Can we please ban the caterpillar ruck

[fivepointer]

This has got out of hand now. The game stalls while players latch on giving the SH some extra protection ahead of a kick.

The remedy is really easy. Refs identify when a ruck is won and ball available, tell the SH to use it and give them 3 seconds to do so. If they don't, its a scrum to the opposition.

[p/d]

Couldn't agree more 5p. It is starting to ruin the game. If the ball is out its fair game.

[Banquo]

I thought they had once already. I also think refs are far to lenient as to when the ball is out of a ruck, 9's pushing it back into a ruck with their feet, players with hands on the ball to present it better etc. Needs action, along with feeding in scrums, not straight lineouts, and binding at rucks . And get rid of video refs

Its all there in the laws, use them.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I thought they had once already. I also think refs are far to lenient as to when the ball is out of a ruck, 9's pushing it back into a ruck with their feet, players with hands on the ball to present it better etc. Needs action, along with feeding in scrums, not straight lineouts, and binding at rucks . And get rid of video refs

Its all there in the laws, use them.

Applying the laws we have is a start, together with banning taking people to ground at the ruck and not penalising people for holding on on the ground when the person on their feet is clearly preventing them from doing so by latching on to the player with no intention of trying to get the ball.

And videorefs can stay, but I would make it like the review system in cricket. Requests for review can be made at a break in play by the captain. If their wrong then it's a penalty to the other side. 5 reviews per side per match. Overturning only if there's a clear and obvious error. Only go back 2 phases. Apart from that only to intervene if foul play is thought to be a yellow or greater. Ref always to take an onfield decision before referral.

[Banquo]

I thought they had once already. I also think refs are far to lenient as to when the ball is out of a ruck, 9's pushing it back into a ruck with their feet, players with hands on the ball to present it better etc. Needs action, along with feeding in scrums, not straight lineouts, and binding at rucks . And get rid of video refs

Its all there in the laws, use them.

Applying the laws we have is a start, together with banning taking people to ground at the ruck and not penalising people for holding on on the ground when the person on their feet is clearly preventing them from doing so by latching on to the player with no intention of trying to get the ball.

And videorefs can stay, but I would make it like the review system in cricket. Requests for review can be made at a break in play by the captain. If their wrong then it's a penalty to the other side. 5 reviews per side per match. Overturning only if there's a clear and obvious error. Only go back 2 phases. Apart from that only to intervene if foul play is thought to be a yellow or greater. Ref always to take an onfield decision before referral.

I'd just bin em, for the value for money angle if nothing else. Even 5 reviews per match each is a lot tbh.

[Mikey Brown]

I don’t see how it’s possible with the public scrutiny the officials are under and all the endless replays. All the stuff about actually applying the rest of the laws though, yeah I’d like that.

I like the idea of the ref just deciding when the ruck is won and prompting them to use if, but even that is a bit more complicated. Standing with one hand on a bound player definitely shouldn’t pass as contributing to a ruck though.

SHs fucking around with the ball on the floor is incredibly annoying.

[Puja]

The "Use it" command should definitely be brought down to 3 seconds, but referees are crap at penalising it even when the scrum-half dithers for longer than the 5 allowed seconds after the call. I remember when that ELV was first brought it, basically because Saracens were taking the piss with 10-15 second rucks that were 5 players long, and the first game that Sarries played the ref was all over it, handing out turnover scrums left right and centre (even for a few where the count must've been "Onetothfofive - turnover!"). Now, I can't remember the last time it was enforced.

Puja

[Digby]

Two problems with the five second rule, there's too long left before there's a call to use it and five seconds is too long once the call is made

[Banquo]

I don’t see how it’s possible with the public scrutiny the officials are under and all the endless replays. All the stuff about actually applying the rest of the laws though, yeah I’d like that.

I like the idea of the ref just deciding when the ruck is won and prompting them to use if, but even that is a bit more complicated. Standing with one hand on a bound player definitely shouldn’t pass as contributing to a ruck though.

SHs fucking around with the ball on the floor is incredibly annoying.

Since the video refs often get it wrong anyway, I don't see it as much of an issue. To me, it utterly fcks up the dynamic of games.

[Stom]

I don't have a huge problem with the TMO, but I do have a huge problem with ruck time in general.

1) The aforementioned caterpillar ruck.
2) SA style diving in - this is dangerous, reckless, and illegal. Why the hell is it not called up...
3) "holding" the ball out to the SH: this is playing the ball on the floor, ffs. It gives an unfair advantage.
4) League style lying on the ball and presenting through the legs: it removes a contest, so should be illegal

Again, enforce the laws as they are and there's no problem.

[Banquo]

I don't have a huge problem with the TMO, but I do have a huge problem with ruck time in general.

1) The aforementioned caterpillar ruck.
2) SA style diving in - this is dangerous, reckless, and illegal. Why the hell is it not called up...
3) "holding" the ball out to the SH: this is playing the ball on the floor, ffs. It gives an unfair advantage.
4) League style lying on the ball and presenting through the legs: it removes a contest, so should be illegal

Again, enforce the laws as they are and there's no problem.

To me the TMO is getting more and more intrusive and more and more cop outs from refs and RA's, and they still collectively get things wrong, often due to poor comms. I know its not about to change, but it pi55es me off

[Stom]

I don't have a huge problem with the TMO, but I do have a huge problem with ruck time in general.

1) The aforementioned caterpillar ruck.
2) SA style diving in - this is dangerous, reckless, and illegal. Why the hell is it not called up...
3) "holding" the ball out to the SH: this is playing the ball on the floor, ffs. It gives an unfair advantage.
4) League style lying on the ball and presenting through the legs: it removes a contest, so should be illegal

Again, enforce the laws as they are and there's no problem.

To me the TMO is getting more and more intrusive and more and more cop outs from refs and RA's, and they still collectively get things wrong, often due to poor comms. I know its not about to change, but it pi55es me off

Yeah, but I think that's normal. It'll even out over time. But I think the better refs generally don't screw up as much, so raise the standard of reffing and you'll solve it.

[Banquo]

I don't have a huge problem with the TMO, but I do have a huge problem with ruck time in general.

1) The aforementioned caterpillar ruck.
2) SA style diving in - this is dangerous, reckless, and illegal. Why the hell is it not called up...
3) "holding" the ball out to the SH: this is playing the ball on the floor, ffs. It gives an unfair advantage.
4) League style lying on the ball and presenting through the legs: it removes a contest, so should be illegal

Again, enforce the laws as they are and there's no problem.

To me the TMO is getting more and more intrusive and more and more cop outs from refs and RA's, and they still collectively get things wrong, often due to poor comms. I know its not about to change, but it pi55es me off

Yeah, but I think that's normal. It'll even out over time. But I think the better refs generally don't screw up as much, so raise the standard of reffing and you'll solve it.

do you mean mistakes will even out over time- that's one thing I have always thought was a bit of a nonsense- or that the TMO will get less intrusive over time?

[Stom]

To me the TMO is getting more and more intrusive and more and more cop outs from refs and RA's, and they still collectively get things wrong, often due to poor comms. I know its not about to change, but it pi55es me off

Yeah, but I think that's normal. It'll even out over time. But I think the better refs generally don't screw up as much, so raise the standard of reffing and you'll solve it.

do you mean mistakes will even out over time- that's one thing I have always thought was a bit of a nonsense- or that the TMO will get less intrusive over time?

The latter. I couldn't care if mistakes even out over time. I care that there are fewer mistakes. There should be fewer mistakes and the TMO should become less intrusive over time. The should part of that is, though...

[Banquo]

Yeah, but I think that's normal. It'll even out over time. But I think the better refs generally don't screw up as much, so raise the standard of reffing and you'll solve it.

do you mean mistakes will even out over time- that's one thing I have always thought was a bit of a nonsense- or that the TMO will get less intrusive over time?

The latter. I couldn't care if mistakes even out over time. I care that there are fewer mistakes. There should be fewer mistakes and the TMO should become less intrusive over time. The should part of that is, though...

That's what I thought- mistakes do not even out over time. Have to say though, TMO's have been in place for a while and I don't see them getting better or less intrusive, its the opposite for the latter.

[Stom]

do you mean mistakes will even out over time- that's one thing I have always thought was a bit of a nonsense- or that the TMO will get less intrusive over time?

The latter. I couldn't care if mistakes even out over time. I care that there are fewer mistakes. There should be fewer mistakes and the TMO should become less intrusive over time. The should part of that is, though...

That's what I thought- mistakes do not even out over time. Have to say though, TMO's have been in place for a while and I don't see them getting better or less intrusive, its the opposite for the latter.

I think that's because, generally, the standard of reffing has declined. They're mostly absolute shunt. Though Karl Dickson is looking pretty good, tbf. He could come along nicely.

I just think we need to look at simplifying what the refs need to do. And the only way to do that is to STOP MESSING ABOUT WITH THE LAWS! Just ask the refs to ref to the actual laws and stop adding new crap to their mind, or giving them "extra focus" every season.

[Banquo]

The latter. I couldn't care if mistakes even out over time. I care that there are fewer mistakes. There should be fewer mistakes and the TMO should become less intrusive over time. The should part of that is, though...

That's what I thought- mistakes do not even out over time. Have to say though, TMO's have been in place for a while and I don't see them getting better or less intrusive, its the opposite for the latter.

I think that's because, generally, the standard of reffing has declined. They're mostly absolute shunt. Though Karl Dickson is looking pretty good, tbf. He could come along nicely.

I just think we need to look at simplifying what the refs need to do. And the only way to do that is to STOP MESSING ABOUT WITH THE LAWS! Just ask the refs to ref to the actual laws and stop adding new crap to their mind, or giving them "extra focus" every season.

True. its the mistake we made in asking Ben Youngs to think.

(there is some truth in what you say, in the sense Owens is likely the best about and minimises TMO.....arguably over compensates)

[Digby]

I'd still like to see the equivalent of cricket wherein the referee makes a decision on the field before any referal to the TMO, and that decision is only reversed if obviously wrong. If more than 2-3 replays are needed or any rock and roll we ignore doing that and stick with the ref's call

There's too much time wasting as is which only encourages the players to get bigger, obviously scrums are a far worse culprit than the TMO, but every little helps (or hinders)

[Spiffy]

I don't have a huge problem with the TMO, but I do have a huge problem with ruck time in general.

1) The aforementioned caterpillar ruck.
2) SA style diving in - this is dangerous, reckless, and illegal. Why the hell is it not called up...
3) "holding" the ball out to the SH: this is playing the ball on the floor, ffs. It gives an unfair advantage.
4) League style lying on the ball and presenting through the legs: it removes a contest, so should be illegal

Again, enforce the laws as they are and there's no problem.

Add to that - taking out opposition players without the ball behind the back foot (introduced some time ago by NZ) and the ref awarding undeserved turnover ball. In 90% of the cases, the turnover man is not bearing his weight on his legs but is resting on his arms; then he often only has to touch the ball with two hands without getting a proper grip on it, for the ref to award; often he is overreaching the ball, then worming back on his hands etc....

[JellyHead]

I don't have a huge problem with the TMO, but I do have a huge problem with ruck time in general.

1) The aforementioned caterpillar ruck.
2) SA style diving in - this is dangerous, reckless, and illegal. Why the hell is it not called up...
3) "holding" the ball out to the SH: this is playing the ball on the floor, ffs. It gives an unfair advantage.
4) League style lying on the ball and presenting through the legs: it removes a contest, so should be illegal

Again, enforce the laws as they are and there's no problem.

My pet annoyance is the SH putting the ball back into the ruck with their feet. If it touches anyone it is off side, and not accidental offside. If it doesn't touch anyone then surely the ball is now in play as it has been played and all the defensive players in the ruck are blocking.

[Mr Mwenda]

Two things: when was reffing ever good? My memory goes back until only the early noughties and there always o'briens and walshes about.

Also, when did it become ok for the 9 to put hands on the ball and it still be in the ruck? That always seems counterintuitive to me.

[fivepointer]

I actually believe the quality of reffing now is the highest it has ever been. The guys at the top level are generally very good. Goodness knows it is a fiendishly difficult job that is impossible to be anything like 100% accurate. You will always get close calls and highly marginal decisions.
My real gripe is when easy fixes are ignored. The caterpillar could be easily dealt with and backfoot offside - which is seldom picked up - could be easily policed by the assistants. Why isnt it?
Another current bugbear is players going off their feet and sealing the ball at a breakdown. Again this isnt the hardest thing to spot and penalise, but it seems to never get picked up.
And yet an arm on an opponent at a line out is spotted and every scrum that goes down, backwards or wheels results in a penalty, when its not at all obvious who is the offender.

[Mikey Brown]

Is handing over all TMO duties to the on field ref via the big screens useful in anyway? It often ends up being that way anyway. It appears to be a bit smoother but maybe I’m imagining that. Also dependant on every stadium having one.

I’ve been wondering who is usually in control of those replays as they are often used to sway a ref/crowd after an incident.

[twitchy]

If we are just having a general moan I would add that having refs have "different interpretations" of the rules which players are some how supposed to know about in an already insanely convoluted sport is very silly.

[Banquo]

I don't have a huge problem with the TMO, but I do have a huge problem with ruck time in general.

1) The aforementioned caterpillar ruck.
2) SA style diving in - this is dangerous, reckless, and illegal. Why the hell is it not called up...
3) "holding" the ball out to the SH: this is playing the ball on the floor, ffs. It gives an unfair advantage.
4) League style lying on the ball and presenting through the legs: it removes a contest, so should be illegal

Again, enforce the laws as they are and there's no problem.

My pet annoyance is the SH putting the ball back into the ruck with their feet. If it touches anyone it is off side, and not accidental offside. If it doesn't touch anyone then surely the ball is now in play as it has been played and all the defensive players in the ruck are blocking.

Yep see my comment above. Get very frustrated as the ball is often out of the ruck when players get penalised, imo as soon as the 9/'dummy half' touches it, its fair game for the defence.