U20 JWC Squad

[Digby]

As ever I don't think it much matters if the team is that good, you're really only after 3 or 4 players who'll push to play well at the highest level

[Scrumhead]

Yeah - there was an interesting article in TRP this week about succession from the U20 sides and it’s not typically been more than a handful.

Ironically, this group could perform poorly as a team but still end up producing the highest amount of future internationals. I think there’s a good few in this group that will make it.

[Stom]

Yeah - there was an interesting article in TRP this week about succession from the U20 sides and it’s not typically been more than a handful.

Ironically, this group could perform poorly as a team but still end up producing the highest amount of future internationals. I think there’s a good few in this group that will make it.

Really?

I mean, Barbeary is a year up and Smith isn't in the squad. So from the rest...Kpoku, Hill, Willis, Redpath?, Dingwall?, Sleighthome?

I'm not really sure about many of them. Smith, Hill and Willis look destined for England, Willis could well get there, and Barbeary could well do so...Kpoku may well. The others? They've got a lot of competition.

[Tigersman]

Heyes
Kpoku
Hill
Willis (If he mainly plays 8, if he gets moved to 6 or 7 then I don't think he would).
Redpath
Sleigtholme

Would be my bet.

Got some very good U18's coming up.

[Scrumhead]

Heyes
Kpoku
Hill
Willis (If he mainly plays 8, if he gets moved to 6 or 7 then I don't think he would).
Redpath
Sleigtholme

Would be my bet.

Got some very good U18's coming up.

Yeah. My list would be similar with Hinkley, Dingwall, Seabrook and De Glanville as potential additions.

[Tigersman]

I don't really rate Seabrook TBH.
Hinkley looks very good but shame he has the two currys, Underhill and potentially Sam simmonds and Willis all yet to reach their primes.

Dingwall I reckon could be pinched by Scotland.

[Scrumhead]

You’re probably right on Dingwall.

I don’t see him getting past the other options at 13, particularly considering Ollie Lawrence could actually be the best of the bunch (he’s just not in the squad due to injury). Slade will still be around for 2023 and Marchant should definitely be in the mix, so I don’t see an obvious route for him.

[fivepointer]

Just had a quick look at squads from previous seasons.
The 2015 final line up was Genge, Walker, Hill, Witty, Ewels, Ludlam, Owen, Chisholm, Mitchell, Jennings, Perkins, Clark, Tompkins, Packman, Morris
The 2 props and Ewels are the only capped players from that team. Several of the team have made no impression in the Premiership, let alone be England contenders.
In 2016 we had Boyce, Singleton, Walker, South, Taylor, Nott, Evans, Chick, Green, Mallinder, Gallagher, Williams, Marchant, Aspland-Robinson, Malins.
Of that group i think only Singleton has been capped.
The 2017 squad has only one capped player, Mercer, plus Earl who at least is on the England radar.
Last years squad did contain Hill, who has been capped.
Its not a great conversion rate, though its quite possible some players from the last few years will get capped.
It does show that promise at 19/20 is not always developed into an England player, or a regular Premiership player.
This years group does contain a lot of talent. Whether that translates into international caps is something else entirely.

[Scrumhead]

Yep. That’s what I was getting at when I said that this group might achieve less as a team than they go on to individually.

TRP actually did an article last Sunday around the conversion rate and it not being particularly strong given our success in this competition.

I guess it depends on how quickly we’re judging success though. I think a 3-4 year window is fair, but anything less is probably unrealistic for most players.

For example, the 2016 crop is a very good group. It hasn’t produced a single cap yet, but it could/should result in a good few. Singleton hasn’t actually been capped yet, but will be sooner rather than later. I would be confident that Williams, Marchant and Malins will pick up caps post RWC and Mallinder probably would have done so already but for his injury. Also worth noting that Will Stuart and Jack Willis were on the bench too and I’d be very confident they’ll both be capped. 7 players would be a good return.

As for the 2017 group, Tom Curry, Cokanasiga, Isiekwe and Maunder were all taken on the Argentina tour rather than going to the JWC. All of whom have now been capped and 3/4 are regulars in the full squad.

[Stom]

Just had a quick look at squads from previous seasons.
The 2015 final line up was Genge, Walker, Hill, Witty, Ewels, Ludlam, Owen, Chisholm, Mitchell, Jennings, Perkins, Clark, Tompkins, Packman, Morris
The 2 props and Ewels are the only capped players from that team. Several of the team have made no impression in the Premiership, let alone be England contenders.
In 2016 we had Boyce, Singleton, Walker, South, Taylor, Nott, Evans, Chick, Green, Mallinder, Gallagher, Williams, Marchant, Aspland-Robinson, Malins.
Of that group i think only Singleton has been capped.
The 2017 squad has only one capped player, Mercer, plus Earl who at least is on the England radar.
Last years squad did contain Hill, who has been capped.
Its not a great conversion rate, though its quite possible some players from the last few years will get capped.
It does show that promise at 19/20 is not always developed into an England player, or a regular Premiership player.
This years group does contain a lot of talent. Whether that translates into international caps is something else entirely.

It does generally take a few years to arrive to the England team, mind.

2014 had Hill, Itoje, Ewels, Earle, plus Moriarty.
2013 had Hepburn, LCD, Clifford, Slade, Watson and Nowell, plus Moriarty.
2012 was a poor year, but you can add Sinckler, Robson, Yarde, BillyV and Spencer to the list, plus Sisi (Clifford, LCD, Slade were also there)
2011 had Mako, Thomas, Launch, Kvesic, Ford, Wade, Farrell, Daly, Collier.

And I'm only counting the 23 from the final (or 7th place game for 2012). It just takes time. I imagine some of the 2014 group will make their debuts soon, ditto 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018. There will be exceptional talents, like Ford, Farrell, Itoje, Genge, Hill and Smith, but otherwise it does take time.

[Scrumhead]

It also depends upon the makeup of the senior squad too. Clearly ageing squads need to be refreshed more quickly, but as our squad is mostly pretty young, we haven’t really had that issue.

[Mellsblue]

It also depends upon the makeup of the senior squad too. Clearly ageing squads need to be refreshed more quickly, but as our squad is mostly pretty young, we haven’t really had that issue.

Very true. For example, Marchant is very unlucky to have Joseph, Slade and Tuilagi ahead of him. If those three go down injured, nobody is thinking ‘oh, crap’. They’re thinking it’ll be good to give Marchant a run.

[Digby]

I have negative thoughts the moment Tuilagi isn't available to England

[Peat]

It also depends upon the makeup of the senior squad too. Clearly ageing squads need to be refreshed more quickly, but as our squad is mostly pretty young, we haven’t really had that issue.

They are playing a brutal amount of rugby with some staggering injury counts though. I feel like we're going to see quite a few players burn out quicker than they should have.

[fivepointer]

Barbeary gets 5 week ban so is out of the competition. Great pity for him and a blow to the team.

[Banquo]

It also depends upon the makeup of the senior squad too. Clearly ageing squads need to be refreshed more quickly, but as our squad is mostly pretty young, we haven’t really had that issue.

They are playing a brutal amount of rugby with some staggering injury counts though. I feel like we're going to see quite a few players burn out quicker than they should have.

I'm not sure that's even a question. The real question is the appetite for fixing it, which seems zero in English Rugby.

[Mellsblue]

I like the idea CVC have mooted of fewer but bigger matches/events. The issue with that is stadia and filling them but it’s a step in the right direction with regards thinking.

[Peej]

5 weeks seems a bit harsh. The inconsistency strikes again.

Willis has certainly gotten a fair bit bigger, even in the last year. I'm sure he's seen as an 8 at Wasps.

[Scrumhead]

Barbeary gets 5 week ban so is out of the competition. Great pity for him and a blow to the team.

He’s young enough for it not to matter that much, but it was f*cking stupid and he can’t really complain about the ban.

Even after his mad moment, he made no obvious effort to check on the player either. He has huge potential but he needs to learn from this and stamp out that sh*tty attitude.

[twitchy]

What did he do?

[Doorzetbornandbred]

What did he do?

If it had been in WWE it would have been referred to as the "Reverse Tombstone"...

[Mellsblue]

What did he do?

Go to 3mins40ish on the video in this link:

https://www.rugbydump.com/news/englands ... ing-round/

[Tigersman]

5 weeks sounds about right for that IMO.

[fivepointer]

All change for the Italy game which was to be expected.

15. Josh Hodge (Newcastle Falcons)
14. Tom Seabrook (Gloucester Rugby)
13. Connor Doherty (Sale Sharks)
12. Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints) - captain
11. Arron Reed (Sale Sharks)
10. Tom De Glanville (Bath Rugby)
9. Sam Maunder (Exeter Chiefs)
1. Kai Owen (Worcester Warriors)
2. Will Capon (Bristol Bears)
3, Alfie Petch (Exeter Chiefs)
4. Richard Capstick (Exeter Chiefs)
5. Alex Coles (Northampton Saints)
6. Josh Basham (Newcastle Falcons)
7. Aaron Hinkley (Gloucester Rugby)
8. Rusiate Tuima (Exeter Chiefs)

Replacements
16. Nic Dolly (Sale Sharks)
17. James Kenny (Exeter Chiefs)
18. Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers)
19. Olly Adkins (Gloucester Rugby)
20. Joel Kpoku (Saracens)
21. Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors)
22. Tom Willis (Wasps Rugby)
23. Ollie Fox (Yorkshire Carnegie)
24. Luke James (Sale Sharks)
25. Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks)
26. Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton Saints)

[Digby]

Not that it excuses the action, but what was Green 7 trying to do? I've seen similar actions from terriers that haven't been fixed trying to rub one out on a convenient leg