Brexit delayed

[Which Tyler]

Ouch:

[Mellsblue]

Diggers, I get it, you think it's a terrible idea etc etc but I'm not really defending the concept of leaving, other than there are some upsides, albeit limited ones and nowhere near in quality or quantity of staying, and that a halfway house is the worst of both worlds.

It's more this idea that you must be thick, inbred or racist to want to leave, or that it is all the ERG or the govts/Mays fault, or that it will inevitably lead to us being America/Singapore light, or that Brexiteers are Nazis at worst and racists at best (and yes I'd agree that a decent number of Leave voters are just racists/c**nts) or that it's ok to have a running total of deaths and celebrate when it theoretically meant that Remain would win a second ref or the premis that there were and are no lies coming from the Remain side. I could go on.

When I discuss Brexit in situations where most people are overwhelmingly ardent Leavers, I defend Remainers as staunchly from their insults and accusations as I defend Leave voters on here and I point the finger of blame at ardent Brexiteer MPs as much as I point the finger of blame at ardent Remainer MPs whilst on here. I've had my fair share of rows with ERG supporters whilst at Conservative meetings. I also have great discussions with many people who just want to get on with it whilst understanding that a second ref will solve nothing and no deal Brexit is madness.

In short, I think 30% of the country have been swallowed down the Brexit vortex and the rest of us have to watch you trade insults whilst nothing is achieved.

Just think, if we'd all accepted the referendum result we might out of the EU and negotiating the closest trade deal in the world, have continued joint initiatives, such as Erasmus, whilst also dealing with the myriad of other issues parliament should be dealing with, and the changes to everyday life would be almost imperceptible.

Here's the thing, you state very simply we need to accept the referendum and that a halfway house is the worst of both worlds, which I disagree with, if I accept the referendum it's with the conclusion we should remain in the single market and customs union to minimise the damage of what is a very stupid decision, and technically I'm fine with that as we'd still be leaving the EU. So accepting the referendum is a very different thing depending on one's biases

Why you want to defend someone who's been busy being so stupid (and/or racist) I don't know, but if that's how you get your kicks so be it.

You were doing so well to sound rational and happy to debate in good faith and then you had to put in that last sentence to ruin it.
It’s my big worry of politics at the moment. People aren’t happy to accept that people have a valid reason to have a different opinion. It must be because they’re thick, racist, evil etc etc. Civil political discourse has almost disappeared.

[Banquo]

Diggers, I get it, you think it's a terrible idea etc etc but I'm not really defending the concept of leaving, other than there are some upsides, albeit limited ones and nowhere near in quality or quantity of staying, and that a halfway house is the worst of both worlds.

It's more this idea that you must be thick, inbred or racist to want to leave, or that it is all the ERG or the govts/Mays fault, or that it will inevitably lead to us being America/Singapore light, or that Brexiteers are Nazis at worst and racists at best (and yes I'd agree that a decent number of Leave voters are just racists/c**nts) or that it's ok to have a running total of deaths and celebrate when it theoretically meant that Remain would win a second ref or the premis that there were and are no lies coming from the Remain side. I could go on.

When I discuss Brexit in situations where most people are overwhelmingly ardent Leavers, I defend Remainers as staunchly from their insults and accusations as I defend Leave voters on here and I point the finger of blame at ardent Brexiteer MPs as much as I point the finger of blame at ardent Remainer MPs whilst on here. I've had my fair share of rows with ERG supporters whilst at Conservative meetings. I also have great discussions with many people who just want to get on with it whilst understanding that a second ref will solve nothing and no deal Brexit is madness.

In short, I think 30% of the country have been swallowed down the Brexit vortex and the rest of us have to watch you trade insults whilst nothing is achieved.

Just think, if we'd all accepted the referendum result we might out of the EU and negotiating the closest trade deal in the world, have continued joint initiatives, such as Erasmus, whilst also dealing with the myriad of other issues parliament should be dealing with, and the changes to everyday life would be almost imperceptible.

Here's the thing, you state very simply we need to accept the referendum and that a halfway house is the worst of both worlds, which I disagree with, if I accept the referendum it's with the conclusion we should remain in the single market and customs union to minimise the damage of what is a very stupid decision, and technically I'm fine with that as we'd still be leaving the EU. So accepting the referendum is a very different thing depending on one's biases

Why you want to defend someone who's been busy being so stupid (and/or racist) I don't know, but if that's how you get your kicks so be it.

You were doing so well to sound rational and happy to debate in good faith and then you had to put in that last sentence to ruin it.
It’s my big worry of politics at the moment. People aren’t happy to accept that people have a valid reason to have a different opinion. It must be because they’re thick, racist, evil etc etc. Civil political discourse has almost disappeared.

Moderate twat.

[Digby]

Diggers, I get it, you think it's a terrible idea etc etc but I'm not really defending the concept of leaving, other than there are some upsides, albeit limited ones and nowhere near in quality or quantity of staying, and that a halfway house is the worst of both worlds.

It's more this idea that you must be thick, inbred or racist to want to leave, or that it is all the ERG or the govts/Mays fault, or that it will inevitably lead to us being America/Singapore light, or that Brexiteers are Nazis at worst and racists at best (and yes I'd agree that a decent number of Leave voters are just racists/c**nts) or that it's ok to have a running total of deaths and celebrate when it theoretically meant that Remain would win a second ref or the premis that there were and are no lies coming from the Remain side. I could go on.

When I discuss Brexit in situations where most people are overwhelmingly ardent Leavers, I defend Remainers as staunchly from their insults and accusations as I defend Leave voters on here and I point the finger of blame at ardent Brexiteer MPs as much as I point the finger of blame at ardent Remainer MPs whilst on here. I've had my fair share of rows with ERG supporters whilst at Conservative meetings. I also have great discussions with many people who just want to get on with it whilst understanding that a second ref will solve nothing and no deal Brexit is madness.

In short, I think 30% of the country have been swallowed down the Brexit vortex and the rest of us have to watch you trade insults whilst nothing is achieved.

Just think, if we'd all accepted the referendum result we might out of the EU and negotiating the closest trade deal in the world, have continued joint initiatives, such as Erasmus, whilst also dealing with the myriad of other issues parliament should be dealing with, and the changes to everyday life would be almost imperceptible.

Here's the thing, you state very simply we need to accept the referendum and that a halfway house is the worst of both worlds, which I disagree with, if I accept the referendum it's with the conclusion we should remain in the single market and customs union to minimise the damage of what is a very stupid decision, and technically I'm fine with that as we'd still be leaving the EU. So accepting the referendum is a very different thing depending on one's biases

Why you want to defend someone who's been busy being so stupid (and/or racist) I don't know, but if that's how you get your kicks so be it.

You were doing so well to sound rational and happy to debate in good faith and then you had to put in that last sentence to ruin it.
It’s my big worry of politics at the moment. People aren’t happy to accept that people have a valid reason to have a different opinion. It must be because they’re thick, racist, evil etc etc. Civil political discourse has almost disappeared.

I'm not saying people can't have a different opinion, nor we should refuse to act on decisions that win in votes even if they're stupid. Only that they can't expect people not to call them stupid whilst they're being stupid. Democracy is no defence against stupidity, but it's still important that democracy win out unless someone has a better idea than democracy, and heaven knows I'm not capable of a good idea.

Brexit doesn't have valid reasons, it's supposed answers are no answers, and they're certainly no answer to the problems typically listed as to why many voted for Brexit. There will of course be pockets within society that benefit whichever way we might have gone, so comments as to the good or bad are intended to be taken as across society as a whole.

Also is this really a place for a good faith debate as I tend to post simply to amuse myself rather than with any loftier ambition?

[Digby]

Ouch:

Like Farage he's capable of raising some valid concerns, like Farage his solutions can far too easily be placed in a column marked insane/abhorrent

[Puja]

Ouch:

Like Farage he's capable of raising some valid concerns, like Farage his solutions can far too easily be placed in a column marked insane/abhorrent

He's not wrong here though. Getting fed up of people feeling sad for May - yes, she inherited a shit situation, but no-one forced her into being leader (and she did a fair job stitching up her competitors), and she's had three years leading a country. Even though she's lost her job, she's never going to be poor or short of a job opportunity, which is more than can be said for a lot of people her decisions have harmed. And it's hardly as though she's undeserving of the sack - she has thoroughly earned it and under usual circumstances would have had it over a year ago.

A set of performative tears shouldn't make people feel better for her - she's not an unfortunate victim of fate or circumstances who deserves pity.

Puja

[Digby]

Exciting to see the contenders for the leadership of the Tory party don't even agree on what Brexit means, other than Brexit, and that somehow (magic?) they'll unite the country.

[Mikey Brown]

Ouch:

Like Farage he's capable of raising some valid concerns, like Farage his solutions can far too easily be placed in a column marked insane/abhorrent

Jones? I don’t like him but he’s correct here, not sure how he compares to Farage at all.

Puja is right. May is a c*nt. I think that’s roughly what he was saying anyway.

[Banquo]

Ouch:

Like Farage he's capable of raising some valid concerns, like Farage his solutions can far too easily be placed in a column marked insane/abhorrent

Jones? I don’t like him but he’s correct here, not sure how he compares to Farage at all.

Puja is right. May is a c*nt. I think that’s roughly what he was saying anyway.

I assume in the sense that the diagnosis is correct, but the solution wrong.

[Digby]

Like Farage he's capable of raising some valid concerns, like Farage his solutions can far too easily be placed in a column marked insane/abhorrent

Jones? I don’t like him but he’s correct here, not sure how he compares to Farage at all.

Puja is right. May is a c*nt. I think that’s roughly what he was saying anyway.

I assume in the sense that the diagnosis is correct, but the solution wrong.

Yep, they can both raise valid complaints

[Which Tyler]

Halfway-ish. 182/373

Brx: 31.0%
LD: 20.9%
Lab: 14.6%
Grn: 12.3%
Con: 8.8%
SNP+PC: 3.8%


Pro-Brexit: 3.92M
Anti-Brexit: 4.66M

[Puja]

If one were looking at the UK's demand for a "No Deal" Brexit vs any other option, it appears to be 35% for and 65% against. No doubt the media will give Farage and his ilk as much time as they want to carp about how this shows an overwhelming mandate for No Deal.

Greens are doing well. 5 MEPs already with an inevitable one in the SW still to come. Not bad to've doubled their representation when 75% of the media coverage that was given to them was "Don't vote Green, tactically vote Lib Dem to stop Brexit."

Puja

[Which Tyler]

356/373


Brx: 31.6%
LD: 20.3%
Lab: 14.1%
Grn: 12.1%
Con: 9.1%
SNP+PC: 4.6%


Leave: 5.8M
Remain: 6.7M



MEPs (waiting for Scotland & NI), 2014 => 2019

Farage's ego, 23 => 28
Lib Dem, 1 => 15
Labour, 18 => 10
Green, 3 => 7
Conservative, 18 => 3
Plaid, 1 => 1

9 to be declared

[Mellsblue]

If one were looking at the UK's demand for a "No Deal" Brexit vs any other option, it appears to be 35% for and 65% against. No doubt the media will give Farage and his ilk as much time as they want to carp about how this shows an overwhelming mandate for No Deal.

Greens are doing well. 5 MEPs already with an inevitable one in the SW still to come. Not bad to've doubled their representation when 75% of the media coverage that was given to them was "Don't vote Green, tactically vote Lib Dem to stop Brexit."

Puja

Coverage up here, including from the Lib Dem party, was to vote Green.

[Sandydragon]

Farage is claiming his triumph to be clear indications of the UK electorates willingness to leave on no deal. Yet more votes for parties with remain policies.

Real shame all the media will focus on is Farage.

[Mellsblue]

356/373


Brx: 31.6%
LD: 20.3%
Lab: 14.1%
Grn: 12.1%
Con: 9.1%
SNP+PC: 4.6%


Leave: 5.8M
Remain: 6.7M



MEPs (waiting for Scotland & NI), 2014 => 2019

Farage's ego, 23 => 28
Lib Dem, 1 => 15
Labour, 18 => 10
Green, 3 => 7
Conservative, 18 => 3
Plaid, 1 => 1

9 to be declared

Labour aren’t Remain. It would be more accurate to put Remain + Labour and Leave + Con, as per your original source, for those with a second ref as a policy. So, the result does give credence to the idea of a second ref but, given those figures, it’ll be close, yet again.
BBC’s breakdowns:

[Mellsblue]

Farage is claiming his triumph to be clear indications of the UK electorates willingness to leave on no deal. Yet more votes for parties with remain policies.

Real shame all the media will focus on is Farage.

Yep. As per usual, it’s been spun every which way depending on your viewpoint.

Are you counting Labour as Remain, too?

[Which Tyler]

Labour aren’t Remain.

That might, possibly be why didn't count labour as a remain party? Although, TBH, I did do exactly what you suggest I should have done, so...
Oh, and my original source had no such thing at the time of my postings.

FTR, I played with putting con and lab in a group of their own for wanting a negotiated deal, but... It's just too complicated to boil either party down to any position on Brexit. The leaderships want a negotiated departure, but neither parliamentary parties do, and I think I'm right in saying that neither set of party members do.
IMO, if you count Con as pro-Brexit, you have to count labour as pro-Remain, and accept that both are wrong and water down the conclusions consequently, I left them out of that calculation.

[Sandydragon]

Farage is claiming his triumph to be clear indications of the UK electorates willingness to leave on no deal. Yet more votes for parties with remain policies.

Real shame all the media will focus on is Farage.

Yep. As per usual, it’s been spun every which way depending on your viewpoint.

Are you counting Labour as Remain, too?

No. I was viewing it as a third for hard Brexit, a bit more for remain and others undecided or for softish Brexit. Overall it’s still very close, but the idea that all leavers votes for hard Brexit can be disputed.

[Which Tyler]

6 million people sign a petition to revoke art50 "nothing to see here"
5.8 million people vote for Hard Brexit (whilst a million more vote for RevoteOrRevoke) "we MUST be included at the negotiating table" "Huge vote for hardest of hard Brexits" etc etc

[Sandydragon]

6 million people sign a petition to revoke art50 "nothing to see here"
5.8 million people vote for Hard Brexit (whilst a million more vote for RevoteOrRevoke) "we MUST be included at the negotiating table" "Huge vote for hardest of hard Brexits" etc etc

Good point.

[Mellsblue]

6 million people sign a petition to revoke art50 "nothing to see here"
5.8 million people vote for Hard Brexit (whilst a million more vote for RevoteOrRevoke) "we MUST be included at the negotiating table" "Huge vote for hardest of hard Brexits" etc etc

Good point.

It is a good point, but the Remain side have spun it the other way just as hard. Yet another example of the extremes Brexit has led to.

[Mellsblue]

Farage is claiming his triumph to be clear indications of the UK electorates willingness to leave on no deal. Yet more votes for parties with remain policies.

Real shame all the media will focus on is Farage.

Yep. As per usual, it’s been spun every which way depending on your viewpoint.

Are you counting Labour as Remain, too?

No. I was viewing it as a third for hard Brexit, a bit more for remain and others undecided or for softish Brexit. Overall it’s still very close, but the idea that all leavers votes for hard Brexit can be disputed.

Yep. Farage’s claims are nonsense.

[Banquo]

How you read it depends on what you personally want to happen next. Its a mess, that will take an awful long time to resolve.

If we had a 'people's vote' what would the question now be?

[Mellsblue]

Labour aren’t Remain.

That might, possibly be why didn't count labour as a remain party? Although, TBH, I did do exactly what you suggest I should have done, so...
Oh, and my original source had no such thing at the time of my postings.

FTR, I played with putting con and lab in a group of their own for wanting a negotiated deal, but... It's just too complicated to boil either party down to any position on Brexit. The leaderships want a negotiated departure, but neither parliamentary parties do, and I think I'm right in saying that neither set of party members do.
IMO, if you count Con as pro-Brexit, you have to count labour as pro-Remain, and accept that both are wrong and water down the conclusions consequently, I left them out of that calculation.

I’ve not sat here doing any in depth maths, but going by your figs I’m struggling to see how LD + Gr + plus the nationalists is greater than BP + Con. I honestly don’t see how you could say Lab are pro-Remain. I certainly can’t see the logic of ‘if you count Con as pro-Brexit, you have to count labour as pro-Remain’. The Cons are unashamedly pro-Brexit whilst Labour ran on a pro-Brexit manifesto, have a pro-Brexit leader and have a second ref as their last resort.