Saracens v Munster Sat 3pm

[Mikey Brown]

Which games were these out of interest?

Nailing DG's 10 out of 10 is a very high bar (arf). I was half decent at them, but its not a simple skill. I do agree if you are no good at them, its not worth trying apart from in extremis.

I can't provide you chapter and verse unfortunately - too many knocks on the head have done for my memory being that accurate - but I remember he started the majority of the first 7-8 games of the season and I was very excited about him finally being first choice. Some of them he played all right in, some of them he was good, and some he was utterly dire, including a couple in October before the AIs (I think the ERC games?) which left me with the impression that he wasn't a viable alternative for England. Wiggy started the next few for Sarries and ended up getting into the EPS as the safe option.

Also, while I say this as someone who can't get a drop goal from any position, it's a rote skill like goal-kicking and you should expect the same kind of accuracy from in front of the posts from a professional fly-half. Watching Lopez slot two in succession vs Quins was a beautiful sight - they were never going anywhere but through the posts and it was just simple well executed drills.

I wonder how much time is spent on it in practice.

Puja

Fair enough, I don't remember him being dire per se, but thought that Wiggy had always been 1st pick in reality.

Drop goals imo don't quite into the rote skill category of place kicking, where you have a static ball and no realistic time pressure and can do the same routine over and over, albeit from different distances and angle. Dropping goals successfully means a- great technique, b- being able to adapt to the ball coming to you in different heights and at different speeds, c- executing under real (physical) pressure, coming at you from different angles. I'm sure the best ones do practice these skills, but there are many more variations to get used to- so its not always 'simple execution'. Then you have Wilko who slotted them over with either foot quite happily. Not many do it, because its difficult.

But... he’s the iceman?

[Banquo]

I can't provide you chapter and verse unfortunately - too many knocks on the head have done for my memory being that accurate - but I remember he started the majority of the first 7-8 games of the season and I was very excited about him finally being first choice. Some of them he played all right in, some of them he was good, and some he was utterly dire, including a couple in October before the AIs (I think the ERC games?) which left me with the impression that he wasn't a viable alternative for England. Wiggy started the next few for Sarries and ended up getting into the EPS as the safe option.

Also, while I say this as someone who can't get a drop goal from any position, it's a rote skill like goal-kicking and you should expect the same kind of accuracy from in front of the posts from a professional fly-half. Watching Lopez slot two in succession vs Quins was a beautiful sight - they were never going anywhere but through the posts and it was just simple well executed drills.

I wonder how much time is spent on it in practice.

Puja

Fair enough, I don't remember him being dire per se, but thought that Wiggy had always been 1st pick in reality.

Drop goals imo don't quite into the rote skill category of place kicking, where you have a static ball and no realistic time pressure and can do the same routine over and over, albeit from different distances and angle. Dropping goals successfully means a- great technique, b- being able to adapt to the ball coming to you in different heights and at different speeds, c- executing under real (physical) pressure, coming at you from different angles. I'm sure the best ones do practice these skills, but there are many more variations to get used to- so its not always 'simple execution'. Then you have Wilko who slotted them over with either foot quite happily. Not many do it, because its difficult.

But... he’s the iceman?

silly me.

[Digby]

Also Wilkinson never found a skill he couldn't practice, indeed he probably still practices more drop goals each week than any current halfback

He's not really a useful comparison for how much practice is required, almost nobody else could mentally put themselves through a Wilkinson approved practice schedule, and even if they could physically they wouldn't be able to move a day later

[Digby]

Drop goals though are bloody hard in actual game conditions unless the opposition just cannot apply pressure, or cannot be bothered to apply pressure

[Banquo]

Also Wilkinson never found a skill he couldn't practice, indeed he probably still practices more drop goals each week than any current halfback

He's not really a useful comparison for how much practice is required, almost nobody else could mentally put themselves through a Wilkinson approved practice schedule, and even if they could physically they wouldn't be able to move a day later

...hence saying, 'then you have Wilko', the exception rather than the rule. And to your other point, you can bet your bottom dollar he practiced under near match conditions (unless his team-mates rebelled )

[Digby]

As a hence it just confused me, which doesn't take much, but I read it the best ones practice and then you have Jonny so on the one hand I ignored the hence and on the other I wanted anyone to note he's a poor comparative example anyway

[Puja]

Drop goals imo don't quite into the rote skill category of place kicking, where you have a static ball and no realistic time pressure and can do the same routine over and over, albeit from different distances and angle. Dropping goals successfully means a- great technique, b- being able to adapt to the ball coming to you in different heights and at different speeds, c- executing under real (physical) pressure, coming at you from different angles. I'm sure the best ones do practice these skills, but there are many more variations to get used to- so its not always 'simple execution'. Then you have Wilko who slotted them over with either foot quite happily. Not many do it, because its difficult.

Very much akin to making a sharp accurate pass off your left under pressu... oh, right. Farrell

I shan't be moved on this - it's a live skill under pressure sure, but so's a bomb or a box kick or a grubber and we wouldn't accept those regularly not going near the target with a shrug of the shoulders and an "It's a hard skill". Like I said, Lopez can knock them over for fun, and he's not Jonny Wilkinson. We've just taken all emphasis off it in England and, as such all our halves are crap with the possible exception of Freddie Burns.


Puja

[Banquo]

Drop goals imo don't quite into the rote skill category of place kicking, where you have a static ball and no realistic time pressure and can do the same routine over and over, albeit from different distances and angle. Dropping goals successfully means a- great technique, b- being able to adapt to the ball coming to you in different heights and at different speeds, c- executing under real (physical) pressure, coming at you from different angles. I'm sure the best ones do practice these skills, but there are many more variations to get used to- so its not always 'simple execution'. Then you have Wilko who slotted them over with either foot quite happily. Not many do it, because its difficult.

Very much akin to making a sharp accurate pass off your left under pressu... oh, right. Farrell

I shan't be moved on this - it's a live skill under pressure sure, but so's a bomb or a box kick or a grubber and we wouldn't accept those regularly not going near the target with a shrug of the shoulders and an "It's a hard skill". Like I said, Lopez can knock them over for fun, and he's not Jonny Wilkinson. We've just taken all emphasis off it in England and, as such all our halves are crap with the possible exception of Freddie Burns.


Puja

I'm not shrugging my shoulders, as I don't with any of the others. But its still a hard skill, and many players choose to focus on developing other skills, that they gauge to be more useful over time. Very few countries have it in their armoury for better or worse.

[morepork]

How very English to have the thread descend into bickering over drop goals.


I missed the attempt in question, but was it when Saracens were ahead on points and pressing the advantage whilst in possession and knocking on the opposition line? You take speculative little kicks on attack away from you know who and there seems to be very little else in the bag of tricks.

[Mellsblue]

How very English to have the thread descend into bickering over drop goals.
.

How true......I blame the ref.

[morepork]

John-Wayne Barnes.

[Digby]

Blimey, bringing racism and homophobia into it there pilgrim, NZ for the win (also Carter executed a lovely drop goal in the last WC final when a SBW inspired Australia were coming back into it)

[Puja]

How very English to have the thread descend into bickering over drop goals.


I missed the attempt in question, but was it when Saracens were ahead on points and pressing the advantage whilst in possession and knocking on the opposition line? You take speculative little kicks on attack away from you know who and there seems to be very little else in the bag of tricks.

That's kinda where we came in - it's not particularly English anymore as we've got nobody who can actually convert one. Gods help us if we need one in the RWC.

IIRC, it was early in the game and Sarries were 3-0 up. Very promising attack, quick ball, and it ended up with 22 drop-out.

Puja

[Digby]

Was there any chat anywhere about the vagaries (and perhaps pointlessness of) the TMO after allowing Munster to kick the ball out of the Sarries scrum?

I don't have any sympathy for Sarries, instead of playing the ball they were waiting for a penalty so bollocks to them, but what's the point of the TMO if that try stands?