Eng v Fra Match Thread

[Danno]

Farrell was very good under a game plan that suits his talents. I’d love it if we gave a running game more of a chance before kicking for territory but Farrell played this game plan very well. The wanking over his good bits and ignoring his poor bits still drives me mad, though.

Agree completely, but I often wondered what the ABs or even Aus would do given the chance to run the ball back all day. I suspect it results in a helluva lot more than 8 points. Intrigued to see what plan B is.

[Banquo]

Not sure what to say, we refused to play at pace, butchered loads of points, gave away daft points in defence and had some stupid ill discipline, and not many locks can be worse than Launchbury at restarts

Against which France left so much space to kick into it would have been rude not to, delighted for George, and we've won by 36

..or.....
the game plan was to control the pace; tick
we conceded far fewer penalties than for ages (4), and very few in dangerous places; tick
we gave away one daft try, small mercies; tick

Ashton butchered one try, actually two, but somehow we got a penalty try.....so he may get dropped; tick
Farrell generally did the right thing and showed good running lines; tick.

and

agreed on Launchbury, and we missed Itoje. France were there for the taking, and we took them without having to play too hard. Tuilagi and Billy survived two games, and did well generally. Wilson and Curry are excellent, and Lawes proved he is an excellent lock; props came on and did a number. George was very good, as was Kruis.

but....Daly is vulnerable if a star with the ball; Youngs service would shame an Italian flanker. LCD is a mixed blessing, and ushered Hartley back in. Too many tackles missed.

I get we controlled the pace, we did so last week too, but I would be happier if we also attempted and executed playing at pace when surely at some point we'd either want to or even need to

Essentially I'm admiring of their ability to stay with the plan, it's great discipline and work ethic, I'd just like another plan other than maybe seeing one against Italy

You did in fact posit we weren't very good playing at pace before the game; I'd agree we need it, and in fact see we nearly have the personnel to do it, but I'd see it evolving from this platform. Again, its miles better to add new stuff in from a winning platform, with stabilised combos......and he'd have to drop Youngs.

The box kicking is overdone, but can't yet argue on the return. You could also hypothesise that EJ isn't showing his whole hand as yet.

[Banquo]

Will it be Biggar though? He was pretty crap yesterday. Maybe we should hope it is!

He played pretty well first half, but was well dodgy for 10 minutes.......but I'd worry a lot more about him than Anscombe, especially if they decide to go aerial....he's the best kick (and) chaser in intl rugby imo, and he's terrific under the high ball in the backfield too. Bit static running the ball mind.

[Rich]

Just imagine how good you will be when Brad Shields comes back in.

Agreed, and don't forget Dylan Hartley.

[BenHK]

Couldn’t help but note that three Wasps came off the bench and then England won.

Fact.

Did we score any points after they came on though? Don’t think so.

Did we concede any points. Yup

Coincidence?

[I R Geech]

Couldn’t help but note that three Wasps came off the bench and then England won.

Fact.

Did we score any points after they came on though? Don’t think so.

Did we concede any points. Yup

Coincidence?

The sequence of events is incontrovertible.
Look, it’s all we’ve got to hold on to right now...

[Adam_P]

Which two locks our the best 2nd row with everyone fit? Thought Lawes was the best forward on the pitch yesterday, with both flankers also up there. Everyone seems to be saying we'll be strong when Itoje returns to the side, but I wouldn't swap Lawes for him.

[fivepointer]

Lawes was first rate yesterday and has been for England over the last couple of seasons. He's one of our 2 best locks. The other is Itoje.

[Oakboy]

Lawes was first rate yesterday and has been for England over the last couple of seasons. He's one of our 2 best locks. The other is Itoje.

Assuming that you are right (and on current form, I'd not argue) it is interesting that our two best locks are the ones who are also comfortable playing at 6. Pace, carrying ability, versatility and handling skills are needed more and more in every position including lock. Set-piece specialists have to be absolutely world-class to not edge towards being a liability (relatively).

[francoisfou]

Looking at that French side, there were only two players who shone in an embarassing defeat. Damien Penaud (although maybe he shouldn't have let Jonny May wriggle away for his second or third try) was a live wire and took his try well, as was replacement scrum half Antoine Dupont ( tis a shame he ain't English!!).
Next up for France are the Sweaties in Paris and nobody here would be the least bit surprised if they lost that too, and the Eyeties must be looking forward to playing the French in Rome in the last match.
Fat Basta had a poor game and should be axed permanently. It made me smile when he was sent backwards by Courtney Lawes (who incidentally is called "the Northampton butcher" over here!!)

[fivepointer]

I'd give Bamba a pass too. Did well for a youngster making his first start.
France have to invest in their young talent. Pick them and keep picking them. There are plenty of good players available. Its a crying shame to see talent being routinely misdirected.

[Puja]

Lawes was first rate yesterday and has been for England over the last couple of seasons. He's one of our 2 best locks. The other is Itoje.

I think Kruis deserves a little more credit for his past two games - his work rate and ruck work has been immense. On first watch, I thought Lawes was excellent, but Kruis was the glue that held it all together.

I'd be interested to see the ruck marks for him and Lawes and I can't help wondering if him going off was the instigator of our game getting scrappy.

Puja

[francoisfou]

I'd give Bamba a pass too. Did well for a youngster making his first start.
France have to invest in their young talent. Pick them and keep picking them. There are plenty of good players available. Its a crying shame to see talent being routinely misdirected.

Yes, Bamba, who's only 20, will be in the French front row for many years to come and will indeed be a force to be reckoned with. Hooker Julien Marchand, who was sadly injured against Wales will also become a fixture in France's first choice XV. Ginger Lambey isn't your typical modern day second row being a bit lightweight, but has bags of energy and commitment and should keep his place for the rest of the 6N.

[Adam_P]

Lawes was first rate yesterday and has been for England over the last couple of seasons. He's one of our 2 best locks. The other is Itoje.

I think Kruis deserves a little more credit for his past two games - his work rate and ruck work has been immense. On first watch, I thought Lawes was excellent, but Kruis was the glue that held it all together.

I'd be interested to see the ruck marks for him and Lawes and I can't help wondering if him going off was the instigator of our game getting scrappy.

Puja

This is really why I asked the question about what our best pairing is. Individually I think Itoje and Lawes are the best two locks, but with the way Kruis has been playing lately I can't help but feel the best pairing is either Lawes/Kruis or Itoje/Kruis. The decision was easier a little while ago when Kruis' form dipped a bit, but he looks very good again now.

[Beasties]

I'd give Bamba a pass too. Did well for a youngster making his first start.
France have to invest in their young talent. Pick them and keep picking them. There are plenty of good players available. Its a crying shame to see talent being routinely misdirected.

Yes, Bamba, who's only 20, will be in the French front row for many years to come and will indeed be a force to be reckoned with. Hooker Julien Marchand, who was sadly injured against Wales will also become a fixture in France's first choice XV. Ginger Lambey isn't your typical modern day second row being a bit lightweight, but has bags of energy and commitment and should keep his place for the rest of the 6N.

Were you impressed by Lambey yest? I thought he looked good coming on v Wales last week when his team mates lost the plot but just sort of ambled about the place to no effect v Eng. I didn't see bags of energy. I have only ever seen him in those two games but those were my first impressions. I also kept looking at him and thinking 15 stone?

[Digby]

Duplicate

[Digby]

You did in fact posit we weren't very good playing at pace before the game; I'd agree we need it, and in fact see we nearly have the personnel to do it, but I'd see it evolving from this platform. Again, its miles better to add new stuff in from a winning platform, with stabilised combos......and he'd have to drop Youngs.

The box kicking is overdone, but can't yet argue on the return. You could also hypothesise that EJ isn't showing his whole hand as yet.

I fear the lesson to be learned from this game is whenever it opened up France came into it, whereas when we slowed it down kicked well and as a team chased brilliantly we had control

I agree it is easier to add to a winning side, but I also to switch sports think if you want to be a fast bowler you need to bowl fast and learn control, not learn length and line and then try to add pace

I'm also not sure on Youngs needing to go if we did speed play up, shortening the gap from 9-10 whilst speeding up play, there are reasons to drop Youngs but I'm not sure he wouldn't be better for upping the tempo

Main concern however is our starting front row looks excellent but the cover is much slower or unproven

[Scrumhead]

I'd give Bamba a pass too. Did well for a youngster making his first start.
France have to invest in their young talent. Pick them and keep picking them. There are plenty of good players available. Its a crying shame to see talent being routinely misdirected.

Yes, Bamba, who's only 20, will be in the French front row for many years to come and will indeed be a force to be reckoned with. Hooker Julien Marchand, who was sadly injured against Wales will also become a fixture in France's first choice XV. Ginger Lambey isn't your typical modern day second row being a bit lightweight, but has bags of energy and commitment and should keep his place for the rest of the 6N.

Agreed. France have some real talent coming through and even if it leads to short term pain, they’d be better off investing in them rather than persevering with guys who have typically underperformed.

Guirardo maybe gets a pass and has been a good servant but in Marchand, Chat and Bougarit they have three strong hookers to replace him and it can’t be long before they turn to the likes of Woki and Joseph in the back row and Carbonel et al in the backs.

[Scrumhead]

You did in fact posit we weren't very good playing at pace before the game; I'd agree we need it, and in fact see we nearly have the personnel to do it, but I'd see it evolving from this platform. Again, its miles better to add new stuff in from a winning platform, with stabilised combos......and he'd have to drop Youngs.

The box kicking is overdone, but can't yet argue on the return. You could also hypothesise that EJ isn't showing his whole hand as yet.

I fear the lesson to be learned from this game is whenever it opened up France came into it, whereas when we slowed it down kicked well and as a team chased brilliantly we had control

I agree it is easier to add to a winning side, but I also to switch sports think if you want to be a fast bowler you need to bowl fast and learn control, not learn length and line and then try to add pace

I'm also not sure on Youngs needing to go if we did speed play up, shortening the gap from 9-10 whilst speeding up play, there are reasons to drop Youngs but I'm not sure he wouldn't be better for upping the tempo

Main concern however is our starting front row looks excellent but the cover is much slower or unproven

It’s a mix. Genge is not slow but is unproven. Moon is slow and unproven (but has looked the part when he has played), Williams is slow and unproven (and hasn’t really looked up to it and Cole is proven but slow.

I don’t see what Williams offers. Cole isn’t exactly and impact sub but he has some valuable qualities to bring and has been in good form. I would have preferred to have had Henry Thomas in the squad, but hey ho.

[Scrumhead]

Lawes was first rate yesterday and has been for England over the last couple of seasons. He's one of our 2 best locks. The other is Itoje.

I think Kruis deserves a little more credit for his past two games - his work rate and ruck work has been immense. On first watch, I thought Lawes was excellent, but Kruis was the glue that held it all together.

I'd be interested to see the ruck marks for him and Lawes and I can't help wondering if him going off was the instigator of our game getting scrappy.

Puja

This is really why I asked the question about what our best pairing is. Individually I think Itoje and Lawes are the best two locks, but with the way Kruis has been playing lately I can't help but feel the best pairing is either Lawes/Kruis or Itoje/Kruis. The decision was easier a little while ago when Kruis' form dipped a bit, but he looks very good again now.

Yep. Kruis and Itoje are the best pairing for me.

Harsh on Lawes who has been excellent in most of the games he’s played recently (AIs and 6N) but he offers genuine impact off the bench which is a great asset for us.

[Banquo]

You did in fact posit we weren't very good playing at pace before the game; I'd agree we need it, and in fact see we nearly have the personnel to do it, but I'd see it evolving from this platform. Again, its miles better to add new stuff in from a winning platform, with stabilised combos......and he'd have to drop Youngs.

The box kicking is overdone, but can't yet argue on the return. You could also hypothesise that EJ isn't showing his whole hand as yet.

I fear the lesson to be learned from this game is whenever it opened up France came into it, whereas when we slowed it down kicked well and as a team chased brilliantly we had control

I agree it is easier to add to a winning side, but I also to switch sports think if you want to be a fast bowler you need to bowl fast and learn control, not learn length and line and then try to add pace

I'm also not sure on Youngs needing to go if we did speed play up, shortening the gap from 9-10 whilst speeding up play, there are reasons to drop Youngs but I'm not sure he wouldn't be better for upping the tempo

Main concern however is our starting front row looks excellent but the cover is much slower or unproven

The primary evidence on Youngs is his panic whenever we get turnover ball, the secondary his general faffiness. I do agree that a 10 standing closer and flatter would make his service look a bit better.
Your cricket analogy is pony

[Banquo]

Which two locks our the best 2nd row with everyone fit? Thought Lawes was the best forward on the pitch yesterday, with both flankers also up there. Everyone seems to be saying we'll be strong when Itoje returns to the side, but I wouldn't swap Lawes for him.

Itoje is our best all round lock, comfortably imo. You started in the wrong place

[francoisfou]

I'd give Bamba a pass too. Did well for a youngster making his first start.
France have to invest in their young talent. Pick them and keep picking them. There are plenty of good players available. Its a crying shame to see talent being routinely misdirected.

Yes, Bamba, who's only 20, will be in the French front row for many years to come and will indeed be a force to be reckoned with. Hooker Julien Marchand, who was sadly injured against Wales will also become a fixture in France's first choice XV. Ginger Lambey isn't your typical modern day second row being a bit lightweight, but has bags of energy and commitment and should keep his place for the rest of the 6N.

Were you impressed by Lambey yest? I thought he looked good coming on v Wales last week when his team mates lost the plot but just sort of ambled about the place to no effect v Eng. I didn't see bags of energy. I have only ever seen him in those two games but those were my first impressions. I also kept looking at him and thinking 15 stone?

He wasn't the only one who was made to look a bit ordinary yesterday bet he's a player worth persevering with and doesn't shirk tackling.

[francoisfou]

I'd give Bamba a pass too. Did well for a youngster making his first start.
France have to invest in their young talent. Pick them and keep picking them. There are plenty of good players available. Its a crying shame to see talent being routinely misdirected.

Yes, Bamba, who's only 20, will be in the French front row for many years to come and will indeed be a force to be reckoned with. Hooker Julien Marchand, who was sadly injured against Wales will also become a fixture in France's first choice XV. Ginger Lambey isn't your typical modern day second row being a bit lightweight, but has bags of energy and commitment and should keep his place for the rest of the 6N.

Agreed. France have some real talent coming through and even if it leads to short term pain, they’d be better off investing in them rather than persevering with guys who have typically underperformed.

Guirardo maybe gets a pass and has been a good servant but in Marchand, Chat and Bougarit they have three strong hookers to replace him and it can’t be long before they turn to the likes of Woki and Joseph in the back row and Carbonel et al in the backs.

Louis Carbonel apparently played well in the U20 match at Exeter and I'd like to see him given his chance in the senior XV.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Oh, one negative: LCD. He was off the pace quite considerably.

He should get gametime against Italy...but if he doesn't make use of it, is there anyone else who could be parachuted into the 3rd hooker slot pre-WC?

Was he? One badly missed tackle aside I thought he really made an impact. A serious amount of tackles. Scrum penalty in his first scrum. Turnover. Lineout was good.