Wal vs. Eng - Match Thread

[Banquo]

You didn’t disagree with ‘other than NZ’ so I assumed you agree. Who do have the second best squad?

Because NZ clearly have the best squad; I think Ireland have a very good squad as it happens.

I'm assuming therefore you are blaming Jones for not being second best in the world, as opposed to 4th.

This is a weird turn of the thread from where you were previously , though in fairness it was a general frustration, which I share. But for me, there remains a problem with player quality

So you think we have the third best squad? I’d take our squad over Ire but it’s close. We’re also discussing the last 10 years and the next 10 years. Everything at our disposal means that we should consistently be at the sharp end whilst smaller nations fluctuate around us.
When fit, I think we have a squad that should mean we consistently beat all, other than NZ, and one that should have us consistently in the top two in the world.
What shouldn’t happen is the clueless last 30 against Wales, 2018 6N etc. I do blame Jones. As a selector I think he’s poor and I’m sick of this sticking to traditional English strengths, ie 10 man rugby. In Ford, Slade, Joseph, Tuilagi, May, Watson and Daly we have some absolute quality in the backs to play with width. To be clear, I’m not happy with where the team is. I just think that with everything at the RFU’s disposal - money, player numbers, age group pathway and current playing squad - we should consistently be top two with no4 being a blip rather than return to the mean. That’s not say we don’t need upgrades in places, but who doesn’t.

I don't think we are disagreeing, save I am not surprised we are inconsistent; EJ isn't an awesome coach, and our players, even the best, make poor decisions under pressure, which is why we need to improve them or change them. I don't think you can say our squad should be consistently beating Ireland though, and I think Wales are a little under-rated; I think SA if well selected and coached could be a major threat again.

[Banquo]

I’m coming round more and more to the idea that so many teams are lacking in serious skills and the only thing that matters is players being fired up and throwing themselves into contact.

Ireland can do it pretty consistently so have done well. Wales can certainly muster it, especially if they hate a team as much as England. Even Scotland can build themselves up occasionally and put in a serious performance against NZ/England, Aus after getting screwed out of the World Cup. Only NZ have the actual skills to get around this if they’re not winning the collisions.

I think about watching Munster the week after Foley died and I genuinely think they would have beaten any team in the world.

I slightly disagree on skills- winning collisions is important, though some of that is skill and decision making; however, Ireland's skill levels, esp decision making at the breakdown have been superb.....that said, they have also broken a bit under pressure this 6N; Scotland also often show high skill levels at the breakdown, and Wales showed how they can retain the ball and a high level of defensive skills. What they have in common at their best is marrying passion for the shirt with good decision making; that Munster example is interesting, in that people look at the collective effort and the sheer ferocity of playing for the shirt, and miss the rugby smarts and techniques that underpin these.

[Stom]

Because NZ clearly have the best squad; I think Ireland have a very good squad as it happens.

I'm assuming therefore you are blaming Jones for not being second best in the world, as opposed to 4th.

This is a weird turn of the thread from where you were previously , though in fairness it was a general frustration, which I share. But for me, there remains a problem with player quality

So you think we have the third best squad? I’d take our squad over Ire but it’s close. We’re also discussing the last 10 years and the next 10 years. Everything at our disposal means that we should consistently be at the sharp end whilst smaller nations fluctuate around us.
When fit, I think we have a squad that should mean we consistently beat all, other than NZ, and one that should have us consistently in the top two in the world.
What shouldn’t happen is the clueless last 30 against Wales, 2018 6N etc. I do blame Jones. As a selector I think he’s poor and I’m sick of this sticking to traditional English strengths, ie 10 man rugby. In Ford, Slade, Joseph, Tuilagi, May, Watson and Daly we have some absolute quality in the backs to play with width. To be clear, I’m not happy with where the team is. I just think that with everything at the RFU’s disposal - money, player numbers, age group pathway and current playing squad - we should consistently be top two with no4 being a blip rather than return to the mean. That’s not say we don’t need upgrades in places, but who doesn’t.

I don't think we are disagreeing, save I am not surprised we are inconsistent; EJ isn't an awesome coach, and our players, even the best, make poor decisions under pressure, which is why we need to improve them or change them. I don't think you can say our squad should be consistently beating Ireland though, and I think Wales are a little under-rated; I think SA if well selected and coached could be a major threat again.

But, you see, those same Welsh players hardly pull up trees week in week out. Because it's not the players that aren't up to scratch but the coaching at international level.

If we cannot get the most out of our current squad, what makes you think improving the quality is going to help?

We need to take one step at a time. We've made huge strides forward in player quality (Slade vs Erinle anyone...) but we're lacking in the ability to make the most of it at international level.

Which is a coaching problem.

[Stom]

I’m coming round more and more to the idea that so many teams are lacking in serious skills and the only thing that matters is players being fired up and throwing themselves into contact.

Ireland can do it pretty consistently so have done well. Wales can certainly muster it, especially if they hate a team as much as England. Even Scotland can build themselves up occasionally and put in a serious performance against NZ/England, Aus after getting screwed out of the World Cup. Only NZ have the actual skills to get around this if they’re not winning the collisions.

I think about watching Munster the week after Foley died and I genuinely think they would have beaten any team in the world.

I slightly disagree on skills- winning collisions is important, though some of that is skill and decision making; however, Ireland's skill levels, esp decision making at the breakdown have been superb.....that said, they have also broken a bit under pressure this 6N; Scotland also often show high skill levels at the breakdown, and Wales showed how they can retain the ball and a high level of defensive skills. What they have in common at their best is marrying passion for the shirt with good decision making; that Munster example is interesting, in that people look at the collective effort and the sheer ferocity of playing for the shirt, and miss the rugby smarts and techniques that underpin these.

I'm going to use a football analogy here...sorry.

People often say there are hard grafters who made the most out of limited skills. Like Heskey. And there are god given talents who are just incredible. Like Messi. But it's the players who marry the two: incredible talent and the utmost application, who are the best. Ronaldo.

And that really does match what you're saying: we need both better players and better coaching.

BUT

I still disagree on the order. Improve what we've got. THEN look to add to it.

[Digby]

we are inconsistent because of average coaching, and because our skills and decision making under pressure aren't good/consistent enough.

You say that but then look at the Wales game where Anscombe and then Biggar dropped to field kicks leaving Farrell free to take the ball up, it's not like we just kicked ball away regardless to a fortified backfield you know. Okay sometimes the Welsh 9 charged right at Farrell, but it's not like Farrell showed the footwork of a statue, and just think of all those inside passes Farrell slipped to the blindside wing working off their wing exploiting the space the Welsh 9&10 had vacated and were hoping to cover with forwards. I mean once Cockanasiga was on he was gassing tired Welsh forwards for fun making huge breaks up the middle, I seem to recall he made a linebreak every time we passed him the ball

You sir need to open your eyes to see the glory of the coming of the Lord

[Banquo]

So you think we have the third best squad? I’d take our squad over Ire but it’s close. We’re also discussing the last 10 years and the next 10 years. Everything at our disposal means that we should consistently be at the sharp end whilst smaller nations fluctuate around us.
When fit, I think we have a squad that should mean we consistently beat all, other than NZ, and one that should have us consistently in the top two in the world.
What shouldn’t happen is the clueless last 30 against Wales, 2018 6N etc. I do blame Jones. As a selector I think he’s poor and I’m sick of this sticking to traditional English strengths, ie 10 man rugby. In Ford, Slade, Joseph, Tuilagi, May, Watson and Daly we have some absolute quality in the backs to play with width. To be clear, I’m not happy with where the team is. I just think that with everything at the RFU’s disposal - money, player numbers, age group pathway and current playing squad - we should consistently be top two with no4 being a blip rather than return to the mean. That’s not say we don’t need upgrades in places, but who doesn’t.

I don't think we are disagreeing, save I am not surprised we are inconsistent; EJ isn't an awesome coach, and our players, even the best, make poor decisions under pressure, which is why we need to improve them or change them. I don't think you can say our squad should be consistently beating Ireland though, and I think Wales are a little under-rated; I think SA if well selected and coached could be a major threat again.

But, you see, those same Welsh players hardly pull up trees week in week out. Because it's not the players that aren't up to scratch but the coaching at international level.

If we cannot get the most out of our current squad, what makes you think improving the quality is going to help?

We need to take one step at a time. We've made huge strides forward in player quality (Slade vs Erinle anyone...) but we're lacking in the ability to make the most of it at international level.

Which is a coaching problem.

wow this is tiring; I've said over and over and over again there is a coaching problem throughout English rugby. Do I need to put it in bold?

I'm also saying in parallel that the basic building blocks in the players still need to improve before the intl coach gets hold of them- skill levels and decision making remain average imo, and whilst I expect an international coach to fix some of that, they can't perform miracles; that's one reason imo that Jones plays such a limited game, as he doesnt trust the basics. But he is part of the problem.

[Mellsblue]

Because NZ clearly have the best squad; I think Ireland have a very good squad as it happens.

I'm assuming therefore you are blaming Jones for not being second best in the world, as opposed to 4th.

This is a weird turn of the thread from where you were previously , though in fairness it was a general frustration, which I share. But for me, there remains a problem with player quality

So you think we have the third best squad? I’d take our squad over Ire but it’s close. We’re also discussing the last 10 years and the next 10 years. Everything at our disposal means that we should consistently be at the sharp end whilst smaller nations fluctuate around us.
When fit, I think we have a squad that should mean we consistently beat all, other than NZ, and one that should have us consistently in the top two in the world.
What shouldn’t happen is the clueless last 30 against Wales, 2018 6N etc. I do blame Jones. As a selector I think he’s poor and I’m sick of this sticking to traditional English strengths, ie 10 man rugby. In Ford, Slade, Joseph, Tuilagi, May, Watson and Daly we have some absolute quality in the backs to play with width. To be clear, I’m not happy with where the team is. I just think that with everything at the RFU’s disposal - money, player numbers, age group pathway and current playing squad - we should consistently be top two with no4 being a blip rather than return to the mean. That’s not say we don’t need upgrades in places, but who doesn’t.

I don't think we are disagreeing, save I am not surprised we are inconsistent; EJ isn't an awesome coach, and our players, even the best, make poor decisions under pressure, which is why we need to improve them or change them. I don't think you can say our squad should be consistently beating Ireland though, and I think Wales are a little under-rated; I think SA if well selected and coached could be a major threat again.

I think we are agreeing. Saying we have the second best squad doesn’t mean I think we can’t find improvements.
When I say consistently beating Ireland I do mean over the long term. As above, our sheer size, both money and player numbers, compared to most other nations means we shouldn’t have as many troughs in player quality.
I agree SA should be up there with us but their current lack of money in their domestic game and political issues hamper them.

[Banquo]

I’m coming round more and more to the idea that so many teams are lacking in serious skills and the only thing that matters is players being fired up and throwing themselves into contact.

Ireland can do it pretty consistently so have done well. Wales can certainly muster it, especially if they hate a team as much as England. Even Scotland can build themselves up occasionally and put in a serious performance against NZ/England, Aus after getting screwed out of the World Cup. Only NZ have the actual skills to get around this if they’re not winning the collisions.

I think about watching Munster the week after Foley died and I genuinely think they would have beaten any team in the world.

I slightly disagree on skills- winning collisions is important, though some of that is skill and decision making; however, Ireland's skill levels, esp decision making at the breakdown have been superb.....that said, they have also broken a bit under pressure this 6N; Scotland also often show high skill levels at the breakdown, and Wales showed how they can retain the ball and a high level of defensive skills. What they have in common at their best is marrying passion for the shirt with good decision making; that Munster example is interesting, in that people look at the collective effort and the sheer ferocity of playing for the shirt, and miss the rugby smarts and techniques that underpin these.

I'm going to use a football analogy here...sorry.

People often say there are hard grafters who made the most out of limited skills. Like Heskey. And there are god given talents who are just incredible. Like Messi. But it's the players who marry the two: incredible talent and the utmost application, who are the best. Ronaldo.

And that really does match what you're saying: we need both better players and better coaching.

BUT

I still disagree on the order. Improve what we've got. THEN look to add to it.

I'm not prescribing an order, but both need fixing. Its easier to fix the coaching if you find the right coach, the rest is evolution from where we are, other than selection. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand, perhaps its me.

[Banquo]

we are inconsistent because of average coaching, and because our skills and decision making under pressure aren't good/consistent enough.

You say that but then look at the Wales game where Anscombe and then Biggar dropped to field kicks leaving Farrell free to take the ball up, it's not like we just kicked ball away regardless to a fortified backfield you know. Okay sometimes the Welsh 9 charged right at Farrell, but it's not like Farrell showed the footwork of a statue, and just think of all those inside passes Farrell slipped to the blindside wing working off their wing exploiting the space the Welsh 9&10 had vacated and were hoping to cover with forwards. I mean once Cockanasiga was on he was gassing tired Welsh forwards for fun making huge breaks up the middle, I seem to recall he made a linebreak every time we passed him the ball

You sir need to open your eyes to see the glory of the coming of the Lord

Quite, its not a tricky point for me. The solution is a bit trickier- though picking better decision makers would help, and unconstraining the game planning.

[Stom]

I slightly disagree on skills- winning collisions is important, though some of that is skill and decision making; however, Ireland's skill levels, esp decision making at the breakdown have been superb.....that said, they have also broken a bit under pressure this 6N; Scotland also often show high skill levels at the breakdown, and Wales showed how they can retain the ball and a high level of defensive skills. What they have in common at their best is marrying passion for the shirt with good decision making; that Munster example is interesting, in that people look at the collective effort and the sheer ferocity of playing for the shirt, and miss the rugby smarts and techniques that underpin these.

I'm going to use a football analogy here...sorry.

People often say there are hard grafters who made the most out of limited skills. Like Heskey. And there are god given talents who are just incredible. Like Messi. But it's the players who marry the two: incredible talent and the utmost application, who are the best. Ronaldo.

And that really does match what you're saying: we need both better players and better coaching.

BUT

I still disagree on the order. Improve what we've got. THEN look to add to it.

I'm not prescribing an order, but both need fixing. Its easier to fix the coaching if you find the right coach, the rest is evolution from where we are, other than selection. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand, perhaps its me.

I think it's because it's the never-ending question of win now vs win later.

I say improve what we've got for immediate gains. Then when we bring better players through, we can introduce them to a winning culture.

But it does mean I'm really confused about what I want next from the England coach...Who the flying fook is there!

[Banquo]

I'm going to use a football analogy here...sorry.

People often say there are hard grafters who made the most out of limited skills. Like Heskey. And there are god given talents who are just incredible. Like Messi. But it's the players who marry the two: incredible talent and the utmost application, who are the best. Ronaldo.

And that really does match what you're saying: we need both better players and better coaching.

BUT

I still disagree on the order. Improve what we've got. THEN look to add to it.

I'm not prescribing an order, but both need fixing. Its easier to fix the coaching if you find the right coach, the rest is evolution from where we are, other than selection. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand, perhaps its me.

I think it's because it's the never-ending question of win now vs win later.

I say improve what we've got for immediate gains. Then when we bring better players through, we can introduce them to a winning culture.

But it does mean I'm really confused about what I want next from the England coach...Who the flying fook is there!

I've also consistently said that winning is the key to building/evolving a much better team; some of the improvements can be done within the training camp, some through different personnel (at half back imo). Some players need replacing, but not that many to be fair (as lack of obvious replacements). I do think the squad is as near as dammit the right one from players available (though if Robshaw and Hartley return that'd be retrograde), so I want the players to be well coached in both game planning and upskilling and decision making. Over the mid to long term the clubs need somehow to be producing better players and the standard of GP rugby raised.

[Stom]

How do you raise the standard of the Prem with the current ideas to INCREASE in size?

I just feel like the only way forward is to reduce to 10 (hell, 2 divisions of 10).

[Digby]

How do you raise the standard of the Prem with the current ideas to INCREASE in size?

I just feel like the only way forward is to reduce to 10 (hell, 2 divisions of 10).

What's the point of shrinking the premiership to support an annual world cup? That's of far more use to Australia than us

[Timbo]

You didn’t disagree with ‘other than NZ’ so I assumed you agree. Who do have the second best squad?

Because NZ clearly have the best squad; I think Ireland have a very good squad as it happens.

I'm assuming therefore you are blaming Jones for not being second best in the world, as opposed to 4th.

This is a weird turn of the thread from where you were previously , though in fairness it was a general frustration, which I share. But for me, there remains a problem with player quality

I just see Wales outperforming us with, well, Tomos Francis, Corey Hill, Ross Moriaty, Josh Navidi, Gareth Anscombe, Hadlee Parkes, Josh Amos... and think: really?

I mean, none of them are bad players, but they're not what you would call top class, are they...

I just feel like we consistently perform to a lower quality than the sum of our parts.

But the context here is that prior to Saturday we’d won the last 4 against Wales. We’ve won 6 of the last 8 and the previous two times at Cardiff. Even if they don’t have as talented a team/squad they’re still good and will turn us over from time to time.

For even wider context, prior to the most recent run of 8 games, of the previous 9 we had only won 3. Which suggests we are performing closer to the sum of our parts than we have been.

[Mikey Brown]

I'm just going to continue spouting any random thoughts that enter my head into this thread.

How much of a factor could/should it be that coaching at club level, particularly the premiership, is so much about managing to field a fully fit team for so many games within a season. I wish I could remember who'd written it but someone wrote some very good arguments for why Lancaster was so effective in various roles, and has been again for Leinster, but just wasn't suited to the national job.

Is the approach so different beyond the obvious step up in quality/intensity and having less time with the players? Are there just very few good options at the moment or is there something inherent in the role at club level that doesn't suit the national game, or doesn't allow for the development of skills in the way we'd all like?

Does a league with fewer games, more first XVs put out more regularly increase the quality of coaches, in terms if how they can manage themselves and their team? Would the impact that has on young/fringe players losing out on gametime be worth it?

Stop me if I starting making sense at any point.

[Mellsblue]

Because NZ clearly have the best squad; I think Ireland have a very good squad as it happens.

I'm assuming therefore you are blaming Jones for not being second best in the world, as opposed to 4th.

This is a weird turn of the thread from where you were previously , though in fairness it was a general frustration, which I share. But for me, there remains a problem with player quality

I just see Wales outperforming us with, well, Tomos Francis, Corey Hill, Ross Moriaty, Josh Navidi, Gareth Anscombe, Hadlee Parkes, Josh Amos... and think: really?

I mean, none of them are bad players, but they're not what you would call top class, are they...

I just feel like we consistently perform to a lower quality than the sum of our parts.

But the context here is that prior to Saturday we’d won the last 4 against Wales. We’ve won 6 of the last 8 and the previous two times at Cardiff. Even if they don’t have as talented a team/squad they’re still good and will turn us over from time to time.

For even wider context, prior to the most recent run of 8 games, of the previous 9 we had only won 3. Which suggests we are performing closer to the sum of our parts than we have been.

If we’re going for context, I’d rather look beyond results against Wales. I’d also look past just results. We went into last year’s 6N easily second in the world and on a world record equalling winning streak, and we all know what happened next.

[Which Tyler]

How do you raise the standard of the Prem with the current ideas to INCREASE in size?

I just feel like the only way forward is to reduce to 10 (hell, 2 divisions of 10).

What's the point of shrinking the premiership to support an annual world cup? That's of far more use to Australia than us

Am I the only one failing to see the direct, causative link between shrinking the Prem and an annual world cup

Oh, and @Stom - welcome to the dark side!

[Which Tyler]

Does a league with fewer games, more first XVs put out more regularly increase the quality of coaches, in terms if how they can manage themselves and their team? Would the impact that has on young/fringe players losing out on gametime be worth it?

Stop me if I starting making sense at any point.

We'll let you know.

As for the effes on the youngsters and fringe players - I believe a potential solution may have been proposed at some point...

[Timbo]

I just see Wales outperforming us with, well, Tomos Francis, Corey Hill, Ross Moriaty, Josh Navidi, Gareth Anscombe, Hadlee Parkes, Josh Amos... and think: really?

I mean, none of them are bad players, but they're not what you would call top class, are they...

I just feel like we consistently perform to a lower quality than the sum of our parts.

But the context here is that prior to Saturday we’d won the last 4 against Wales. We’ve won 6 of the last 8 and the previous two times at Cardiff. Even if they don’t have as talented a team/squad they’re still good and will turn us over from time to time.

For even wider context, prior to the most recent run of 8 games, of the previous 9 we had only won 3. Which suggests we are performing closer to the sum of our parts than we have been.

If we’re going for context, I’d rather look beyond results against Wales. I’d also look past just results. We went into last year’s 6N easily second in the world and on a world record equalling winning streak, and we all know what happened next.

The trend is upwards in terms of overall results, has been for a fairly long while now, even allowing for our crappy 2018 6N’s.

Tbh, I’ve lost the direction of this thread. Not really sure what we’re all discussing anymore. In large part I feel like there’s agreement, we all just have very slightly different perspectives.

[Stom]

How do you raise the standard of the Prem with the current ideas to INCREASE in size?

I just feel like the only way forward is to reduce to 10 (hell, 2 divisions of 10).

What's the point of shrinking the premiership to support an annual world cup? That's of far more use to Australia than us

Am I the only one failing to see the direct, causative link between shrinking the Prem and an annual world cup

Oh, and @Stom - welcome to the dark side!

I've been a member of the dark side for a looong, looooooong time.

[Digby]

How do you raise the standard of the Prem with the current ideas to INCREASE in size?

I just feel like the only way forward is to reduce to 10 (hell, 2 divisions of 10).

What's the point of shrinking the premiership to support an annual world cup? That's of far more use to Australia than us

Am I the only one failing to see the direct, causative link between shrinking the Prem and an annual world cup

Oh, and @Stom - welcome to the dark side!

I'd grant shrinking the Prem would facilitate an annual world cup, but I wouldn't of itself say it was causative. I presume I'm missing something obvious?

[Puja]

It is a truth universally acknowledged that a rugby supporter in possession of an interest in the success of the English game and half a pound of sense, must eventually want a smaller league, usually with a professional second division.

Sadly, this is not a truth CVC will ever recognise as an option.

Puja

[Digby]

Why can't I want other nations to beef up their domestic leagues and stop asking for the business of rugby to be run as a charity?

[Digby]

I suspect I'm failing the half a pound of sense test Puja is alluding to

[Which Tyler]

What's the point of shrinking the premiership to support an annual world cup? That's of far more use to Australia than us

Am I the only one failing to see the direct, causative link between shrinking the Prem and an annual world cup

Oh, and @Stom - welcome to the dark side!

I'd grant shrinking the Prem would facilitate an annual world cup, but I wouldn't of itself say it was causative. I presume I'm missing something obvious?

erm... You're the one linking the two separate issues into one. I'm failing to see any link, but you wonder what you're missing about he proposed link?

I'm getting more confused here, not less. I suspect we might be talking at cross purposes, but I'm really not sure