Owen Farrell

[Mellsblue]

The best bit was his assertion that all of England’s substitutions led to confusion and the second half implosion. Sadly for him, other than Genge in the 4th min, none of the replacements were brought on until Scotland were level.

I think Cole was on. But yes, his reluctance to question Owen’s performance leads him down a merry old path of bollocks

True. Scotland had only scored three second half tries, in 17 mins, before Cole was brought on.

[Banquo]

The best bit was his assertion that all of England’s substitutions led to confusion and the second half implosion. Sadly for him, other than Genge in the 4th min, none of the replacements were brought on until Scotland were level.

I think Cole was on. But yes, his reluctance to question Owen’s performance leads him down a merry old path of bollocks

True. Scotland had only scored three second half tries, in 17 mins, before Cole was brought on.

Fckin hell Mells. There you go, diving in impetuously, without looking at the bigger picture.

[Mellsblue]

I think Cole was on. But yes, his reluctance to question Owen’s performance leads him down a merry old path of bollocks

True. Scotland had only scored three second half tries, in 17 mins, before Cole was brought on.

Fckin hell Mells. There you go, diving in impetuously, without looking at the bigger picture.

I’m struggling to mentally cope with ebb and flow of this thread.

[p/d]

True. Scotland had only scored three second half tries, in 17 mins, before Cole was brought on.

Fckin hell Mells. There you go, diving in impetuously, without looking at the bigger picture.

I’m struggling to mentally cope with ebb and flow of this thread.

The Hask is donning your preferred footwear Mells

[Spiffy]

For some time Farrell has been a prime exmple of the Emperor's New Clothes syndrome with the English media, many not-so-discerning fans and the public at large. He is constantly bigged up and treated with adulation, even when he has played poorly, and the reaction to the Scotland match is really the first time we have seen any real criticism of his play. He has generally become accepted as the new Jonny, even though he does not have the goods to back that up. Hard to say how things came to this pass, but there it is. Many astute observers have been posting here for a long time on his limitations in attack, defence, distribution, tactical thinking and temperament. He can play well against lesser teams, but has looked a bit at sea when on the back foot. Jones must be beginning to wonder if he really is the best 10 (let alone captain) to lead England's progress in the RWC.

[Banquo]

For some time Farrell has been a prime exmple of the Emperor's New Clothes syndrome with the English media, many not-so-discerning fans and the public at large. He is constantly bigged up and treated with adulation, even when he has played poorly, and the reaction to the Scotland match is really the first time we have seen any real criticism of his play. He has generally become accepted as the new Jonny, even though he does not have the goods to back that up. Hard to say how things came to this pass, but there it is. Many astute observers have been posting here for a long time on his limitations in attack, defence, distribution, tactical thinking and temperament. He can play well against lesser teams, but has looked a bit at sea when on the back foot. Jones must be beginning to wonder if he really is the best 10 (let alone captain) to lead England's progress in the RWC.

Indeed, and I'm afraid the team functions in his image too much, awesome when powering forward, pants when challenged or under pressure; they weren't even really on the back foot (in the sense of under pressure up front) v Scotland, just inept with and without the ball after 30 mins.

[Sandydragon]

Even after two very significant meltdowns I n the championship, two Times writers have him as their fly half in their respective team of the tournament.

It’s a bit like the English media need to find the heir to Jonny. Farrell kicking is very good but other aspects of his play are nowhere near as good.

The emperors new cloths is an apt comparison.

[Banquo]

Even after two very significant meltdowns I n the championship, two Times writers have him as their fly half in their respective team of the tournament.

It’s a bit like the English media need to find the heir to Jonny. Farrell kicking is very good but other aspects of his play are nowhere near as good.

The emperors new cloths is an apt comparison.

which bit of his kicking is very good

[Mellsblue]

Even after two very significant meltdowns I n the championship, two Times writers have him as their fly half in their respective team of the tournament.

It’s a bit like the English media need to find the heir to Jonny. Farrell kicking is very good but other aspects of his play are nowhere near as good.

The emperors new cloths is an apt comparison.

That did make me chuckle. Ridiculous. Helped by the lack of competition, though. All the 10s have played well in fits and starts but nobody has put a comprehensive body of work together.

[Freddo]

SCW reckons Farrell has too much responsibility as captain, 10 and place kicker ...... then next to the article is his England XV for the WC, with Farrell at 10, captain and only test kicker in the team.
Though his suggestion the starting XV should have been Left on for the full 80 was even more comical

What was his team?

[Scrumhead]

Has anybody been allowed to make a case though? Since Farrell came on to the scene, successive coaches have always found ways to accommodate him, even when he plays poorly.

I’d argue that Ford has a fairly good ‘body of work’, but that’s invariably been with Farrell at 12 (hence my point about accommodating Farrell).

Cipriani has had even less of a chance. Admittedly that’s partly his own fault, but the fact that he is not in the squad at all is just ludicrous IMO given his form over the past couple of years. The one chance he had was with the same compromise solution of Farrell at 12.

For a large proportion of that time, I’d accept that Farrell was there partially as a lack of alternatives at 12. However, does anyone seriously think Ford or Cipriani would have started instead had Tuilagi or another option been fit? I certainly don’t.

Eddie’s nailed himself to the mast. Farrell is undroppable.

[Banquo]

Has anybody been allowed to make a case though? Since Farrell came on to the scene, successive coaches have always found ways to accommodate him, even when he plays poorly.

I’d argue that Ford has a fairly good ‘body of work’, but that’s invariably been with Farrell at 12 (hence my point about accommodating Farrell).

Cipriani has had even less of a chance. Admittedly that’s partly his own fault, but the fact that he is not in the squad at all is just ludicrous IMO given his form over the past couple of years. The one chance he had was with the same compromise solution of Farrell at 12.

For a large proportion of that time, I’d accept that Farrell was there partially as a lack of alternatives at 12. However, does anyone seriously think Ford or Cipriani would have started instead had Tuilagi or another option been fit? I certainly don’t.

Eddie’s nailed himself to the mast. Farrell is undroppable.

Yep. We are also in a position where we don't have any defensive organiser in the backs as far as I can tell.

[Digby]

Not sure we have one in the forwards either, and we continue to shun the drift even when it'd have given Russell some different problems. We're not the only team who have a plan solely to apply time pressure, and it's hard to argue it's not working for Wales, nonetheless I'd like some more variety in defence in addition to attack

[Mikey Brown]

Wow. Just seen Healey of all people thinks it was a card too.

[Digby]

I think you give the referee an option to show you a yellow for being so stupid, but there's plenty of more dangerous stuff the game ignores which I'd want carded before I worried about a yellow card for a block that was stupid rather than cynical to kill an attack.

That said Farrell is consistently looking to connect with the shoulders and not take impact using his arms, so I continue to wonder if he's not suffering with some injury, stingers or otherwise, and really even the connection to the shoulder put him down and in discomfort

[Insouciant]

I was thinking about the situation with the centres - having a fit Tuilagi, Slade with some game time and Joseph who was the previous incumbent of the 13 shirt. It occurs to me that the best 12 in the squad, on paper, may be Farrell. Tuilagi, Slade and Joseph are all usually 13s. It's a moot point because Eddie sees Owen playing 10, but that does cause us to squeeze two 13s into the centres. Having said that, we end up with the same problem of the ball not making it to the 13 if Owen plays 12 and Ford 10, neutering Ford's creativity.

It's all quite messy and points to the old England problem of .. we don't have a 12. At least we've sorted out a 7.

I'd quite like to see Ford, Tuilagi Joseph. Didn't Joseph used to marshal the defence? Maybe his influence would help.

[p/d]

I was thinking about the situation with the centres - having a fit Tuilagi, Slade with some game time and Joseph who was the previous incumbent of the 13 shirt. It occurs to me that the best 12 in the squad, on paper, may be Farrell. Tuilagi, Slade and Joseph are all usually 13s. It's a moot point because Eddie sees Owen playing 10, but that does cause us to squeeze two 13s into the centres. Having said that, we end up with the same problem of the ball not making it to the 13 if Owen plays 12 and Ford 10, neutering Ford's creativity.

It's all quite messy and points to the old England problem of .. we don't have a 12. At least we've sorted out a 7.

I'd quite like to see Ford, Tuilagi Joseph. Didn't Joseph used to marshal the defence? Maybe his influence would help.

Reading between the lines of Banquo's posts one gets the feeling this might have been the case.

Not that young Henry has done much wrong.

Just bring back Brad.

[Banquo]

I'd quite like to see Ford, Tuilagi Joseph. Didn't Joseph used to marshal the defence? Maybe his influence would help.

Its the obvious answer, suggested a number of times over the years. JJ would help this defence enormously.

Alternatively, Slade could play the position he has always looked most suited for .

You've missed Teo, but I'm not bothered about that.

Imo Faz is 10 or nothing; he is a very average 12.

[Banquo]

I was thinking about the situation with the centres - having a fit Tuilagi, Slade with some game time and Joseph who was the previous incumbent of the 13 shirt. It occurs to me that the best 12 in the squad, on paper, may be Farrell. Tuilagi, Slade and Joseph are all usually 13s. It's a moot point because Eddie sees Owen playing 10, but that does cause us to squeeze two 13s into the centres. Having said that, we end up with the same problem of the ball not making it to the 13 if Owen plays 12 and Ford 10, neutering Ford's creativity.

It's all quite messy and points to the old England problem of .. we don't have a 12. At least we've sorted out a 7.

I'd quite like to see Ford, Tuilagi Joseph. Didn't Joseph used to marshal the defence? Maybe his influence would help.

Reading between the lines of Banquo's posts one gets the feeling this might have been the case.

Not that young Henry has done much wrong.

Just bring back Brad.

Have i maybe overplayed my hand

Young Henry should have been playing 12 all these years imo.

[p/d]

I was thinking about the situation with the centres - having a fit Tuilagi, Slade with some game time and Joseph who was the previous incumbent of the 13 shirt. It occurs to me that the best 12 in the squad, on paper, may be Farrell. Tuilagi, Slade and Joseph are all usually 13s. It's a moot point because Eddie sees Owen playing 10, but that does cause us to squeeze two 13s into the centres. Having said that, we end up with the same problem of the ball not making it to the 13 if Owen plays 12 and Ford 10, neutering Ford's creativity.

It's all quite messy and points to the old England problem of .. we don't have a 12. At least we've sorted out a 7.

I'd quite like to see Ford, Tuilagi Joseph. Didn't Joseph used to marshal the defence? Maybe his influence would help.

Reading between the lines of Banquo's posts one gets the feeling this might have been the case.

Not that young Henry has done much wrong.

Just bring back Brad.

Have i maybe overplayed my hand

Young Henry should have been playing 12 all these years imo.

Agree about Henry at 12. Works well in tight spaces.

[Which Tyler]

Yup, Slade has always looked like a natural IC - except when wearing a shirt with 12 on the back (not that that's happened enough to really judge).
Faz is indeed an average 12, which still puts him ahead of Te'o

[Banquo]

Yup, Slade has always looked like a natural IC - except when wearing a shirt with 12 on the back (not that that's happened enough to really judge).
Faz is indeed an average 12, which still puts him ahead of Te'o

He's always changing where he is actually positioned for the Chiefs, less so for England. My point is not really about playing him at 12 now for England, more that he should always have been there (or actually 10, where I thought he'd be brilliant at one point) for the Chiefs

[Spiffy]

The Guardian XV of the tournament has Farrell at 10.
Why am I not surprised?

[Digby]

In truth the 10s like the 9s were hit and miss. And just because the France and Ireland games annoyed me because there was so little attempt to play rugby doesn’t mean those weren't strong performances from Faz in big wins

[Puja]

The Guardian XV of the tournament has Farrell at 10.
Why am I not surprised?

And Youngs at 9. Nick Evans - great player, terrible pundit.

Puja