Folau raising money to fight for his right to be a prick

[Tigersman]

You don't get born believing in or not believing in a religion.
No one comes out the womb as Christian.

[Stom]

If atheism is not a choice then neither is theism and criticism of Folau is misplaced. Of course it's a bloody choice what you believe.

Televangelist is bang on. The fund didn't even require him to spend the money on legal fees. He was just gouging people to feed his own avarice.

'tis possible I was the first on this thread to contend atheism isn't choice, but I also noted Folau was condemning other groups of theists to hell also if they didn't share his vision of the one true path, and that those theists who have a different take on Christianity or simply a different religion likely don't view their belief as a choice either.

Beyond that I'm sticking with a belief system is not a choice. You can choose the building blocks of your belief system in how you spend your time experiencing life, and that will have a significant bearing on the belief that fills our lack of understanding, but I don't know that's quite the same as choosing a belief. Though I suppose if pushed on the subject specifically of atheism I've no interest in defending a position of atheism over agnosticism

So basically, what you're saying is that anything is OK because it's not a choice. You can say that all gay people should go to hell and that's OK. You can say that all black people are the devil, and that's OK. You can be Hitler, and that's OK.

In the words of Chris Morris:

You're wrong and you're a grotesquely ugly freak.

[Digby]

Bollocks, newborns crave spiritual milk, it says so in the Bible so must be true!

[Mellsblue]

As much as I’m loathe to be drawn in to this....I’m an atheist and nothing other than God/Jesus appearing before me and having a chat about whether it’s ok for Paddy Jackson to play for London Irish is going to make me believe that religion is anything beyond the biggest scam the world has ever seen. Even if I wanted to be religious, and I’ve wanted that safety blanket recently, I can’t be until I see some proof. Going by your rationale, it’s like saying nobody comes out of the womb pro or anti vaccination. Well no, but I’ve weighed it up and all the science tells me that vaccinations work so I don’t have a choice as to whether I believe in it or not.

[Digby]

If atheism is not a choice then neither is theism and criticism of Folau is misplaced. Of course it's a bloody choice what you believe.

Televangelist is bang on. The fund didn't even require him to spend the money on legal fees. He was just gouging people to feed his own avarice.

'tis possible I was the first on this thread to contend atheism isn't choice, but I also noted Folau was condemning other groups of theists to hell also if they didn't share his vision of the one true path, and that those theists who have a different take on Christianity or simply a different religion likely don't view their belief as a choice either.

Beyond that I'm sticking with a belief system is not a choice. You can choose the building blocks of your belief system in how you spend your time experiencing life, and that will have a significant bearing on the belief that fills our lack of understanding, but I don't know that's quite the same as choosing a belief. Though I suppose if pushed on the subject specifically of atheism I've no interest in defending a position of atheism over agnosticism

So basically, what you're saying is that anything is OK because it's not a choice. You can say that all gay people should go to hell and that's OK. You can say that all black people are the devil, and that's OK. You can be Hitler, and that's OK.

In the words of Chris Morris:

You're wrong and you're a grotesquely ugly freak.

Nope, I'm not saying anything like that. You're responsible for the life steps that given you the experiences which inform your beliefs for a start, and you have to find a way to have those beliefs work in a society not just for you as an individual. So the individual can think as they will, but you can't in all instances act on those beliefs to inform dealings beyond one's personal musings.

Also whilst I wouldn't want to be sending gay people to hell, it doesn't make any sense to even suggest I'd say gay people should go to hell because as an atheist (and I thought I'd been clear on that) I don't believe in hell, ditto whilst I wouldn't call black people the devil it doesn't make sense to suggest I would because again I don't believe in magical overlords including the devil. You can be the next Hitler, but whilst that's possible it's not to be clear okay for someone to have such ambition, whether he's called Donald or otherwise

[Mellsblue]

'tis possible I was the first on this thread to contend atheism isn't choice, but I also noted Folau was condemning other groups of theists to hell also if they didn't share his vision of the one true path, and that those theists who have a different take on Christianity or simply a different religion likely don't view their belief as a choice either.

Beyond that I'm sticking with a belief system is not a choice. You can choose the building blocks of your belief system in how you spend your time experiencing life, and that will have a significant bearing on the belief that fills our lack of understanding, but I don't know that's quite the same as choosing a belief. Though I suppose if pushed on the subject specifically of atheism I've no interest in defending a position of atheism over agnosticism

So basically, what you're saying is that anything is OK because it's not a choice. You can say that all gay people should go to hell and that's OK. You can say that all black people are the devil, and that's OK. You can be Hitler, and that's OK.

In the words of Chris Morris:

You're wrong and you're a grotesquely ugly freak.

Nope, I'm not saying anything like that. You're responsible for the life steps that given you the experiences which inform your beliefs for a start, and you have to find a way to have those beliefs work in a society not just for you as an individual. So the individual can think as they will, but you can't in all instances act on those beliefs to inform dealings beyond one's personal musings.

Also whilst I wouldn't want to be sending gay people to hell, it doesn't make any sense to even suggest I'd say gay people should go to hell because as an atheist (and I thought I'd been clear on that) I don't believe in hell, ditto whilst I wouldn't call black people the devil it doesn't make sense to suggest I would because again I don't believe in magical overlords including the devil. You can be the next Hitler, but whilst that's possible it's not to be clear okay for someone to have such ambition, whether he's called Donald or otherwise

There is a glorious irony in the religious bloke incorrectly censuring the atheist for agreeing with a different religious bloke who is spouting bollocks derived from a book from which the original religious bloke bases his ‘optional’ belief system.

[Digby]

So basically, what you're saying is that anything is OK because it's not a choice. You can say that all gay people should go to hell and that's OK. You can say that all black people are the devil, and that's OK. You can be Hitler, and that's OK.

In the words of Chris Morris:

You're wrong and you're a grotesquely ugly freak.

Nope, I'm not saying anything like that. You're responsible for the life steps that given you the experiences which inform your beliefs for a start, and you have to find a way to have those beliefs work in a society not just for you as an individual. So the individual can think as they will, but you can't in all instances act on those beliefs to inform dealings beyond one's personal musings.

Also whilst I wouldn't want to be sending gay people to hell, it doesn't make any sense to even suggest I'd say gay people should go to hell because as an atheist (and I thought I'd been clear on that) I don't believe in hell, ditto whilst I wouldn't call black people the devil it doesn't make sense to suggest I would because again I don't believe in magical overlords including the devil. You can be the next Hitler, but whilst that's possible it's not to be clear okay for someone to have such ambition, whether he's called Donald or otherwise

There is a glorious irony in the religious bloke incorrectly censuring the atheist for agreeing with a different religious bloke who is spouting bollocks derived from a book from which the original religious bloke bases his ‘optional’ belief system.

I was going to contest also that anything goes because it's not a choice. A belief is not a choice, but acting upon beliefs is, ideally one would keep in mind our beliefs could well be for shit

[Numbers]

From Folau's wiki page:

"Folau grew up as a Mormon, but moved to being an active member of the Assemblies of God Christian fellowship in 2011."

This would suggest he chose his religion to me.

Also this:

"I believe that it is a loving gesture to share passages from the Bible with others. I do it all the time when people ask me questions about my faith or things relating to their lives, whether that's in-person or on my social media accounts."

He's one deluded fucker that's for sure.

[Mellsblue]

Big difference between choosing your religion and whether you can choose to be religious. But, yeh, one deluded individual.

[Tigersman]

Both are still very much choices.

[Mellsblue]

Both are still very much choices.

Shall we agree to disagree.

[Puja]

I think that's probably for the best. I enjoy a good online argument and even I want no part in this.

Puja

[Digby]

Big difference between choosing your religion and whether you can choose to be religious. But, yeh, one deluded individual.

Tony Blair managed to make changing religion a choice, and one of political convenience at that, fine work Tony, but I'd accept for many swapping their ski fairy isn't a choice and merely a new sky fairy is now speaking to them, whether directly or through caterpillars, or even angels

[Raggs]

As much as I’m loathe to be drawn in to this....I’m an atheist and nothing other than God/Jesus appearing before me and having a chat about whether it’s ok for Paddy Jackson to play for London Irish is going to make me believe that religion is anything beyond the biggest scam the world has ever seen. Even if I wanted to be religious, and I’ve wanted that safety blanket recently, I can’t be until I see some proof. Going by your rationale, it’s like saying nobody comes out of the womb pro or anti vaccination. Well no, but I’ve weighed it up and all the science tells me that vaccinations work so I don’t have a choice as to whether I believe in it or not.

I think you class as a hard atheist when you figure that should god and Jesus come down to tell you the good word, you're more likely to check yourself into hospital as you've been suffering hallucinations, than to start believing.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

As much as I’m loathe to be drawn in to this....I’m an atheist and nothing other than God/Jesus appearing before me and having a chat about whether it’s ok for Paddy Jackson to play for London Irish is going to make me believe that religion is anything beyond the biggest scam the world has ever seen. Even if I wanted to be religious, and I’ve wanted that safety blanket recently, I can’t be until I see some proof. Going by your rationale, it’s like saying nobody comes out of the womb pro or anti vaccination. Well no, but I’ve weighed it up and all the science tells me that vaccinations work so I don’t have a choice as to whether I believe in it or not.

That is to fundamentally misunderstand choice.

[Mellsblue]

As much as I’m loathe to be drawn in to this....I’m an atheist and nothing other than God/Jesus appearing before me and having a chat about whether it’s ok for Paddy Jackson to play for London Irish is going to make me believe that religion is anything beyond the biggest scam the world has ever seen. Even if I wanted to be religious, and I’ve wanted that safety blanket recently, I can’t be until I see some proof. Going by your rationale, it’s like saying nobody comes out of the womb pro or anti vaccination. Well no, but I’ve weighed it up and all the science tells me that vaccinations work so I don’t have a choice as to whether I believe in it or not.

That is to fundamentally misunderstand choice.

It’s a different type of choice to being gay, I fully accept that, but I still don’t have a choice. I fully accept that being gay and being atheist is comparing apples and oranges both in how you get to being one or the other or the repercussions of being one or the other. However, choosing whether to have a cheese sandwich or a ham sandwich is a choice. Through either nature, nurture or a combo of both I can’t believe anything unless shown proof it is true. My father is exactly the same, so maybe I did come out of the womb an atheist. I therefore can’t choose to be religious and, I’ll state it again, I’ve really wanted to be religious recently. In the past couple of months my mother has lost her best friend in her 60s, leaving behind two grand kids that she lives with, one of whom is severely disabled and she is the full time care for, and a friend I’ve known since the age of 12, who I lived with for four years and who is like a brother, lost his 5 year old son to cancer. Further to that in the past 6/7 years a further two very close school friends, also like brothers to me, have lost three kids during pregnancy, two still births. I’ve seen them all go through immense pain, especially my friend who lost his 5 yo, and I’ve really wished I could believe that he would see his son again, that there is an afterlife, that there is some entity with a brilliant plan but I just can’t make that choice because of who I am and how I’m wired. If god does come and visit me, I will be calling him a c**t.
Again, I’m not making a comparison with whether a person is gay or not but being an atheist isn’t a choice, for me at least, but then I’m also very lucky when and where I live that being an atheist has had only very minor repercussions on my life.
That really is me done. I don’t normally get in to discussions about religion, mainly for the same reason as not arguing about tooth fairies etc, but it is really very raw and personal at the moment.

[Stom]

As much as I’m loathe to be drawn in to this....I’m an atheist and nothing other than God/Jesus appearing before me and having a chat about whether it’s ok for Paddy Jackson to play for London Irish is going to make me believe that religion is anything beyond the biggest scam the world has ever seen. Even if I wanted to be religious, and I’ve wanted that safety blanket recently, I can’t be until I see some proof. Going by your rationale, it’s like saying nobody comes out of the womb pro or anti vaccination. Well no, but I’ve weighed it up and all the science tells me that vaccinations work so I don’t have a choice as to whether I believe in it or not.

That is to fundamentally misunderstand choice.

It’s a different type of choice to being gay, I fully accept that, but I still don’t have a choice. I fully accept that being gay and being atheist is comparing apples and oranges both in how you get to being one or the other or the repercussions of being one or the other. However, choosing whether to have a cheese sandwich or a ham sandwich is a choice. Through either nature, nurture or a combo of both I can’t believe anything unless shown proof it is true. My father is exactly the same, so maybe I did come out of the womb an atheist. I therefore can’t choose to be religious and, I’ll state it again, I’ve really wanted to be religious recently. In the past couple of months my mother has lost her best friend in her 60s, leaving behind two grand kids that she lives with, one of whom is severely disabled and she is the full time care for, and a friend I’ve known since the age of 12, who I lived with for four years and who is like a brother, lost his 5 year old son to cancer. Further to that in the past 6/7 years a further two very close school friends, also like brothers to me, have lost three kids during pregnancy, two still births. I’ve seen them all go through immense pain, especially my friend who lost his 5 yo, and I’ve really wished I could believe that he would see his son again, that there is an afterlife, that there is some entity with a brilliant plan but I just can’t make that choice because of who I am and how I’m wired. If god does come and visit me, I will be calling him a c**t.
Again, I’m not making a comparison with whether a person is gay or not but being an atheist isn’t a choice, for me at least, but then I’m also very lucky when and where I live that being an atheist has had only very minor repercussions on my life.
That really is me done. I don’t normally get in to discussions about religion, mainly for the same reason as not arguing about tooth fairies etc, but it is really very raw and personal at the moment.

So you're basically saying that choices are only for the mundane?

That anything that isn't mundane is not a choice?

That you can choose to have a different sandwich, but you can't choose who you are or what you believe in?

Maybe you should try telling that to Tony Robbins. Or Warren Buffet. Or Obama, or Soros...

If you believe that choosing who you are is in fact not a choice, you believe in the death sentence. You believe in no second chances.

Have you ever been given a second chance? Did you ever fuck up and were given the chance to make it right?

If you have, then you exercised your right to CHOOSE to think and act differently. Indeed, to believe differently.

[Digby]

No idea what's meant by that Stom, or perhaps better asked why is atheism, a choice? Or asked another way again, if one doesn't hold a sense of faith is it not more than a little disrespectful to claim to hold the same belief(s) as those of a faith?

I'm using atheism rather than agnosticism as technically you could argue everyone is agnostic, and then we split into those with and without faith.

[Numbers]

No idea what's meant by that Stom, or perhaps better asked why is atheism, a choice? Or asked another way again, if one doesn't hold a sense of faith is it not more than a little disrespectful to claim to hold the same belief(s) as those of a faith?

I'm using atheism rather than agnosticism as technically you could argue everyone is agnostic, and then we split into those with and without faith.

I suppose Atheism would just be an absence of faith wouldn't it?

[Digby]

No idea what's meant by that Stom, or perhaps better asked why is atheism, a choice? Or asked another way again, if one doesn't hold a sense of faith is it not more than a little disrespectful to claim to hold the same belief(s) as those of a faith?

I'm using atheism rather than agnosticism as technically you could argue everyone is agnostic, and then we split into those with and without faith.

I suppose Atheism would just be an absence of faith wouldn't it?

In that sense no, that could just be agnosticism, atheism is a belief system in itself. This is all rather muddied by my using atheism rather than agnosticism, and perhaps would read better simply as agnosticism and we'll just ignore theists are technically agnostics too as nobody really knows.

[Tigersman]

I don't see how being an Atheist is a belief system though.
It in itself is having a lack of belief.

[Stom]

I don't see how being an Atheist is a belief system though.
It in itself is having a lack of belief.

There's a difference between religion and belief...

Everyone has a belief system. Just because it's not part of an organised religion or subset of that religion doesn't make it less of a belief system.

I know I have my own system of beliefs, even if I don't hold any affiliation to a god I know of.

[Tigersman]

I know there is a difference between religion and belief....
So in what way is atheism a belief system? What principles does it form for you?

[Stom]

I know there is a difference between religion and belief....
So in what way is atheism a belief system? What principles does it form for you?

Atheim itelf isn't a belief system, as different atheists can have different belief systems, but one may believe in the power of the individual.

I'm somewhat agnostic rather than strictly atheist, as I do believe there is a higher power of some kind, but I do not believe it influences our ability to make choices. And that's what this was all about.

I was born into a Catholic family, I went to Catholic school, and I chose to believe what I believed. My system of beliefs has changed quite considerably over the years and I think that's completely natural. All of them were my choice, though.

Some are more a choice than others, but atheism is a choice, just as being a born-again radical haterian is, because let's be honest: what Folau preaches is not Christian in any way that remains true to the initial doctrines of that Church. Just as that peculiar American form of Christianity that denies women control over their bodies or bombs the fuck out of muslims is Christian.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

As much as I’m loathe to be drawn in to this....I’m an atheist and nothing other than God/Jesus appearing before me and having a chat about whether it’s ok for Paddy Jackson to play for London Irish is going to make me believe that religion is anything beyond the biggest scam the world has ever seen. Even if I wanted to be religious, and I’ve wanted that safety blanket recently, I can’t be until I see some proof. Going by your rationale, it’s like saying nobody comes out of the womb pro or anti vaccination. Well no, but I’ve weighed it up and all the science tells me that vaccinations work so I don’t have a choice as to whether I believe in it or not.

That is to fundamentally misunderstand choice.

It’s a different type of choice to being gay, I fully accept that, but I still don’t have a choice. I fully accept that being gay and being atheist is comparing apples and oranges both in how you get to being one or the other or the repercussions of being one or the other. However, choosing whether to have a cheese sandwich or a ham sandwich is a choice. Through either nature, nurture or a combo of both I can’t believe anything unless shown proof it is true. My father is exactly the same, so maybe I did come out of the womb an atheist. I therefore can’t choose to be religious and, I’ll state it again, I’ve really wanted to be religious recently. In the past couple of months my mother has lost her best friend in her 60s, leaving behind two grand kids that she lives with, one of whom is severely disabled and she is the full time care for, and a friend I’ve known since the age of 12, who I lived with for four years and who is like a brother, lost his 5 year old son to cancer. Further to that in the past 6/7 years a further two very close school friends, also like brothers to me, have lost three kids during pregnancy, two still births. I’ve seen them all go through immense pain, especially my friend who lost his 5 yo, and I’ve really wished I could believe that he would see his son again, that there is an afterlife, that there is some entity with a brilliant plan but I just can’t make that choice because of who I am and how I’m wired. If god does come and visit me, I will be calling him a c**t.
Again, I’m not making a comparison with whether a person is gay or not but being an atheist isn’t a choice, for me at least, but then I’m also very lucky when and where I live that being an atheist has had only very minor repercussions on my life.
That really is me done. I don’t normally get in to discussions about religion, mainly for the same reason as not arguing about tooth fairies etc, but it is really very raw and personal at the moment.

You are eliding "I don't" with "I can't". And I'd wager that there are probably half a dozen things that you believe every day without "proof" that they are true, starting with the fact that rugby is the finest ball game on the planet.