World Cup Training Squad

[Scrumhead]

I think I saw somewhere that a 45-man training squad is announced on the 25th June. I've seen a few bits of speculation, including some strange ones ...

Based upon recent squads, my take on the contenders is as follows:

1. M. Vunipola / E. Genge / B. Moon / A. Hepburn / J. Marler*
2. J. George / D. Hartley / L. Cowan-Dickie / J. Singleton
3. K. Sinckler / H. Williams / D. Cole
4. M. Itoje / C. Lawes / N. Isiekwe
5. G. Kruis / J. Launchbury / C. Ewels
6. M. Wilson / C. Robshaw / B. Shields
7. T. Curry / S. Underhill / J. Clifford
8. B. Vunipola / N. Hughes / Z. Mercer / B. Morgan
9. B. Youngs / D. Care / B. Spencer / R. Wigglesworth / D. Robson*
10. O. Farrell / G. Ford / D. Cipriani / M. Smith
11. J. May / J. Cokanasiga / O. Thorley
12. M. Tuilagi / B. Te'o / O. Devoto / P. Francis
13. H. Slade / J. Joseph / A. Lozowski
14. A. Watson / J. Nowell* / C. Ashton / R. McConnochie
15. E. Daly / M. Brown

I might have missed one or two, but there's only 50 or so names there and a couple are touch on go on injury (Robson and Nowell in particular), so I'd expect this to be pretty close. Marler is obviously subject to him making a huge u-turn (which doesn't look likely).

I've put the least likely (IMO) in italics.

[Puja]

Generally, I don't think you'd find many people disagreeing with the main picks there. I'd say Marchant over Lozowski for the third 13 in the training squad and I'd have Dombrandt and BCurry in over Mercer and Clifford. I don't know any of those three will trouble the 31-man final squad, but they stand a better chance IMO.

Puja

ETA. Also I'd have Te'o nowhere near the squad at all, but we're talking realistic expectations here.

[fivepointer]

I'd add in Schonert as the 4th choice TH. The rest of the front 5 pick themselves, though I cant see Marler making himself available.
In the back row I dont think Clifford will be selected. Dombrandt, or possibly Earl, seem likelier selections.
Cant see Francis making it, but Marchant has got to be in with a very good chance.
And i'd be very surprised if Ashton isnt picked.

[Puja]

I'd add in Schonert as the 4th choice TH. The rest of the front 5 pick themselves, though I cant see Marler making himself available.
In the back row I dont think Clifford will be selected. Dombrandt, or possibly Earl, seem likelier selections.
Cant see Francis making it, but Marchant has got to be in with a very good chance.
And i'd be very surprised if Ashton isnt picked.

While I don't think he has a chance in hell of making it, I personally would have Brookes as the 4th TH. He's looked to be coming back to some kind of form towards the end of the season and he's got the advantage of having been tempered at international level.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Generally, I don't think you'd find many people disagreeing with the main picks there. I'd say Marchant over Lozowski for the third 13 in the training squad and I'd have Dombrandt and BCurry in over Mercer and Clifford. I don't know any of those three will trouble the 31-man final squad, but they stand a better chance IMO.

Puja

ETA. Also I'd have Te'o nowhere near the squad at all, but we're talking realistic expectations here.

So would I, but I based the players I listed solely on squads Eddie has picked in the last 12mths or so.

Ashton is one I forgot.

[Puja]

Generally, I don't think you'd find many people disagreeing with the main picks there. I'd say Marchant over Lozowski for the third 13 in the training squad and I'd have Dombrandt and BCurry in over Mercer and Clifford. I don't know any of those three will trouble the 31-man final squad, but they stand a better chance IMO.

Puja

ETA. Also I'd have Te'o nowhere near the squad at all, but we're talking realistic expectations here.

So would I, but I based the players I listed solely on squads Eddie has picked in the last 12mths or so.

Ashton is one I forgot.

Has Morgan been in an Eddie squad?

Puja

[richy678]

Looking at the names in the frames my thoughts are:

We look exposed at fullback on paper but hope Browny is given a route back in and Watson is up to speed. I don't really want to play a knockout game with Ashton at 15.

Back row looks a bit brittle if our first choices go down, although from where we were for a 7, Curry and Underhill are a godsend.

Over the past couple of seasons the back up props have never let us down, although I do think Cole maybe over the top now.

On the whole its a squad full of very, very talented players, but it would be nice if we were as strong everywhere as lock.

[Scrumhead]

Generally, I don't think you'd find many people disagreeing with the main picks there. I'd say Marchant over Lozowski for the third 13 in the training squad and I'd have Dombrandt and BCurry in over Mercer and Clifford. I don't know any of those three will trouble the 31-man final squad, but they stand a better chance IMO.

Puja

ETA. Also I'd have Te'o nowhere near the squad at all, but we're talking realistic expectations here.

So would I, but I based the players I listed solely on squads Eddie has picked in the last 12mths or so.

Ashton is one I forgot.

Has Morgan been in an Eddie squad?

Puja

Yep. He got called up in the 6 Nations, promptly got injured and was then ignored.

[Scrumhead]

According to TRP today the training squad is due to be named on 4th July and Hartley, Robshaw, Hughes and Ashton are set to be left out. Apparently Willi Heinz is in ...

I’ve got no issue with Hughes or Ashton being left out but it’ll be a disgrace if Shields goes ahead of Robshaw and Willi Heinz is picked full stop.

[Puja]

According to TRP today the training squad is due to be named on 4th July and Hartley, Robshaw, Hughes and Ashton are set to be left out. Apparently Willi Heinz is in ...

I’ve got no issue with Hughes or Ashton being left out but it’ll be a disgrace if Shields goes ahead of Robshaw and Willi Heinz is picked full stop.

I've got no issue with Heinz being picked as a reliable passer to run training exercises with - it's no secret that the scrum-halves will be 2 or 3 from Youngs, Care, and Spencer, so the 4th is largely irrelevant.

Leaving out Robshaw is a travesty, as you mentioned, and I'd actually be a little disappointed at leaving out Hartley - he wouldn't make my XXIII, but if George went down injured he'd be my starter, and his leadership would be good in the greater group.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

To be fair, as much as I’m not a fan of Hughes, I’d prefer him to be in the training squad than Shields.

How can he possibly be selected after such an average season?

Care really should be there too IMO. Without Robson, he is clearly the best ‘finisher’ we have at 9 and like Robshaw, is coming off the back of an excellent domestic season.

[Timbo]

To be fair, as much as I’m not a fan of Hughes, I’d prefer him to be in the training squad than Shields.

How can he possibly be selected after such an average season?

Care really should be there too IMO. Without Robson, he is clearly the best ‘finisher’ we have at 9 and like Robshaw, is coming off the back of an excellent domestic season.

I’d assumed Care would be back for the training squad at least. Is there a suggestion he won’t be?

Even if Robson and Youngs aren’t fit yet, I’d still rank Wigglesworth, Spencer and Care as better than Heinz.

Will have to see who is selected instead, but none of the 4 players mentioned above- Hartley, Ashton, Hughes, Robshaw- have made an undeniable case. Hartley in particular, at 33 and having not played for 7 months, would be rightfully excluded imo.

[Mellsblue]

Didn’t Heinz make an Eng training squad a couple of years ago to make up the numbers? Perhaps he proved himself uniquely adept at holding a tackle bag.

[Scrumhead]

To be fair, as much as I’m not a fan of Hughes, I’d prefer him to be in the training squad than Shields.

How can he possibly be selected after such an average season?

Care really should be there too IMO. Without Robson, he is clearly the best ‘finisher’ we have at 9 and like Robshaw, is coming off the back of an excellent domestic season.

I’d assumed Care would be back for the training squad at least. Is there a suggestion he won’t be?

Even if Robson and Youngs aren’t fit yet, I’d still rank Wigglesworth, Spencer and Care as better than Heinz.

Will have to see who is selected instead, but none of the 4 players mentioned above- Hartley, Ashton, Hughes, Robshaw- have made an undeniable case. Hartley in particular, at 33 and having not played for 7 months, would be rightfully excluded imo.

Yes. The article says Heinz is instead of Care (I read back and realised that I hadn’t actually said that)!

I think it’s fair to say that they haven’t made undeniable cases for inclusion, but I certainly wouldn’t say that the likes of Shields have either. Robshaw has been significantly better form and has a huge amount of experience of delivering at test level. Similar for Hartley. It’s hardly like Cowan-Dickie and Singleton have irrefutable claims to be selected.

[Timbo]

Heinz over Care is nonsense, 100% agree there. Care has turned/won games for England coming off the bench in the last couple of seasons. Why you’d throw that away on the eve of the World Cup for an uncapped, by the numbers, kind of 9 I’ve no idea.

I would have Robshaw in my training squad, but not at the expense of Shields, who I (pretty much alone on this forum) rate quite highly.

Kinda curious who will be picked in the backrow now though. Probably going to be 7/8 selected for this squad, and with no Hughes or Robshaw;

BVunipola
Underhill
TCurry
Wilson
Shields
Mercer/Clifford/Morgan/Dombrandt/Rhodes/BCurry...???

[Puja]

Heinz over Care is nonsense, 100% agree there. Care has turned/won games for England coming off the bench in the last couple of seasons. Why you’d throw that away on the eve of the World Cup for an uncapped, by the numbers, kind of 9 I’ve no idea.

I would have Robshaw in my training squad, but not at the expense of Shields, who I (pretty much alone on this forum) rate quite highly.

Kinda curious who will be picked in the backrow now though. Probably going to be 7/8 selected for this squad, and with no Hughes or Robshaw;

BVunipola
Underhill
TCurry
Wilson
Shields
Mercer/Clifford/Morgan/Dombrandt/Rhodes/BCurry...???

There's not going to be a huge amount of room in the final squad for backrow though. Wilson and Shields/Robshaw cover 6, Underhill and TCurry cover 7, BillyV and Wilson cover 8, with Itoje and Lawes offering extra cover if needs must. I don't see us taking more than 5 to Japan.

Also, I will burn everything if Robshaw isn't invited to the extended training squad, but Rhodes is.

Puja

[Banquo]

Heinz was terrible when he first rocked up, rivalling Greg Laidlaw's ability to slow the ball down in promising attacking situations. Fortunately with Glaws new coaching and ambition he's now better than terrible, approaching mediocre. But in our RWC training squad, lol.
I would shed no tears over Ashton and Hartley either, nor Hughes tbh.
I would also not select Robshaw- for all his revival in form at GP level, he remains one paced/slow, has many miles in his legs, and carries the scars of the last world cup and its crapness in all aspects.

[Mikey Brown]

Heinz was terrible when he first rocked up, rivalling Greg Laidlaw's ability to slow the ball down in promising attacking situations. Fortunately with Glaws new coaching and ambition he's now better than terrible, approaching mediocre. But in our RWC training squad, lol.
I would shed no tears over Ashton and Hartley either, nor Hughes tbh.
I would also not select Robshaw- for all his revival in form at GP level, he remains one paced/slow, has many miles in his legs, and carries the scars of the last world cup and its crapness in all aspects.

I understand the other arguments against Robshaw, but not particularly this one. All the coaches certainly seem to have got over it.

[Banquo]

Heinz was terrible when he first rocked up, rivalling Greg Laidlaw's ability to slow the ball down in promising attacking situations. Fortunately with Glaws new coaching and ambition he's now better than terrible, approaching mediocre. But in our RWC training squad, lol.
I would shed no tears over Ashton and Hartley either, nor Hughes tbh.
I would also not select Robshaw- for all his revival in form at GP level, he remains one paced/slow, has many miles in his legs, and carries the scars of the last world cup and its crapness in all aspects.

I understand the other arguments against Robshaw, but not particularly this one. All the coaches certainly seem to have got over it.

I meant bringing in his own baggage into the squad and his especially negative experience. Not sure what your coaches point actually means either, so that's both of us not understanding. Its only a minor point, the major one being he has been pants at international level for a while.

[Oakboy]

Heinz was terrible when he first rocked up, rivalling Greg Laidlaw's ability to slow the ball down in promising attacking situations. Fortunately with Glaws new coaching and ambition he's now better than terrible, approaching mediocre. But in our RWC training squad, lol.
I would shed no tears over Ashton and Hartley either, nor Hughes tbh.
I would also not select Robshaw- for all his revival in form at GP level, he remains one paced/slow, has many miles in his legs, and carries the scars of the last world cup and its crapness in all aspects.

I understand the other arguments against Robshaw, but not particularly this one. All the coaches certainly seem to have got over it.

I meant bringing in his own baggage into the squad and his especially negative experience. Not sure what your coaches point actually means either, so that's both of us not understanding. Its only a minor point, the major one being he has been pants at international level for a while.

I don't disagree about Robshaw but has Shields ever got up to that level? If it was a straight choice between the two I'd take Robshaw every time.

[Banquo]

I understand the other arguments against Robshaw, but not particularly this one. All the coaches certainly seem to have got over it.

I meant bringing in his own baggage into the squad and his especially negative experience. Not sure what your coaches point actually means either, so that's both of us not understanding. Its only a minor point, the major one being he has been pants at international level for a while.

I don't disagree about Robshaw but has Shields ever got up to that level? If it was a straight choice between the two I'd take Robshaw every time.

whole different argument. I'm not bothered about Shields either, though if he'd show his Hurricanes form that'd be different. Mind, why Eddie thinks picking players the AB's don't want takes us forward......

[Mikey Brown]

Heinz was terrible when he first rocked up, rivalling Greg Laidlaw's ability to slow the ball down in promising attacking situations. Fortunately with Glaws new coaching and ambition he's now better than terrible, approaching mediocre. But in our RWC training squad, lol.
I would shed no tears over Ashton and Hartley either, nor Hughes tbh.
I would also not select Robshaw- for all his revival in form at GP level, he remains one paced/slow, has many miles in his legs, and carries the scars of the last world cup and its crapness in all aspects.

I understand the other arguments against Robshaw, but not particularly this one. All the coaches certainly seem to have got over it.

I meant bringing in his own baggage into the squad and his especially negative experience. Not sure what your coaches point actually means either, so that's both of us not understanding. Its only a minor point, the major one being he has been pants at international level for a while.

I suppose it depends whether you consider that to be baggage or an incredibly valuable bit of experience of a RWC. It might be a distraction, but I would have thought it would be of some use to the squad. I mentioned the other coaches because they were all discarded, but are now doing very well for themselves and have all mentioned that RWC failure as a big motivating factor / learning experience / insert platitude. Similar with NZ in 07.

I could only really see Shields/Robshaw being in the 23 at all if Wilson got injured anyway. He's less slow than Robshaw, without being impressive in that area. Tackles harder maybe? But other than that I don't really see what we'd be gaining. EJ may well think Itoje/Lawes is plenty of cover at 6.

[Banquo]

I understand the other arguments against Robshaw, but not particularly this one. All the coaches certainly seem to have got over it.

I meant bringing in his own baggage into the squad and his especially negative experience. Not sure what your coaches point actually means either, so that's both of us not understanding. Its only a minor point, the major one being he has been pants at international level for a while.

I suppose it depends whether you consider that to be baggage or an incredibly valuable bit of experience of a RWC. It might be a distraction, but I would have thought it would be of some use to the squad. I mentioned the other coaches because they were all discarded, but are now doing very well for themselves and have all mentioned that RWC failure as a big motivating factor / learning experience / insert platitude. Similar with NZ in 07.

I could only really see Shields/Robshaw being in the 23 at all if Wilson got injured anyway. He's less slow than Robshaw, without being impressive in that area. Tackles harder maybe? But other than that I don't really see what we'd be gaining. EJ may well think Itoje/Lawes is plenty of cover at 6.

My point was that its a very negative experience, bringing all the crap that came with that- stench of failure hanging over him as skipper and all that, and a hangover from a crap regime, and the standard bearer for it. I don't think the coach point to be especially relevant, as they are working for different teams, and not together (and that mix was toxic). Just an opinion, and as I said a minor point vs him being past his sell by date; put it this way, if it were a marginal playing call, I'd see his 'experience from World Cups' counting against him

I'm not arguing for Shields to be included. Nor do I want Lawtoje as 6 cover.

[Mikey Brown]

That's fair, I think we just disagree (and let's be honest we're both just guessing) at how his previous experience would help or hinder.

Has anyone already managed to coax an answer out of you as to who you'd pick? In addition to (presumably?) Wilson, Curry, Underhill, Billy?

[Banquo]

That's fair, I think we just disagree (and let's be honest we're both just guessing) at how his previous experience would help or hinder.

Has anyone already managed to coax an answer out of you as to who you'd pick? In addition to (presumably?) Wilson, Curry, Underhill, Billy?

No