Owen Farrell

[normanski]

Crikey, I’m glad we don’t have this kind of introspection on our 10s on the Wales board!!

People love to hate farrell and go completely overboard. It is weird yes, before you ask.

I call WUM

No, not a WUM just a bit of irony! The recent debates on the Welsh board have so often been centred on the merits of Biggar, Anscombe and Patchell. Cast your mind back to the England Wales game last year and the AIs. I wouldn’t say we quite go overboard but we get close at times.

[Stom]

People love to hate farrell and go completely overboard. It is weird yes, before you ask.

I call WUM

No, not a WUM just a bit of irony! The recent debates on the Welsh board have so often been centred on the merits of Biggar, Anscombe and Patchell. Cast your mind back to the England Wales game last year and the AIs. I wouldn’t say we quite go overboard but we get close at times.

lol, not you

Twitchy saying people love to hate Farrell, when in reality, we just hate the love he gets from commentators, etc.

He's improved a lot, but is still a long way behind what you'd want from an international 10 skill-wise.

[Oakboy]

With an objective viewpoint, Farrell has proved that he is not a good captain. The debate about his prowess as a player can continue. Next question for Jones should be, 'Is Farrell a better player when he is NOT captain?'

But, but, but the huddling skills and the shouting and backslapping?????

It's like he is getting in his creeping first before the others start to criticise.

[Cameo]

Second half I agree it got a bit scrappy in their 22 but I put that as much down to a very makeshift back three. It was also very good control and kicking from hand that kept as down there most of the half.

We will have to disagree then- I saw that as a big low for him, which was the question.

He had a big low when Scotland went 7 points ahead at the weekend. first he kicked the ball away to England who needed the ball to score any points and having done that he runs totally out of the defensive line allowing Ford to pick a hole and put momentum into England's attack that just wasn't there before

Russell isn't going to get much lower than going above and beyond to bin a first win at HQ in decades, the incompetent buffoon

Haha, you clearly havent seen Scotland try to close out a game by holding on to the ball inside their half before. Not a pretty sight so I was very happy with the kick.

[morepork]

Perhaps some cheeky site administrator could rename this board the Oween Farrell English Forum for Infallible Rugger Commentary.

[twitchy]

I call WUM

No, not a WUM just a bit of irony! The recent debates on the Welsh board have so often been centred on the merits of Biggar, Anscombe and Patchell. Cast your mind back to the England Wales game last year and the AIs. I wouldn’t say we quite go overboard but we get close at times.

lol, not you

Twitchy saying people love to hate Farrell, when in reality, we just hate the love he gets from commentators, etc.

He's improved a lot, but is still a long way behind what you'd want from an international 10 skill-wise.

Shows how much I read the wmb.

[Digby]

We will have to disagree then- I saw that as a big low for him, which was the question.

He had a big low when Scotland went 7 points ahead at the weekend. first he kicked the ball away to England who needed the ball to score any points and having done that he runs totally out of the defensive line allowing Ford to pick a hole and put momentum into England's attack that just wasn't there before

Russell isn't going to get much lower than going above and beyond to bin a first win at HQ in decades, the incompetent buffoon

Haha, you clearly havent seen Scotland try to close out a game by holding on to the ball inside their half before. Not a pretty sight so I was very happy with the kick.

When you went ahead part of me was hoping you'd hold on, but once you elected to let the restart bounce I figured it'd be business as usual. I'm cross at Finn for running out of the line though, England were trying to play out from their 22 and we barely play from anywhere so don't give it away for free like that

[Spiffy]

With an objective viewpoint, Farrell has proved that he is not a good captain. The debate about his prowess as a player can continue. Next question for Jones should be, 'Is Farrell a better player when he is NOT captain?'

Perhaps before that question Jones should be asking himself "Is Faz a better FH than George Ford?"

[TheDasher]

He was utterly gash against Wales over 80 and possibly the worst 10 I've ever seen against Scotland in the 2nd half.

Overall, I think he's an extremely fine player and has far more to offer.

He needs to calm the fuck down and stop these mental spasms. I firmly believe he has the ability to slow the game down and tighten up, but he chose not to against Scotland, he went berserk for some reason. Against Wales, he tried to replicate his Ireland performance and when it wasn't working, he didn't change it and again, when he had to calm down and just focus on control.

Eddie should take the captaincy away from him and literally tell him what to do and how to behave, rather than giving him a totally free reign to do whatever the fuck he wants all the time, which clearly doesn't work. The forwards must have been cursing him in the 2nd half vs Scotland. They were clearly knackered and he was the guy to slow it down... instead, he went mad.

Good management would be to pick Ford in the next game as he deserves a go whilst at the same time working with Farrell and teaching him how to control the pace of the game. He has some excellent attributes that we should promote and some weak ones we should improve.

It's Eddie I'm most angry at. The Ireland game and the 1st half vs Scotland were two of the finest England performances I've ever seen, because frankly, we have so much power, so much pace and ability, we could be the best in the world. A great coach would be harnessing it, which Eddie can't seem to do. Whilst it's not abundantly clear to us who our on the field leader should be, Eddie should have found him by now as it's his job. Without AWJ, Wales probably wouldn't be grand slam winners imo but if he played for England, I think we would be... it's that important.

[Banquo]

some weak ones we should improve.

He's had 7 years and 74 test caps (ffs) yet perpetually forgiven as he's improving, work in progress. He's never going to be a test class runner, an instinctive distributor, or it seems ever be able to pass well left to right. What bits are you thinking he should improve? He could calm down, he could stop flying in with his shoulder, he could certainly improve his game management, which as you were pointing out was somewhat lacking v Wales and Scotland (and other games tbh, we have squandered a fair few dominant positions)---- but how do you do that, as that's really an experience thing; maybe an old head at 12, like, er, um....(Brad Barritt is who holds his 27 year old hand at Sarries )....

Eddie cops much of it, I agree. The team is playing to his orders, and Youngs and Faz are the camp guards (phnaar); the question is whether its their limited skills that dictate the plan, or the other way round.....though likely its simply that Eddie doesnt trust English players to do anything but kick clap and be physical. Frustrating given the players we can actually field.

Maro Itoje would be my choice, but he would also have to calm the fck down, and maybe captaincy would do that.

[Puja]

I'm actually most annoyed about Youngs with the Scotland game. Scotland had their tails up, were clearly enjoying attacking with ball in hand, and yet he continued box-kicking the ball away to them. Not even contestable kicks, but "Here, have another go!" kicks.

I don't care how slow or messy the ball is, if the opposition is staging a massive comeback and looks thrilled to have possession, you do not kick it back to them. Call the forwards in, run slow ball drills, send a few crash balls up and the only kicks should be if your 10 can find touch in the oppo 22.

Puja

[Banquo]

I'm actually most annoyed about Youngs with the Scotland game. Scotland had their tails up, were clearly enjoying attacking with ball in hand, and yet he continued box-kicking the ball away to them. Not even contestable kicks, but "Here, have another go!" kicks.

I don't care how slow or messy the ball is, if the opposition is staging a massive comeback and looks thrilled to have possession, you do not kick it back to them. Call the forwards in, run slow ball drills, send a few crash balls up and the only kicks should be if your 10 can find touch in the oppo 22.

Puja

Thing is, Scotland changed their defence, with Price cutting off Faz's inside passing options, and Russell the outside options (to the point of intercepting one), and not once did Faz try and do what Ford did when he came on, actually go a little flatter and make breaks into that hole; I suspect Faz didn't actually want the ball much. But yes on Youngs too.

[Puja]

I'm actually most annoyed about Youngs with the Scotland game. Scotland had their tails up, were clearly enjoying attacking with ball in hand, and yet he continued box-kicking the ball away to them. Not even contestable kicks, but "Here, have another go!" kicks.

I don't care how slow or messy the ball is, if the opposition is staging a massive comeback and looks thrilled to have possession, you do not kick it back to them. Call the forwards in, run slow ball drills, send a few crash balls up and the only kicks should be if your 10 can find touch in the oppo 22.

Puja

Thing is, Scotland changed their defence, with Price cutting off Faz's inside passing options, and Russell the outside options (to the point of intercepting one), and not once did Faz try and do what Ford did when he came on, actually go a little flatter and make breaks into that hole; I suspect Faz didn't actually want the ball much. But yes on Youngs too.

So don't play through 10 - pretend like you're 5m from the tryline and just pick and drive round the corner for a few phases or send big runners charging in off a pop from 9.

Puja

[Oakboy]

With an objective viewpoint, Farrell has proved that he is not a good captain. The debate about his prowess as a player can continue. Next question for Jones should be, 'Is Farrell a better player when he is NOT captain?'

Perhaps before that question Jones should be asking himself "Is Faz a better FH than George Ford?"

The trouble is that if he asks himself that, he should also ask 'who is our best FH?' The answer, quite simply, is Cipriani. Ford is arguably the 2nd best.

The snag, then, is that Farrell would not be in the match day 23. I can live with that but I doubt if Jones can. Punditry would implode.

[Digby]

Ideally Cipriani would have 60 or so more caps by now and be a more convincing alternative to Farrell, as he doesn't I can't see past all those extra caps Ford has over Cipriani and thus it's Ford who's the convincing alternative.

Cipriani might be better than Ford, on ability it's close either way imo, but not close once experience is considered

[Stom]

I'm actually most annoyed about Youngs with the Scotland game. Scotland had their tails up, were clearly enjoying attacking with ball in hand, and yet he continued box-kicking the ball away to them. Not even contestable kicks, but "Here, have another go!" kicks.

I don't care how slow or messy the ball is, if the opposition is staging a massive comeback and looks thrilled to have possession, you do not kick it back to them. Call the forwards in, run slow ball drills, send a few crash balls up and the only kicks should be if your 10 can find touch in the oppo 22.

Puja

Thing is, Scotland changed their defence, with Price cutting off Faz's inside passing options, and Russell the outside options (to the point of intercepting one), and not once did Faz try and do what Ford did when he came on, actually go a little flatter and make breaks into that hole; I suspect Faz didn't actually want the ball much. But yes on Youngs too.

So don't play through 10 - pretend like you're 5m from the tryline and just pick and drive round the corner for a few phases or send big runners charging in off a pop from 9.

Puja

What? You mean change tactics? Play what's in front of you? No, no, we couldn't possibly do that...

[Banquo]

I'm actually most annoyed about Youngs with the Scotland game. Scotland had their tails up, were clearly enjoying attacking with ball in hand, and yet he continued box-kicking the ball away to them. Not even contestable kicks, but "Here, have another go!" kicks.

I don't care how slow or messy the ball is, if the opposition is staging a massive comeback and looks thrilled to have possession, you do not kick it back to them. Call the forwards in, run slow ball drills, send a few crash balls up and the only kicks should be if your 10 can find touch in the oppo 22.

Puja

Thing is, Scotland changed their defence, with Price cutting off Faz's inside passing options, and Russell the outside options (to the point of intercepting one), and not once did Faz try and do what Ford did when he came on, actually go a little flatter and make breaks into that hole; I suspect Faz didn't actually want the ball much. But yes on Youngs too.

So don't play through 10 - pretend like you're 5m from the tryline and just pick and drive round the corner for a few phases or send big runners charging in off a pop from 9.

Puja

Or do what Ford did....or here's a thing, do both! Just adapt.

[TheDasher]

some weak ones we should improve.

He's had 7 years and 74 test caps (ffs) yet perpetually forgiven as he's improving, work in progress. He's never going to be a test class runner, an instinctive distributor, or it seems ever be able to pass well left to right. What bits are you thinking he should improve? He could calm down, he could stop flying in with his shoulder, he could certainly improve his game management, which as you were pointing out was somewhat lacking v Wales and Scotland (and other games tbh, we have squandered a fair few dominant positions)---- but how do you do that, as that's really an experience thing; maybe an old head at 12, like, er, um....(Brad Barritt is who holds his 27 year old hand at Sarries )....

Eddie cops much of it, I agree. The team is playing to his orders, and Youngs and Faz are the camp guards (phnaar); the question is whether its their limited skills that dictate the plan, or the other way round.....though likely its simply that Eddie doesnt trust English players to do anything but kick clap and be physical. Frustrating given the players we can actually field.

Maro Itoje would be my choice, but he would also have to calm the fck down, and maybe captaincy would do that.

You often focus on his left to right passing. I think that's the least of his worries. His passing has not proved a hindrance to this team imo. We've frankly been unrecognisably good in attack at times of late. I don't believe his lack of running threat at 10 is an issue either, although I believe it is at 12.

Game management has been the obvious issue. I suspect he's pretty arrogant and I also suspect Jones has given him too much of a free reign. I think he needs to be told when to tighten up and to slow things down, simple as that. I think he's capable of it. If he doesn't prove it in his next few opportunities, I'd move on from him. I'd pick Ford for the next game anyway.

I don't think we'll ever agree on Farrell Banquo .

On the captaincy bit, perhaps it is Itoje, or Kruis - I'm not sure. But Eddie should be all over this issue and finding a captain of required quality if there isn't one in his squad already.

[TheDasher]

With an objective viewpoint, Farrell has proved that he is not a good captain. The debate about his prowess as a player can continue. Next question for Jones should be, 'Is Farrell a better player when he is NOT captain?'

Perhaps before that question Jones should be asking himself "Is Faz a better FH than George Ford?"

The trouble is that if he asks himself that, he should also ask 'who is our best FH?' The answer, quite simply, is Cipriani. Ford is arguably the 2nd best.

The snag, then, is that Farrell would not be in the match day 23. I can live with that but I doubt if Jones can. Punditry would implode.

Cipriani has always been my favourite as a player but that ship has sailed, not much point in mentioning him. To be fair to management, the guy's clearly not professional enough either. He's acted like child too many times to take seriously.

[Stom]

some weak ones we should improve.

He's had 7 years and 74 test caps (ffs) yet perpetually forgiven as he's improving, work in progress. He's never going to be a test class runner, an instinctive distributor, or it seems ever be able to pass well left to right. What bits are you thinking he should improve? He could calm down, he could stop flying in with his shoulder, he could certainly improve his game management, which as you were pointing out was somewhat lacking v Wales and Scotland (and other games tbh, we have squandered a fair few dominant positions)---- but how do you do that, as that's really an experience thing; maybe an old head at 12, like, er, um....(Brad Barritt is who holds his 27 year old hand at Sarries )....

Eddie cops much of it, I agree. The team is playing to his orders, and Youngs and Faz are the camp guards (phnaar); the question is whether its their limited skills that dictate the plan, or the other way round.....though likely its simply that Eddie doesnt trust English players to do anything but kick clap and be physical. Frustrating given the players we can actually field.

Maro Itoje would be my choice, but he would also have to calm the fck down, and maybe captaincy would do that.

You often focus on his left to right passing. I think that's the least of his worries. His passing has not proved a hindrance to this team imo. We've frankly been unrecognisably good in attack at times of late. I don't believe his lack of running threat at 10 is an issue either, although I believe it is at 12.

Game management has been the obvious issue. I suspect he's pretty arrogant and I also suspect Jones has given him too much of a free reign. I think he needs to be told when to tighten up and to slow things down, simple as that. I think he's capable of it. If he doesn't prove it in his next few opportunities, I'd move on from him. I'd pick Ford for the next game anyway.

I don't think we'll ever agree on Farrell Banquo .

On the captaincy bit, perhaps it is Itoje, or Kruis - I'm not sure. But Eddie should be all over this issue and finding a captain of required quality if there isn't one in his squad already.

I said it before, watch the buildup to Ford's try.



Just see how he manipulates the game...Farrell either chooses to never do that, or cannot...

[Banquo]

some weak ones we should improve.

He's had 7 years and 74 test caps (ffs) yet perpetually forgiven as he's improving, work in progress. He's never going to be a test class runner, an instinctive distributor, or it seems ever be able to pass well left to right. What bits are you thinking he should improve? He could calm down, he could stop flying in with his shoulder, he could certainly improve his game management, which as you were pointing out was somewhat lacking v Wales and Scotland (and other games tbh, we have squandered a fair few dominant positions)---- but how do you do that, as that's really an experience thing; maybe an old head at 12, like, er, um....(Brad Barritt is who holds his 27 year old hand at Sarries )....

Eddie cops much of it, I agree. The team is playing to his orders, and Youngs and Faz are the camp guards (phnaar); the question is whether its their limited skills that dictate the plan, or the other way round.....though likely its simply that Eddie doesnt trust English players to do anything but kick clap and be physical. Frustrating given the players we can actually field.

Maro Itoje would be my choice, but he would also have to calm the fck down, and maybe captaincy would do that.

I don't think we'll ever agree on Farrell Banquo .

I agree.

[Stom]

Just to elaborate: it's not just game management, but it's making sure that your options are as many as possible. Ford does this by a) having the skill to pass short and long off both hands and the footwork to get through a gap and b) the management of his troops.

[Banquo]

He's had 7 years and 74 test caps (ffs) yet perpetually forgiven as he's improving, work in progress. He's never going to be a test class runner, an instinctive distributor, or it seems ever be able to pass well left to right. What bits are you thinking he should improve? He could calm down, he could stop flying in with his shoulder, he could certainly improve his game management, which as you were pointing out was somewhat lacking v Wales and Scotland (and other games tbh, we have squandered a fair few dominant positions)---- but how do you do that, as that's really an experience thing; maybe an old head at 12, like, er, um....(Brad Barritt is who holds his 27 year old hand at Sarries )....

Eddie cops much of it, I agree. The team is playing to his orders, and Youngs and Faz are the camp guards (phnaar); the question is whether its their limited skills that dictate the plan, or the other way round.....though likely its simply that Eddie doesnt trust English players to do anything but kick clap and be physical. Frustrating given the players we can actually field.

Maro Itoje would be my choice, but he would also have to calm the fck down, and maybe captaincy would do that.

You often focus on his left to right passing. I think that's the least of his worries. His passing has not proved a hindrance to this team imo. We've frankly been unrecognisably good in attack at times of late. I don't believe his lack of running threat at 10 is an issue either, although I believe it is at 12.

Game management has been the obvious issue. I suspect he's pretty arrogant and I also suspect Jones has given him too much of a free reign. I think he needs to be told when to tighten up and to slow things down, simple as that. I think he's capable of it. If he doesn't prove it in his next few opportunities, I'd move on from him. I'd pick Ford for the next game anyway.

I don't think we'll ever agree on Farrell Banquo .

On the captaincy bit, perhaps it is Itoje, or Kruis - I'm not sure. But Eddie should be all over this issue and finding a captain of required quality if there isn't one in his squad already.

I said it before, watch the buildup to Ford's try.



Just see how he manipulates the game...Farrell either chooses to never do that, or cannot...

Curry is exceptionally good also, in what is a an excellent piece of play from England.

[Stom]

You often focus on his left to right passing. I think that's the least of his worries. His passing has not proved a hindrance to this team imo. We've frankly been unrecognisably good in attack at times of late. I don't believe his lack of running threat at 10 is an issue either, although I believe it is at 12.

Game management has been the obvious issue. I suspect he's pretty arrogant and I also suspect Jones has given him too much of a free reign. I think he needs to be told when to tighten up and to slow things down, simple as that. I think he's capable of it. If he doesn't prove it in his next few opportunities, I'd move on from him. I'd pick Ford for the next game anyway.

I don't think we'll ever agree on Farrell Banquo .

On the captaincy bit, perhaps it is Itoje, or Kruis - I'm not sure. But Eddie should be all over this issue and finding a captain of required quality if there isn't one in his squad already.

I said it before, watch the buildup to Ford's try.



Just see how he manipulates the game...Farrell either chooses to never do that, or cannot...

Curry is exceptionally good also, in what is a an excellent piece of play from England.

Yes, he is. But just notice how calm everyone is...(except May, of course).

THAT is what I want from my FH: someone who just calms everyone down and who just gets the plays going through organisation.

[Banquo]

I said it before, watch the buildup to Ford's try.



Just see how he manipulates the game...Farrell either chooses to never do that, or cannot...

Curry is exceptionally good also, in what is a an excellent piece of play from England.

Yes, he is. But just notice how calm everyone is...(except May, of course).

THAT is what I want from my FH: someone who just calms everyone down and who just gets the plays going through organisation.

Spot on, and his choice of plays is very good, and the team seem to be tuned in as well.