Eng v Fra Match Thread

[JellyHead]

Oh, one negative: LCD. He was off the pace quite considerably.

He should get gametime against Italy...but if he doesn't make use of it, is there anyone else who could be parachuted into the 3rd hooker slot pre-WC?

Was he? One badly missed tackle aside I thought he really made an impact. A serious amount of tackles. Scrum penalty in his first scrum. Turnover. Lineout was good.

I had the similar thoughts as Stom and thought his lineouts were poor. But by then I was neck deep in beer and not paying a huge amount of attention so happy to be told I'm wrong. I've not re-watched the match yet.

[Oakboy]

Lawes was first rate yesterday and has been for England over the last couple of seasons. He's one of our 2 best locks. The other is Itoje.

I think Kruis deserves a little more credit for his past two games - his work rate and ruck work has been immense. On first watch, I thought Lawes was excellent, but Kruis was the glue that held it all together.

I'd be interested to see the ruck marks for him and Lawes and I can't help wondering if him going off was the instigator of our game getting scrappy.

Puja

I have not rated Kruis previously but I think you are right based on the 2 matches so far. He appears to have intense concentration levels that count for a lot with a limited, specific game plan - i.e. Saracens. If they get more expansive, either with a less limited game plan or because they are free to play what is in front of them, I suspect he will be less comfortable.

Kruis will definitely start against Wales when I suspect Jones will keep the game tight and limited again. There is talk that Itoje will be fit by then - remarkable if it's true.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Oh, one negative: LCD. He was off the pace quite considerably.

He should get gametime against Italy...but if he doesn't make use of it, is there anyone else who could be parachuted into the 3rd hooker slot pre-WC?

Was he? One badly missed tackle aside I thought he really made an impact. A serious amount of tackles. Scrum penalty in his first scrum. Turnover. Lineout was good.

I had the similar thoughts as Stom and thought his lineouts were poor. But by then I was neck deep in beer and not paying a huge amount of attention so happy to be told I'm wrong. I've not re-watched the match yet.

We lost two lineout. The first loss Kruis called it to himself and the French got in front. The second loss was on the money and Lawes dropped the ball when coming down.

You could argue the first, but also credit the French for reading it. Just looked a good steal.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Was he? One badly missed tackle aside I thought he really made an impact. A serious amount of tackles. Scrum penalty in his first scrum. Turnover. Lineout was good.

I had the similar thoughts as Stom and thought his lineouts were poor. But by then I was neck deep in beer and not paying a huge amount of attention so happy to be told I'm wrong. I've not re-watched the match yet.

We lost two lineout. The first loss Kruis called it to himself and the French got in front. The second loss was on the money and Lawes dropped the ball when coming down.

You could argue the first, but also credit the French for reading it. Just looked a good steal.

Correction, the one we lost with LCD was to the back and France got in front. The Kruis one was on George’s throw.

[Digby]

The primary evidence on Youngs is his panic whenever we get turnover ball, the secondary his general faffiness. I do agree that a 10 standing closer and flatter would make his service look a bit better.
Your cricket analogy is pony

I've dreamed of the day my analogies would rise to such levels. Still imo until you up the tempo you don't know what will start to fall apart in your attack, be it handling skills, alignment, ball presentation and clearouts... and decision making has to be practiced, so I fail to see how you can reach a level of control and then try to reduce play the ball time by perhaps 0.3 seconds, instead you need to increase the play the ball speed and then figure out how to support it (easy example being Clive's 26-26 game vs NZ which showed all manner of technical and fitness problems but at least set out an intent to play)

Also out of curiosity what would secondary evidence be on Youngs, or tertiary come to that? Fwiw he has in the past looked one of the best 9s we've ever had presented with turnover ball, whether he's simply lost that, is following orders to kick anyway and/or considers if he goes quickly we'll not be able to support I don't know, but I would like to find out

This does feel rather churlish taken in the context of what was individually was a very impressive performance, but having been wondering where our pace has gone since 2002 I've not quite given up hoping it'll return

[Banquo]

The primary evidence on Youngs is his panic whenever we get turnover ball, the secondary his general faffiness. I do agree that a 10 standing closer and flatter would make his service look a bit better.
Your cricket analogy is pony

I've dreamed of the day my analogies would rise to such levels. Still imo until you up the tempo you don't know what will start to fall apart in your attack, be it handling skills, alignment, ball presentation and clearouts... and decision making has to be practiced, so I fail to see how you can reach a level of control and then try to reduce play the ball time by perhaps 0.3 seconds, instead you need to increase the play the ball speed and then figure out how to support it (easy example being Clive's 26-26 game vs NZ which showed all manner of technical and fitness problems but at least set out an intent to play)

Also out of curiosity what would secondary evidence be on Youngs, or tertiary come to that? Fwiw he has in the past looked one of the best 9s we've ever had presented with turnover ball, whether he's simply lost that, is following orders to kick anyway and/or considers if he goes quickly we'll not be able to support I don't know, but I would like to find out

This does feel rather churlish taken in the context of what was individually was a very impressive performance, but having been wondering where our pace has gone since 2002 I've not quite given up hoping it'll return

My point about the analogy is you actually do want to learn your technique (your length and line piece) at the breakdown, passing, skills/decision making etc before ramping up the pace/pressure, and you need to have those skills raised across the board, else it will fall apart. Intent to play is kind of irrelevant to me, its executing that matters, especially at this time in the teams development so close to a world cup.

Youngs hasn't been the player you describe for years, which is my huge disappointment with him; he used to be an instinctive player, but now his head/feet/hands seem to be mired in treacle. if you are trying to argue he is a sharp decision maker, then we part company.

Frankly, we've made a quantum leap in 6 months or so imo- mostly through actually having a backrow and carriers. I'll settle for cranking that up incrementally.

[Stom]

Aye, that pack is just balanced now... Compare the two:

Mako, George, Sinckler
Lawes, Kruis
Wilson, Billy, Curry

Marler, Hartley, Cole
Itoje, Launchbury
Lawes, Billy, Haskell

[twitchy]

Eddie reckon mako has an "outside chance" of making cardiff. Would be a big blow if we lost him.

[Stom]

Eddie reckon mako has an "outside chance" of making cardiff. Would be a big blow if we lost him.

Huge blow...

I hope it's Eddie playing his usual.

[Renniks]

I'd rather he was rested than rushed back!

One of the best forwards in the world right now, and to put that at risk for the RWC would be daft

[Banquo]

I'd rather he was rested than rushed back!

One of the best forwards in the world right now, and to put that at risk for the RWC would be daft

aye.

[Puja]

On the bright side, apparently Itoje has an outside chance if Wales as well. Very surprising, but good news, if it's not total bollocks.

Puja

[Peej]

Will it be Biggar though? He was pretty crap yesterday. Maybe we should hope it is!

He played pretty well first half, but was well dodgy for 10 minutes.......but I'd worry a lot more about him than Anscombe, especially if they decide to go aerial....he's the best kick (and) chaser in intl rugby imo, and he's terrific under the high ball in the backfield too. Bit static running the ball mind.

Good point about the up and under and chasing!

[Renniks]

I'm really impressed with May's second try…

Mainly because it seemed like Youngs was doing everything possible to stop us scoring.

Watching a replay, there were 4 or 5 instances in 3 plays where forwards started their run up to hit the line at pace, where they were either not passed to, or had to slow up to get the ball - the best for me was George starting to move to realise that Youngs was nowhere near ready!

[Digby]

The primary evidence on Youngs is his panic whenever we get turnover ball, the secondary his general faffiness. I do agree that a 10 standing closer and flatter would make his service look a bit better.
Your cricket analogy is pony

I've dreamed of the day my analogies would rise to such levels. Still imo until you up the tempo you don't know what will start to fall apart in your attack, be it handling skills, alignment, ball presentation and clearouts... and decision making has to be practiced, so I fail to see how you can reach a level of control and then try to reduce play the ball time by perhaps 0.3 seconds, instead you need to increase the play the ball speed and then figure out how to support it (easy example being Clive's 26-26 game vs NZ which showed all manner of technical and fitness problems but at least set out an intent to play)

Also out of curiosity what would secondary evidence be on Youngs, or tertiary come to that? Fwiw he has in the past looked one of the best 9s we've ever had presented with turnover ball, whether he's simply lost that, is following orders to kick anyway and/or considers if he goes quickly we'll not be able to support I don't know, but I would like to find out

This does feel rather churlish taken in the context of what was individually was a very impressive performance, but having been wondering where our pace has gone since 2002 I've not quite given up hoping it'll return

My point about the analogy is you actually do want to learn your technique (your length and line piece) at the breakdown, passing, skills/decision making etc before ramping up the pace/pressure, and you need to have those skills raised across the board, else it will fall apart. Intent to play is kind of irrelevant to me, its executing that matters, especially at this time in the teams development so close to a world cup.

Youngs hasn't been the player you describe for years, which is my huge disappointment with him; he used to be an instinctive player, but now his head/feet/hands seem to be mired in treacle. if you are trying to argue he is a sharp decision maker, then we part company.

Frankly, we've made a quantum leap in 6 months or so imo- mostly through actually having a backrow and carriers. I'll settle for cranking that up incrementally.

Whilst I accept coaching and training at all levels is really about delivering on the basics it does seem to me you can't just speed up existing forms of playing to up the intensity, it changes not just the pressure on skills and decision making but also running lines on the pitch, you need to find short cuts in moving between phases else it does become too much and fatigue will kill you inside the hour - though we can see right now England are able to slow and manage games with their kicking and being able to mix up play will help

[Banquo]

I've dreamed of the day my analogies would rise to such levels. Still imo until you up the tempo you don't know what will start to fall apart in your attack, be it handling skills, alignment, ball presentation and clearouts... and decision making has to be practiced, so I fail to see how you can reach a level of control and then try to reduce play the ball time by perhaps 0.3 seconds, instead you need to increase the play the ball speed and then figure out how to support it (easy example being Clive's 26-26 game vs NZ which showed all manner of technical and fitness problems but at least set out an intent to play)

Also out of curiosity what would secondary evidence be on Youngs, or tertiary come to that? Fwiw he has in the past looked one of the best 9s we've ever had presented with turnover ball, whether he's simply lost that, is following orders to kick anyway and/or considers if he goes quickly we'll not be able to support I don't know, but I would like to find out

This does feel rather churlish taken in the context of what was individually was a very impressive performance, but having been wondering where our pace has gone since 2002 I've not quite given up hoping it'll return

My point about the analogy is you actually do want to learn your technique (your length and line piece) at the breakdown, passing, skills/decision making etc before ramping up the pace/pressure, and you need to have those skills raised across the board, else it will fall apart. Intent to play is kind of irrelevant to me, its executing that matters, especially at this time in the teams development so close to a world cup.

Youngs hasn't been the player you describe for years, which is my huge disappointment with him; he used to be an instinctive player, but now his head/feet/hands seem to be mired in treacle. if you are trying to argue he is a sharp decision maker, then we part company.

Frankly, we've made a quantum leap in 6 months or so imo- mostly through actually having a backrow and carriers. I'll settle for cranking that up incrementally.

Whilst I accept coaching and training at all levels is really about delivering on the basics it does seem to me you can't just speed up existing forms of playing to up the intensity, it changes not just the pressure on skills and decision making but also running lines on the pitch, you need to find short cuts in moving between phases else it does become too much and fatigue will kill you inside the hour - though we can see right now England are able to slow and manage games with their kicking and being able to mix up play will help

My key and original point being evolving the build up in pace and variety (ie not just speeding up what we do now), and then I used the phrase cranking it up incrementally. Moving wholesale to a new style seems unlikely to work, as pretty much shown when France raised the pace occasionally; small to medium size steps....based on good basics, and the confidence born of winning. I do think we have shown a variety of plays more than before, it just gets a bit lost in the deluge of box kicks and Youngs literally and metaphorically putting his foot on the ball.

[Digby]

My key and original point being evolving the build up in pace and variety (ie not just speeding up what we do now), and then I used the phrase cranking it up incrementally. Moving wholesale to a new style seems unlikely to work, as pretty much shown when France raised the pace occasionally; small to medium size steps....based on good basics, and the confidence born of winning. I do think we have shown a variety of plays more than before, it just gets a bit lost in the deluge of box kicks and Youngs literally and metaphorically putting his foot on the ball.

We're mostly likely stuck with an incremental approach now anyway, about the only chance a coach gets to reset and push a much higher pace that could easily backfire is in the honeymoon period after first arriving, and nobody has done that since Clive. And actually we're down to so few games before the WC we might not even see the increments, and instead we'll be looking to add some details to the current structure and options

[Banquo]

My key and original point being evolving the build up in pace and variety (ie not just speeding up what we do now), and then I used the phrase cranking it up incrementally. Moving wholesale to a new style seems unlikely to work, as pretty much shown when France raised the pace occasionally; small to medium size steps....based on good basics, and the confidence born of winning. I do think we have shown a variety of plays more than before, it just gets a bit lost in the deluge of box kicks and Youngs literally and metaphorically putting his foot on the ball.

We're mostly likely stuck with an incremental approach now anyway, about the only chance a coach gets to reset and push a much higher pace that could easily backfire is in the honeymoon period after first arriving, and nobody has done that since Clive. And actually we're down to so few games before the WC we might not even see the increments, and instead we'll be looking to add some details to the current structure and options

As I said, between the box kicks and the foot on the ball, there were a few interesting bits and pieces, its then a question of doing the same with less time and space. The decision making on the attacking kicks was very good, even if there was a giant arrow pointing at masses of empty turf.

[Digby]

Empty turf, or sometimes better yet Parra who'd run in and do nothing but remove what scarce backfield cover there was

[Oakboy]

As a preparation exercise for Cardiff, the game against France was pretty useless. It was just a functional performance and a result.

I loathe the 6N gap weeks but I suspect that Jones needs the two weeks' preparation. In a daft sort of way, the last two home fixtures could be the most interesting. Any sort of a performance in Cardiff, provided it's a winning one, could lead to changes thereafter and an indication of Jones's RWC thinking. I still don't like the bloke but he's in a good place if he can maintain the momentum.

[Banquo]

As a preparation exercise for Cardiff, the game against France was pretty useless. It was just a functional performance and a result.

I loathe the 6N gap weeks but I suspect that Jones needs the two weeks' preparation. In a daft sort of way, the last two home fixtures could be the most interesting. Any sort of a performance in Cardiff, provided it's a winning one, could lead to changes thereafter and an indication of Jones's RWC thinking. I still don't like the bloke but he's in a good place if he can maintain the momentum.

why would he make major changes v Scotland, or indeed Italy? This team is hardly a settled one- lots of new units, need as much time as possible imo.

[Oakboy]

As a preparation exercise for Cardiff, the game against France was pretty useless. It was just a functional performance and a result.

I loathe the 6N gap weeks but I suspect that Jones needs the two weeks' preparation. In a daft sort of way, the last two home fixtures could be the most interesting. Any sort of a performance in Cardiff, provided it's a winning one, could lead to changes thereafter and an indication of Jones's RWC thinking. I still don't like the bloke but he's in a good place if he can maintain the momentum.

why would he make major changes v Scotland, or indeed Italy? This team is hardly a settled one- lots of new units, need as much time as possible imo.

Oh, I agree but will he, for instance, start Robson in one of the games? Will he rest Farrell just once? Will he start Coka? What about Slade/JJ? Clifford or Shields?

There are relatively few games left. He must still need to answer a few questions. I expect him to try one or two twists in the 6N even if only from the bench.

[Banquo]

As a preparation exercise for Cardiff, the game against France was pretty useless. It was just a functional performance and a result.

I loathe the 6N gap weeks but I suspect that Jones needs the two weeks' preparation. In a daft sort of way, the last two home fixtures could be the most interesting. Any sort of a performance in Cardiff, provided it's a winning one, could lead to changes thereafter and an indication of Jones's RWC thinking. I still don't like the bloke but he's in a good place if he can maintain the momentum.

why would he make major changes v Scotland, or indeed Italy? This team is hardly a settled one- lots of new units, need as much time as possible imo.

Oh, I agree but will he, for instance, start Robson in one of the games? Will he rest Farrell just once? Will he start Coka? What about Slade/JJ? Clifford or Shields?

There are relatively few games left. He must still need to answer a few questions. I expect him to try one or two twists in the 6N even if only from the bench.

Fair dinkum, esp Robson.