Brexit delayed
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Re: Brexit delayed
The public are in large part to blame for all this. Typically we free ride the process, we don't get involved in selecting or lobbying MPs, oftentime people don't even vote
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Re: Brexit delayed
True-Every nation gets the government it deserves, as someone said.Digby wrote:The public are in large part to blame for all this. Typically we free ride the process, we don't get involved in selecting or lobbying MPs, oftentime people don't even vote
- Sandydragon
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Re: Brexit delayed
Occasionally I listen to a half sane MP and think things aren’t too bad. Then Bill Cash opens his mouth.Banquo wrote:Every time I see three or more people on TV talking about Brexit, it turns into a slanging match with four different opinions.....and generally the opinions are based on a fallacy and/or a lack of understanding. MPs are the worst culprits for this- how can they look in the mirror when they don't understand the basics of their role; the quality of your average politician is appallingly low, and this has been brutally exposed in all this. How can they recover public trust after all this has been laid bare?
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Re: Brexit delayed
It is very occasional. I like Stella Creasey, and then she suggests a people's assembly.....Sandydragon wrote:Occasionally I listen to a half sane MP and think things aren’t too bad. Then Bill Cash opens his mouth.Banquo wrote:Every time I see three or more people on TV talking about Brexit, it turns into a slanging match with four different opinions.....and generally the opinions are based on a fallacy and/or a lack of understanding. MPs are the worst culprits for this- how can they look in the mirror when they don't understand the basics of their role; the quality of your average politician is appallingly low, and this has been brutally exposed in all this. How can they recover public trust after all this has been laid bare?
- Sandydragon
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Re: Brexit delayed
I think a general election is very much on the cards. I doubt that the result will change much as there is so much confusion amongst MPs at the moment but I just can’t see the government surviving this.
- Galfon
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Re: Brexit delayed
Monday, 1 April: MPs hold another set of votes on various Brexit options to see if they can agree on a way forward
Wednesday, 3 April: Potentially another round of so-called "indicative votes"
Wednesday, 10 April : Emergency summit of EU leaders to consider any UK request for further extension
Friday, 12 April: Brexit day, if UK does not seek/EU does not grant further delay
23-26 May: European Parliamentary elections
The Government has already failed; if they fail even more,
they need to step aside.
Wednesday, 3 April: Potentially another round of so-called "indicative votes"
Wednesday, 10 April : Emergency summit of EU leaders to consider any UK request for further extension
Friday, 12 April: Brexit day, if UK does not seek/EU does not grant further delay
23-26 May: European Parliamentary elections
The Government has already failed; if they fail even more,
they need to step aside.
- Which Tyler
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Re: Brexit delayed
In news that I'm sure will shock everyone, the Tories appear to split on the prospect of a snap election at the moment: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-47763034
Of course, a new GE (breaking 2 of May's promises, which is obviously so much better than breaking one by holding a 2nd ref.) Is nothing to do with what's good for the country, and would do absolutely nothing to solve the current clusterfuck. It will split her own party anlittle worse than they already are (or is she relying on the old line that when push comes to shove, conservatives fall in line?). But that it would split labour and drag them down to the same level.
I guess playing party politics is better than playing civil warfare, but... for once it's be good if an MP paid some thought to the good of the country
Of course, a new GE (breaking 2 of May's promises, which is obviously so much better than breaking one by holding a 2nd ref.) Is nothing to do with what's good for the country, and would do absolutely nothing to solve the current clusterfuck. It will split her own party anlittle worse than they already are (or is she relying on the old line that when push comes to shove, conservatives fall in line?). But that it would split labour and drag them down to the same level.
I guess playing party politics is better than playing civil warfare, but... for once it's be good if an MP paid some thought to the good of the country
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Re: Brexit delayed
I can't think of any option now which isn't bad for the country in some shape or form- to me, the least bad option is to just revoke a50 and say bollox to the leavers- they've had their chance to vote the WA through and leave the EU and chose not to. Then send all the (Remain) MPs back to their (leave) constituencies to explain why they think staying in is best.Which Tyler wrote:In news that I'm sure will shock everyone, the Tories appear to split on the prospect of a snap election at the moment: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-47763034
Of course, a new GE (breaking 2 of May's promises, which is obviously so much better than breaking one by holding a 2nd ref.) Is nothing to do with what's good for the country, and would do absolutely nothing to solve the current clusterfuck. It will split her own party anlittle worse than they already are (or is she relying on the old line that when push comes to shove, conservatives fall in line?). But that it would split labour and drag them down to the same level.
I guess playing party politics is better than playing civil warfare, but... for once it's be good if an MP paid some thought to the good of the country
Referendum- bad; GE- bad; no-deal- bad; WA plus customs union- pointless. Staying in- good.
- Mellsblue
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Re: Brexit delayed
To be replaced by?? You reckon Labour have anymore of a united front. They 3 line whipped for the indicative votes and still chaos.Galfon wrote:
The Government has already failed; if they fail even more,
they need to step aside.
Likely we’d get another hung parliament, small majority at best, and the status quo remains. Worst case scenario is that UKIP or Farage’s party get a handful of seats and we have the terrible situation that a far right party gains legitimacy at the national level.
- Puja
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Re: Brexit delayed
That ship has already sailed - they'll get 5-12 seats at the next election whenever it's held, just simply from the "BRETRAYL!!1!" loonies. There's an argument that it'd be better to have that than it would be to have the mainstream right party lurching over that way to try and attract the loony vote.Mellsblue wrote:To be replaced by?? You reckon Labour have anymore of a united front. They 3 line whipped for the indicative votes and still chaos.Galfon wrote:
The Government has already failed; if they fail even more,
they need to step aside.
Likely we’d get another hung parliament, small majority at best, and the status quo remains. Worst case scenario is that UKIP or Farage’s party get a handful of seats and we have the terrible situation that a far right party gains legitimacy at the national level.
Puja
Backist Monk
- Mellsblue
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Re: Brexit delayed
Or we just enact a Brexit that respects the referendum result and avoid the possibility completely. It’s also a good idea not to have UKIP/Farage in parliament whilst we are still negotiating our exit. Everyone has had a big enough meltdown about the DUP holding any sway. Imagine if UKIP hold the balance of power, as they do similar parties in liberal democracies very similar to ours.Puja wrote:That ship has already sailed - they'll get 5-12 seats at the next election whenever it's held, just simply from the "BRETRAYL!!1!" loonies. There's an argument that it'd be better to have that than it would be to have the mainstream right party lurching over that way to try and attract the loony vote.Mellsblue wrote:To be replaced by?? You reckon Labour have anymore of a united front. They 3 line whipped for the indicative votes and still chaos.Galfon wrote:
The Government has already failed; if they fail even more,
they need to step aside.
Likely we’d get another hung parliament, small majority at best, and the status quo remains. Worst case scenario is that UKIP or Farage’s party get a handful of seats and we have the terrible situation that a far right party gains legitimacy at the national level.
Puja
Can we please look outside of the Brexit vortex.
- Puja
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Re: Brexit delayed
Oh. Cool. How?Mellsblue wrote:Or we just enact a Brexit that respects the referendum result and avoid the possibility completely. It’s also a good idea not to have UKIP/Farage in parliament whilst we are still negotiating our exit. Everyone has had a big enough meltdown about the DUP holding any sway. Imagine if UKIP hold the balance of power, as they do similar parties in liberal democracies very similar to ours.Puja wrote:That ship has already sailed - they'll get 5-12 seats at the next election whenever it's held, just simply from the "BRETRAYL!!1!" loonies. There's an argument that it'd be better to have that than it would be to have the mainstream right party lurching over that way to try and attract the loony vote.Mellsblue wrote: To be replaced by?? You reckon Labour have anymore of a united front. They 3 line whipped for the indicative votes and still chaos.
Likely we’d get another hung parliament, small majority at best, and the status quo remains. Worst case scenario is that UKIP or Farage’s party get a handful of seats and we have the terrible situation that a far right party gains legitimacy at the national level.
Puja
Can we please look outside of the Brexit vortex.
Puja
Backist Monk
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Re: Brexit delayed
May's WA is the obvious answer.Puja wrote:Oh. Cool. How?Mellsblue wrote:Or we just enact a Brexit that respects the referendum result and avoid the possibility completely. It’s also a good idea not to have UKIP/Farage in parliament whilst we are still negotiating our exit. Everyone has had a big enough meltdown about the DUP holding any sway. Imagine if UKIP hold the balance of power, as they do similar parties in liberal democracies very similar to ours.Puja wrote:
That ship has already sailed - they'll get 5-12 seats at the next election whenever it's held, just simply from the "BRETRAYL!!1!" loonies. There's an argument that it'd be better to have that than it would be to have the mainstream right party lurching over that way to try and attract the loony vote.
Puja
Can we please look outside of the Brexit vortex.
Puja
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Re: Brexit delayed
Despite being an avid remoaner, I agree(d) that we should try and respect not only the referendum result, but the 2017 GE result which imo endorsed leave; however, the Leave camp plus reluctant respecters had that chance three times and turned it down because of an utter refusal to budge a nanometer. Leaving then negotiating a 'new customs union deal' is just unbelievably pointless, and those proposing it are being dishonest. Given the leavers/respecters have dropped the ball, parliament needs now to make the case for staying and not cop out by throwing it back to the people, who tbh haven't much of a clueMellsblue wrote:Or we just enact a Brexit that respects the referendum result and avoid the possibility completely. It’s also a good idea not to have UKIP/Farage in parliament whilst we are still negotiating our exit. Everyone has had a big enough meltdown about the DUP holding any sway. Imagine if UKIP hold the balance of power, as they do similar parties in liberal democracies very similar to ours.Puja wrote:That ship has already sailed - they'll get 5-12 seats at the next election whenever it's held, just simply from the "BRETRAYL!!1!" loonies. There's an argument that it'd be better to have that than it would be to have the mainstream right party lurching over that way to try and attract the loony vote.Mellsblue wrote: To be replaced by?? You reckon Labour have anymore of a united front. They 3 line whipped for the indicative votes and still chaos.
Likely we’d get another hung parliament, small majority at best, and the status quo remains. Worst case scenario is that UKIP or Farage’s party get a handful of seats and we have the terrible situation that a far right party gains legitimacy at the national level.
Puja
Can we please look outside of the Brexit vortex.
- Galfon
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Re: Brexit delayed
Wasn't advocating a wasteful GE, just frustration at the Executive.Mellsblue wrote:To be replaced by?? You reckon Labour have anymore of a united front. They 3 line whipped for the indicative votes and still chaos.Galfon wrote:
The Government has already failed; if they fail even more,
they need to step aside.
- Mellsblue
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Re: Brexit delayed
By the politicians growing up. Not going to happen I know, but an election won’t solve that problem.Puja wrote:Oh. Cool. How?Mellsblue wrote:Or we just enact a Brexit that respects the referendum result and avoid the possibility completely. It’s also a good idea not to have UKIP/Farage in parliament whilst we are still negotiating our exit. Everyone has had a big enough meltdown about the DUP holding any sway. Imagine if UKIP hold the balance of power, as they do similar parties in liberal democracies very similar to ours.Puja wrote:
That ship has already sailed - they'll get 5-12 seats at the next election whenever it's held, just simply from the "BRETRAYL!!1!" loonies. There's an argument that it'd be better to have that than it would be to have the mainstream right party lurching over that way to try and attract the loony vote.
Puja
Can we please look outside of the Brexit vortex.
Puja
- Mellsblue
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Re: Brexit delayed
The executive has made an absolute balls up of it but parliament as whole haven’t been any better.Galfon wrote:Wasn't advocating a wasteful GE, just frustration at the Executive.Mellsblue wrote:To be replaced by?? You reckon Labour have anymore of a united front. They 3 line whipped for the indicative votes and still chaos.Galfon wrote:
The Government has already failed; if they fail even more,
they need to step aside.
I also feel incredibly frustrated but a GE isn’t the way out of it. Sadly, if next week doesn’t yield a result, I think a second ref is. That pains me to say, as those who have refused to accept the result from day one get rewarded for chucking their toys out the pram.
Whichever way we find out of this mess, the fallout will not be pretty.
- Which Tyler
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Re: Brexit delayed
There really aren't many who never accepted the result, far far more rabid leavers who have refused to compromise.
I think you're confusing "people who accepted the result, gave it a chance, and then despaired at the fuck up it all became" with "people who never accepted the result"
Second referendum is comfortably our best shot out of this mess, but that somewhere around 5-10% chance of success. It is literally the only option that carries any chance of making things better.
I think you're confusing "people who accepted the result, gave it a chance, and then despaired at the fuck up it all became" with "people who never accepted the result"
Second referendum is comfortably our best shot out of this mess, but that somewhere around 5-10% chance of success. It is literally the only option that carries any chance of making things better.
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Re: Brexit delayed
Neither of us can prove it, but I really disagree with the highlighted stuff- I know loads of folks who simply don't accept the result,,,,,,,,,and I genuinely don't think a referendum will resolve it, save a massive win for one side (or the other).Which Tyler wrote:There really aren't many who never accepted the result, far far more rabid leavers who have refused to compromise.
I think you're confusing "people who accepted the result, gave it a chance, and then despaired at the fuck up it all became" with "people who never accepted the result"
Second referendum is comfortably our best shot out of this mess, but that somewhere around 5-10% chance of success. It is literally the only option that carries any chance of making things better.
- Mellsblue
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Re: Brexit delayed
Do you you have any evidence for this?Which Tyler wrote:There really aren't many who never accepted the result, far far more rabid leavers who have refused to compromise.
I think you're confusing "people who accepted the result, gave it a chance, and then despaired at the fuck up it all became" with "people who never accepted the result"
As for Brexiteers compromising, I’ll stick to the line that they won so shouldn’t have to compromise. It was a binary referendum, after all.
Tbh, I was just talking about MPs (if you knew this, I’d love to see your evidence).
That it has become a fuck up is on Remainers as well as Brexiteers. I doubt both sides would have become as entrenched as they have if Remain MPs had worked constructively towards enacting the result of the referendum. We’d probably be serenely sailing towards Common Market 2.0 if they had. As it is, there has been a very obvious sense that a large number were looking to overturn the result from day 1.
- Mellsblue
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Re: Brexit delayed
Agree with all of this, with the caveat that there will never be a massive win either way. Depressingly, even once politically and legally resolved, this will rumble on for years.Banquo wrote: Neither of us can prove it, but I really disagree with the highlighted stuff- I know loads of folks who simply don't accept the result,,,,,,,,,and I genuinely don't think a referendum will resolve it, save a massive win for one side (or the other).
- Sandydragon
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Re: Brexit delayed
The problem is that I think another referendum would be close, possibly to stay. All depending on the question of course.Banquo wrote:Neither of us can prove it, but I really disagree with the highlighted stuff- I know loads of folks who simply don't accept the result,,,,,,,,,and I genuinely don't think a referendum will resolve it, save a massive win for one side (or the other).Which Tyler wrote:There really aren't many who never accepted the result, far far more rabid leavers who have refused to compromise.
I think you're confusing "people who accepted the result, gave it a chance, and then despaired at the fuck up it all became" with "people who never accepted the result"
Second referendum is comfortably our best shot out of this mess, but that somewhere around 5-10% chance of success. It is literally the only option that carries any chance of making things better.
Right now it wouldn’t surprise me though if a second referendum question that advocated hard Brexit got a majority.
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Re: Brexit delayed
hence saying why I don't think a referendum will resolve it. Plus, I don't think a 2nd ref will have no-deal on the paper.Sandydragon wrote:The problem is that I think another referendum would be close, possibly to stay. All depending on the question of course.Banquo wrote:Neither of us can prove it, but I really disagree with the highlighted stuff- I know loads of folks who simply don't accept the result,,,,,,,,,and I genuinely don't think a referendum will resolve it, save a massive win for one side (or the other).Which Tyler wrote:There really aren't many who never accepted the result, far far more rabid leavers who have refused to compromise.
I think you're confusing "people who accepted the result, gave it a chance, and then despaired at the fuck up it all became" with "people who never accepted the result"
Second referendum is comfortably our best shot out of this mess, but that somewhere around 5-10% chance of success. It is literally the only option that carries any chance of making things better.
Right now it wouldn’t surprise me though if a second referendum question that advocated hard Brexit got a majority.
- morepork
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Re: Brexit delayed
Theresa May's Scissored Isle
- Mellsblue
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Re: Brexit delayed
Yep. No way this would be allowed. I think we’re heading for double whammy of a second ref with Remain and whatever the MPs decide on next week on the ballot paper, with the possibility the WA will be on there as well (not that I can see the need, Common Mrkt 2.0 is WA lite). That will drive the Brexiteers mental (rightly) and we’ll still have to go through the hell of another ref.Banquo wrote:hence saying why I don't think a referendum will resolve it. Plus, I don't think a 2nd ref will have no-deal on the paper.Sandydragon wrote:The problem is that I think another referendum would be close, possibly to stay. All depending on the question of course.Banquo wrote: Neither of us can prove it, but I really disagree with the highlighted stuff- I know loads of folks who simply don't accept the result,,,,,,,,,and I genuinely don't think a referendum will resolve it, save a massive win for one side (or the other).
Right now it wouldn’t surprise me though if a second referendum question that advocated hard Brexit got a majority.