England v NZ - ratings

[Mellsblue]

Just for the lols, here is Stephen Jones’s effort:

England

Elliot Daly 6/10
Wasps
Caps 23 Age 26 Ht 1.84m Wt 94kg
Had to play conservatively in the conditions but suspicions remains that he does more damage at outside-centre

Chris Ashton 6/10
Sale Sharks
Caps 41 Age 31 Ht 1.80m Wt 92kg
What a comeback. A try after two minutes, and we can expect Ashton to improve as the games go by

Henry Slade 7/10
Exeter Chiefs
Caps 15 Age 25 Ht 1.88m Wt 87kg
Had done well this Autumn to date, his kicking game is useful though the full midfield make up is still to be decided

Ben Te’0 7/10
Worcester
Caps 15 Age 31 Ht 1.88m Wt 104kg
Came on well from last week, hit hard in defence and showed signs of establishing more of an understanding with Farrell


Jonny May 7/10
Leicester Tigers
Caps 39 Age 28 Ht 1.88m Wt 90kg
Was well-marked but still managed to escape on occasions, commendable efforts to stay involved in the wet and wind

Owen Farrell 7/10
Saracens
Caps 63 Age 27 Ht 1.88m Wt 92kg
Momentum suffered because of an error at the restart but England’s redoubtable backline leader was again strong

Ben Youngs 7/10
Leicester Tigers
Caps 79 Age 29 Ht 1.78m Wt 92kg
Fantastic appetite for the contest, tended to kick long but showed genuine signs of his true form

Ben Moon 7/10
Exeter Chiefs
Caps 2 Age 29 Ht 1.80m Wt 110kg
Solid at the ruck, his late arrival in the international area has been a front-row revelation, part of the better scrum

Dylan Hartley 7/10
Northampton Saints
Caps 95 Age 32 Ht 1.85m Wt 108kg
A fine half of play before his hand injury forced him out, and in the second half England missed his throwing to the lineout

Kyle Sinckler 7/10
Harlequins
Caps 15 Age 25 Ht 1.83m Wt 113kg
Terrific first-half, still improving and with the capacity to become a player of true world-class if he sticks to it

Maro Itoje 9/10
Saracens
Caps 24 Age 24 Ht 1.95m Wt 115kg
Man of the match by a distance, no fear whatsoever of the All Blacks and continued on his Lions form all day

George Kruis 6/10
Saracens
Caps 27 Age 28 Ht 1.98m Wt 113kg
England’s lineout was not at its best, lost some key balls in the second half as some of the momentum was lost

Brad Shields 6/10
Wasps
Caps 3 Age 27 Ht 1.93m Wt 112kg
Performance was easily his best for England through still somewhat ponderous, must be a temptation to start Courtney Lawes

Sam Underhill 8/10
Bath
Caps 7 Age 22 Ht 1.86m Wt 103kg
Giant stride forward as he was excellent in the first half and competitive throughout. His career had slowed, so this was ideal

Mark Wilson 6/10
Falcons
Caps 6 Age 29 Ht 1.88m Wt 107kg
Another effective game, though England do miss their injured carriers as Wilson is a different type of player

[Insouciant]

Farrell 7? He missed more tackles than that FFS.

Speaking of 7, I do feel more confident about that shirt with Curry and Underhill in the vicinity of it.

[Mellsblue]

Yep. Underhill was immense today. Missed the tackle on Crotty that lead to NZ’s try, though.....I think.

[padprop]

Don’t really see what you could be upset about apart from Maro, Farrell and slide being maybe 1 rating too high. One of Jones’s Better outings.
It takes every player to be on the 6-8 bracket at least to get within one point of New Zealand, or at least the team we had out, who a lot of them played above their recent form.

[16th man]

Hang on, he's dinging Kruis for the lost lineouts that George under threw to Itoje?

Edit: Oh and you can take at least one point off Shields and give it to Wilson as he was doing a chunk of the 6 work as well as playing 8.

[Mikey Brown]

Can somebody explain to me what “showed genuine signs of his true form” means?

That’s not even a dig at Youngs. He started very well, but did eventually revert to the usual drivel.

[Stom]

Can somebody explain to me what “showed genuine signs of his true form” means?

That’s not even a dig at Youngs. He started very well, but did eventually revert to the usual drivel.

Well, yeah. He did show those signs of reverting to the usual drivel.

[morepork]

Surely it would be easier for the pundits to just put No.6 on every players shirt?

Hard luck by the way. Good to see some dog wake up for England but by Christ I don’t envy your having to rely on a monsoon to accommodate your fly half. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. Owen Farrell- the great denominator (TM).

[Danno]

I don’t envy your having to rely on a monsoon to accommodate your fly half. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. Owen Farrell- the great denominator (TM).

I'm putting this on the back of my England shirt

[Stom]

Was watching the bits I missed and I didn't realise just how bad Farrell was... It wasn't just the missed tackle, he was at fault for what would have been a try if Savea had kept hold of the ball, too. Among a lot else. And everything good we did played off 9.

Which begs the question why Youngs ahead of Care? The latter is much better - and has much more experience - leading the attack.

[Raggs]

If Ford was 9 successful tackles, and 11 missed, and had Farrell's kicking percentage for the last 2 games, do we reckon he'd be given a 7/10?

[fivepointer]

"England’s redoubtable backline leader was again strong"

Missing 11 tackles - yes 11 according to ESPN.

Mind you, he wasnt alone in missing tackles. I thought we defended pretty well but even our best defenders - Itoje, Underhill and Wilson - missed some.
Its also clear our centres arent getting involved in attack anything like what you would want. Te'o had 4 touches, Slade 6. Ashton scored a nice try and had the ball precisely 3 times.

[Mellsblue]

Reading Barnes’s and Dallaglio’s columns in the times (I can’t bring myself to read Jones’s) you’d assume he had played at least an 8/10. I just don’t get it.

[Stom]

"England’s redoubtable backline leader was again strong"

Missing 11 tackles - yes 11 according to ESPN.

Mind you, he wasnt alone in missing tackles. I thought we defended pretty well but even our best defenders - Itoje, Underhill and Wilson - missed some.
Its also clear our centres arent getting involved in attack anything like what you would want. Te'o had 4 touches, Slade 6. Ashton scored a nice try and had the ball precisely 3 times.

I'd be interested to see the stats for how many times Farrell passed to them...

[bitts]

Just for the lols, here is Stephen Jones’s effort:

England

Elliot Daly 6/10
Wasps
Caps 23 Age 26 Ht 1.84m Wt 94kg
Had to play conservatively in the conditions but suspicions remains that he does more damage at outside-centre

Chris Ashton 6/10
Sale Sharks
Caps 41 Age 31 Ht 1.80m Wt 92kg
What a comeback. A try after two minutes, and we can expect Ashton to improve as the games go by

Henry Slade 7/10
Exeter Chiefs
Caps 15 Age 25 Ht 1.88m Wt 87kg
Had done well this Autumn to date, his kicking game is useful though the full midfield make up is still to be decided

Ben Te’0 7/10
Worcester
Caps 15 Age 31 Ht 1.88m Wt 104kg
Came on well from last week, hit hard in defence and showed signs of establishing more of an understanding with Farrell


Jonny May 7/10
Leicester Tigers
Caps 39 Age 28 Ht 1.88m Wt 90kg
Was well-marked but still managed to escape on occasions, commendable efforts to stay involved in the wet and wind

Owen Farrell 7/10
Saracens
Caps 63 Age 27 Ht 1.88m Wt 92kg
Momentum suffered because of an error at the restart but England’s redoubtable backline leader was again strong

Ben Youngs 7/10
Leicester Tigers
Caps 79 Age 29 Ht 1.78m Wt 92kg
Fantastic appetite for the contest, tended to kick long but showed genuine signs of his true form

Ben Moon 7/10
Exeter Chiefs
Caps 2 Age 29 Ht 1.80m Wt 110kg
Solid at the ruck, his late arrival in the international area has been a front-row revelation, part of the better scrum

Dylan Hartley 7/10
Northampton Saints
Caps 95 Age 32 Ht 1.85m Wt 108kg
A fine half of play before his hand injury forced him out, and in the second half England missed his throwing to the lineout

Kyle Sinckler 7/10
Harlequins
Caps 15 Age 25 Ht 1.83m Wt 113kg
Terrific first-half, still improving and with the capacity to become a player of true world-class if he sticks to it

Maro Itoje 9/10
Saracens
Caps 24 Age 24 Ht 1.95m Wt 115kg
Man of the match by a distance, no fear whatsoever of the All Blacks and continued on his Lions form all day

George Kruis 6/10
Saracens
Caps 27 Age 28 Ht 1.98m Wt 113kg
England’s lineout was not at its best, lost some key balls in the second half as some of the momentum was lost

Brad Shields 6/10
Wasps
Caps 3 Age 27 Ht 1.93m Wt 112kg
Performance was easily his best for England through still somewhat ponderous, must be a temptation to start Courtney Lawes

Sam Underhill 8/10
Bath
Caps 7 Age 22 Ht 1.86m Wt 103kg
Giant stride forward as he was excellent in the first half and competitive throughout. His career had slowed, so this was ideal

Mark Wilson 6/10
Falcons
Caps 6 Age 29 Ht 1.88m Wt 107kg
Another effective game, though England do miss their injured carriers as Wilson is a different type of player

Why should we expect Ashton to improve as games go by? He barely improved beyond mediocre after his first forty caps, don't see why I should expect him to improve in his next 2.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Mellsblue]

Its also clear our centres arent getting involved in attack anything like what you would want. Te'o had 4 touches, Slade 6. Ashton scored a nice try and had the ball precisely 3 times.

I’m worried this is now our game plan. Sarries style - kick for territory, wear them down up front and be clinical when sheer weight of pressure creates gaps out wide. Nothing wrong with that, Sarries show it can work, but I don’t think our pack is good enough to be that dominant. It’s also not a game I’d like to watch us play.

[switchskier]

Its also clear our centres arent getting involved in attack anything like what you would want. Te'o had 4 touches, Slade 6. Ashton scored a nice try and had the ball precisely 3 times.

I’m worried this is now our game plan. Sarries style - kick for territory, wear them down up front and be clinical when sheer weight of pressure creates gaps out wide. Nothing wrong with that, Sarries show it can work, but I don’t think our pack is good enough to be that dominant. It’s also not a game I’d like to watch us play.

I think that is exactly the game plan and as a Scottish fan it is the one that has me worried. Your best players are in the second row, there is an endless supply of big powerful front row options and it minimises the weaknesses of the backrow. It's also a way that the key players in the side are comfortable and familiar with. If Engand's forwards play with the intensity that they did for that first 25 minutes and Mitchell gets a solid defensive system in place you will be a really tough team to beat.

[Beasties]

The trouble with that gameplan is that we don't actually raise our intensity against teams other than NZ. The one thing that struck me above all else yest was how up for it we were. I've not seen an Eng team as on it for a long long time.

[Renniks]

If that's our game plan…
Get defensive stalwarts at 12 and 15… (Barritt and Brown)
Pick players like Morgan or Armand when Billy / Hughes are out
Even pick Wigglesworth at 9

But we seem to be picking backs who have defensive frailties
And not having forwards that can ensure dominance in the carry


I'd rather see us play an Exeter style game… but I'm not sure that transfers to European level, let alone International

[Raggs]

Exeter get nullified when they meet a sarries like defence, let alone at higher intensity. I don't think it would transfer well as it relies more on great basics rather than really using the strengths of players well.

[Which Tyler]

The trouble with that gameplan is that we don't actually raise our intensity against teams other than NZ. The one thing that struck me above all else yest was how up for it we were. I've not seen an Eng team as on it for a long long time.

It certainly helps that we don't play them very often...

[Peat]

Its also clear our centres arent getting involved in attack anything like what you would want. Te'o had 4 touches, Slade 6. Ashton scored a nice try and had the ball precisely 3 times.

I’m worried this is now our game plan. Sarries style - kick for territory, wear them down up front and be clinical when sheer weight of pressure creates gaps out wide. Nothing wrong with that, Sarries show it can work, but I don’t think our pack is good enough to be that dominant. It’s also not a game I’d like to watch us play.

I thought that's been our game plan since Jones got here tbh. Easier to disguise it when the pack is being good enough I guess - that and the backs are being genuinely clinical.

I'm not hugely fond of it but I'm not sure what we've got that makes a different plan better. At least this has "be clinical when sheer weight of pressure creates gaps out wide" instead of "wear them down up front until the fatties rumble over".

[Mellsblue]

Its also clear our centres arent getting involved in attack anything like what you would want. Te'o had 4 touches, Slade 6. Ashton scored a nice try and had the ball precisely 3 times.

I’m worried this is now our game plan. Sarries style - kick for territory, wear them down up front and be clinical when sheer weight of pressure creates gaps out wide. Nothing wrong with that, Sarries show it can work, but I don’t think our pack is good enough to be that dominant. It’s also not a game I’d like to watch us play.

I thought that's been our game plan since Jones got here tbh. Easier to disguise it when the pack is being good enough I guess - that and the backs are being genuinely clinical.

I'm not hugely fond of it but I'm not sure what we've got that makes a different plan better. At least this has "be clinical when sheer weight of pressure creates gaps out wide" instead of "wear them down up front until the fatties rumble over".

With a Ford - Farrell combo there was at least a nod to getting it wide and there was intent shown to back that, not too often admittedly. There hasn’t even been a hint of getting Slade on the ball in space out wide from what I can remember.
I think Jones always wanted a more expansive game than what we’ve seen in the past couple of games. It now seems he’s given up on that completely.

[Peat]

I’m worried this is now our game plan. Sarries style - kick for territory, wear them down up front and be clinical when sheer weight of pressure creates gaps out wide. Nothing wrong with that, Sarries show it can work, but I don’t think our pack is good enough to be that dominant. It’s also not a game I’d like to watch us play.

I thought that's been our game plan since Jones got here tbh. Easier to disguise it when the pack is being good enough I guess - that and the backs are being genuinely clinical.

I'm not hugely fond of it but I'm not sure what we've got that makes a different plan better. At least this has "be clinical when sheer weight of pressure creates gaps out wide" instead of "wear them down up front until the fatties rumble over".

With a Ford - Farrell combo there was at least a nod to getting it wide and there was intent shown to back that, not too often admittedly. There hasn’t even been a hint of getting Slade on the ball in space out wide from what I can remember.
I think Jones always wanted a more expansive game than what we’ve seen in the past couple of games. It now seems he’s given up on that completely.

Can't argue with that. And you've hit it with the first few words. Ford has been the key to that nod at getting it wide, to that clinical attack and occasional bits of expansive play. Remove Ford and, well, behold.

So yeah. Maybe this means the plan has got even narrower. I don't like wishing injury on players, but my gods we'd be lucky to get that one particular one...

[Oakboy]

I don't like wishing injury on players, but my gods we'd be lucky to get that one particular one...

Or, play the bugger at FB.