like to face least, I bet SA were delighted he was in and not Rhodes. I would not have either in the squad but at least there's a bit of precision about Rhodes. He nails the ball and nails opponents in the tackle. Shields is just nebulous, charging around like an animated fart. He's always just off the pace somehow. My old coach used to say 'rugby is about putting your body in the right place at the right time'. Shields just doesn't.

Armand is simply a far better player. Jones not recognising it is consistent with his selection of the starting/finishing props the wrong way round. Top club coaches do things for a reason over multiple seasons-long trial periods. Jones dismissing that based on a few days in a training camp just sums up the guy, for me. IMO, he is not maximising his resources, the first requirement of management. It's the sort of twisted thinking that will disillusion the players eventually. I thought Jones got the players up for the match (or perhaps it was Mitchell?) but I'm not sure all are convinced by him.

[Renniks]

Marchant called up
No other additions (including no-one to cover Morgan's injury or Curry's potential injury - which is still to be assessed, so maybe not a complete write off)

[Scrumhead]

Marchant deserves a look-in and I’d be happy to see him get a shot against Wales, but I can’t see him coming in to the mix against NZ, so it seems like a strange call-up considering the injuries are in the back row.

Unless we’re just leaving Tuilagi’s withdrawal until the last minute again.

[Timbo]

We really, REALLY need a genuine option at 9; preferably 2-3 of them, neither Young's nor Care are up to it at this level as anything other than a one-off.

Indeed. Any criticism of the other backs has to take that into account. Youngs kicked so much ball away in the 1st half that it was sickening. It would be interesting to know how many times he passed to Farrell compared with the 9/10 international average. So much kicking by the 9 must be coaching policy and it indicates a lack of faith in basic rugby ability.

I think it indicates an acknowledgement of the fact that our pack were obviously underpowered when compared to the Boks. I could have told you a week ago we were gonna kick the leather off it.

Don’t really know what you want 9 and 10 to do when your forward runners keep getting knocked backwards and then it takes an age to move the bigger SA bodies out of the ruck. Going backwards and slow ball, would require magicians at 9/10 to get the backline firing.