England vs Wales match thread - RWC warmup, Raeburn Shield challenge, and chance to take down the #1 ranked team

[Mikey Brown]

Do we think he's settled on 12. Tuilagi 13. Slade?

Hope not. Nor do i want Nowell as a first choice esp as he is pretty injury prone. Daly on the wing please.

Yes but can you see Jones shifting on any of those?

He loves Nowell, and even if he thinks Daly is the best winger available (and not the best fullback) I can’t see him being humble enough to admit it at this stage.

[Banquo]

Do we think he's settled on 12. Tuilagi 13. Slade?

Hope not. Nor do i want Nowell as a first choice esp as he is pretty injury prone. Daly on the wing please.

Yes but can you see Jones shifting on any of those?

He loves Nowell, and even if he thinks Daly is the best winger available (and not the best fullback) I can’t see him being humble enough to admit it at this stage.

Yes I can; don't think he is convinced by Slade, and Nowell likely not very fit.

[Timbo]

I think the first choice pack is settled.

Backline-wise, I’d say Joseph, Te’o and Watson could still force themselves in.

[Mellsblue]

Has Jones ever not picked a fit Watson?

[Scrumhead]

Do we think he's settled on 12. Tuilagi 13. Slade?

Hope not. Nor do i want Nowell as a first choice esp as he is pretty injury prone. Daly on the wing please.

I’m happy with the Tuilagi and Slade combination TBH.

With a different 10, I’d rather have seen JJ at 13 but given Farrell is nailed-on, Tuilagi and Slade make better use of what he gives them.

Slade has really stepped-up in the last year too. It took him a while to find his feet at test level, but he seems to have done so.

If you’re moving Daly back to the wing, I’m assuming Watson goes to 15?

[Banquo]

Do we think he's settled on 12. Tuilagi 13. Slade?

Hope not. Nor do i want Nowell as a first choice esp as he is pretty injury prone. Daly on the wing please.

I’m happy with the Tuilagi and Slade combination TBH.

With a different 10, I’d rather have seen JJ at 13 but given Farrell is nailed-on, Tuilagi and Slade make better use of what he gives them.

Slade has really stepped-up in the last year too. It took him a while to find his feet at test level, but he seems to have done so.

If you’re moving Daly back to the wing, I’m assuming Watson goes to 15?

I think a Faz, Tuilagi Slade midfield could get shredded in defence; perfect storm of headless Faz, static footed Manu and Slade decision making. JJ is the best defender we have, and you need him if Manu is to play 12, and Faz at 10 for that matter. I assume you mean you need a second distributor in Slade if Faz plays. Lipstick on a pig for me, that one


Yes to the second part; if watson isn't fit enough, we have a problem.

[Oakboy]

Hope not. Nor do i want Nowell as a first choice esp as he is pretty injury prone. Daly on the wing please.

I’m happy with the Tuilagi and Slade combination TBH.

With a different 10, I’d rather have seen JJ at 13 but given Farrell is nailed-on, Tuilagi and Slade make better use of what he gives them.

Slade has really stepped-up in the last year too. It took him a while to find his feet at test level, but he seems to have done so.

If you’re moving Daly back to the wing, I’m assuming Watson goes to 15?

I think a Faz, Tuilagi Slade midfield could get shredded in defence; perfect storm of headless Faz, static footed Manu and Slade decision making. JJ is the best defender we have, and you need him if Manu is to play 12, and Faz at 10 for that matter. I assume you mean you need a second distributor in Slade if Faz plays. Lipstick on a pig for me, that one


Yes to the second part; if watson isn't fit enough, we have a problem.

As ever, all that makes sense but I think Jones IS settled on Slade. I might have chosen the JJ of two years ago ahead of him but in a straight choice today, I'd take Slade. I suppose I will always hanker after Slade at 12 and I prefer Tuilagi at 13. The option of them playing either way is worth having. Also, I think Slade has something extra in his hands for releasing the speedsters outside. Mind you, I hate agreeing with Jones.

[Banquo]

I’m happy with the Tuilagi and Slade combination TBH.

With a different 10, I’d rather have seen JJ at 13 but given Farrell is nailed-on, Tuilagi and Slade make better use of what he gives them.

Slade has really stepped-up in the last year too. It took him a while to find his feet at test level, but he seems to have done so.

If you’re moving Daly back to the wing, I’m assuming Watson goes to 15?

I think a Faz, Tuilagi Slade midfield could get shredded in defence; perfect storm of headless Faz, static footed Manu and Slade decision making. JJ is the best defender we have, and you need him if Manu is to play 12, and Faz at 10 for that matter. I assume you mean you need a second distributor in Slade if Faz plays. Lipstick on a pig for me, that one


Yes to the second part; if watson isn't fit enough, we have a problem.

As ever, all that makes sense but I think Jones IS settled on Slade. I might have chosen the JJ of two years ago ahead of him but in a straight choice today, I'd take Slade. I suppose I will always hanker after Slade at 12 and I prefer Tuilagi at 13. The option of them playing either way is worth having. Also, I think Slade has something extra in his hands for releasing the speedsters outside. Mind you, I hate agreeing with Jones.

Hope you are wrong.

[Scrumhead]

Hope not. Nor do i want Nowell as a first choice esp as he is pretty injury prone. Daly on the wing please.

I’m happy with the Tuilagi and Slade combination TBH.

With a different 10, I’d rather have seen JJ at 13 but given Farrell is nailed-on, Tuilagi and Slade make better use of what he gives them.

Slade has really stepped-up in the last year too. It took him a while to find his feet at test level, but he seems to have done so.

If you’re moving Daly back to the wing, I’m assuming Watson goes to 15?

I think a Faz, Tuilagi Slade midfield could get shredded in defence; perfect storm of headless Faz, static footed Manu and Slade decision making. JJ is the best defender we have, and you need him if Manu is to play 12, and Faz at 10 for that matter. I assume you mean you need a second distributor in Slade if Faz plays. Lipstick on a pig for me, that one


Yes to the second part; if watson isn't fit enough, we have a problem.

I don’t entirely disagree, but I do think you’re overstating the issues here.

That midfield ‘could get shredded in defence’, but they’ve had something like 7 tests together including four of the top 4 sides in the World (NZ, SA, Ireland and Wales) and haven’t been badly exposed.

Watson hasn’t been fit for a long time and while he will certainly add to the side, I don’t think it’s as much of a problem as you’re suggesting. My first choice back three would be Watson, May and Daly but I’m a fan of Nowell and if he’s fit, he’d definitely be in my squad, possibly in the 23 shirt.

[Banquo]

I’m happy with the Tuilagi and Slade combination TBH.

With a different 10, I’d rather have seen JJ at 13 but given Farrell is nailed-on, Tuilagi and Slade make better use of what he gives them.

Slade has really stepped-up in the last year too. It took him a while to find his feet at test level, but he seems to have done so.

If you’re moving Daly back to the wing, I’m assuming Watson goes to 15?

I think a Faz, Tuilagi Slade midfield could get shredded in defence; perfect storm of headless Faz, static footed Manu and Slade decision making. JJ is the best defender we have, and you need him if Manu is to play 12, and Faz at 10 for that matter. I assume you mean you need a second distributor in Slade if Faz plays. Lipstick on a pig for me, that one


Yes to the second part; if watson isn't fit enough, we have a problem.

I don’t entirely disagree, but I do think you’re overstating the issues here.

That midfield ‘could get shredded in defence’, but they’ve had something like 7 tests together including four of the top 4 sides in the World (NZ, SA, Ireland and Wales) and haven’t been badly exposed.

Watson hasn’t been fit for a long time and while he will certainly add to the side, I don’t think it’s as much of a problem as you’re suggesting. My first choice back three would be Watson, May and Daly but I’m a fan of Nowell and if he’s fit, he’d definitely be in my squad, possibly in the 23 shirt.

No they haven't. They've started 4 tests together- and in the games against Wales and Scotland, Tuilagi missed a load of tackles, and against Scotland both Slade and Tuilagi missed a lot. You may have mistaken Teo for Tuilagi in the AI's. Even if you look at the AI's you will see a lot of missed tackles in midfield.

Daly has been dreadful under the high ball. Nowell offers a lot, bar speed, going forward, but again, in defence is average for an intl.

I think you are overstating what I suggested ....just pointing to a couple of my concerns.

[Scrumhead]

OK - I didn’t mix up Te’o and Tuilagi - I just misremembered who had played in the AIs.

So what is your solution? Drop Tuilagi, drop Slade or drop both and go back to Farrell at 12?

[Scrumhead]

I agree that Daly is terrible under a high ball. I’d like to see Watson at 15 with Daly moved back to the wing.

[Banquo]

OK - I didn’t mix up Te’o and Tuilagi - I just misremembered who had played in the AIs.

So what is your solution? Drop Tuilagi, drop Slade or drop both and go back to Farrell at 12?

I don't have to have one, Eddie does.

FWIW Ford, Slade, JJ or Ford, Manu, JJ. Don't know if Manu's footwork can be improved to a sufficient standard at 12.

[Banquo]

I agree that Daly is terrible under a high ball. I’d like to see Watson at 15 with Daly moved back to the wing.

well that was my original point, hence a problem. I'd even consider Brown over Daly at 15 at a world cup.

[Puja]

OK - I didn’t mix up Te’o and Tuilagi - I just misremembered who had played in the AIs.

So what is your solution? Drop Tuilagi, drop Slade or drop both and go back to Farrell at 12?

I'd have Farrell at 12, but that's because a) we're not going to drop him and Ford *needs* to be at 10 for us to have a functional attack and b) I actually think he does quite well there outside Ford (#unpopularopinion).

I think Slade at 13 is a solution to a problem that we don't need to make ourselves have and Manu at 12 means we have to waste a squad space on Te'o as we need backup for the inevitable injury. Pick Ford/Faz, as was the partnership for near our entire winning streak and put whichever of Joseph or Tuilagi is showing best outside of them.

Puja

[Banquo]

OK - I didn’t mix up Te’o and Tuilagi - I just misremembered who had played in the AIs.

So what is your solution? Drop Tuilagi, drop Slade or drop both and go back to Farrell at 12?

I'd have Farrell at 12, but that's because a) we're not going to drop him and Ford *needs* to be at 10 for us to have a functional attack and b) I actually think he does quite well there outside Ford (#unpopularopinion).

I think Slade at 13 is a solution to a problem that we don't need to make ourselves have and Manu at 12 means we have to waste a squad space on Te'o as we need backup for the inevitable injury. Pick Ford/Faz, as was the partnership for near our entire winning streak and put whichever of Joseph or Tuilagi is showing best outside of them.

Puja

Who would you really have at 12, if a) wasn't true?

[Puja]

OK - I didn’t mix up Te’o and Tuilagi - I just misremembered who had played in the AIs.

So what is your solution? Drop Tuilagi, drop Slade or drop both and go back to Farrell at 12?

I'd have Farrell at 12, but that's because a) we're not going to drop him and Ford *needs* to be at 10 for us to have a functional attack and b) I actually think he does quite well there outside Ford (#unpopularopinion).

I think Slade at 13 is a solution to a problem that we don't need to make ourselves have and Manu at 12 means we have to waste a squad space on Te'o as we need backup for the inevitable injury. Pick Ford/Faz, as was the partnership for near our entire winning streak and put whichever of Joseph or Tuilagi is showing best outside of them.

Puja

Who would you really have at 12, if a) wasn't true?

In the words of the Yorkshireman offering directions, I probably wouldn't start from here. If we were 2 years out from a RWC, I'd be tempted to see if Slade could be converted to a 12, or give Francis a prolonged run. If we're talking about right now, I would pick Farrell.

Yes, he's not going to make breaks on his own. But if we've got Ford inside him, he doesn't need to - he gets to be the pull-back option that then fires passes wide to the back three of Daly, May, and Watson. Ford makes the decisions, Farrell just has to deal with the execution when he's called on and he's actually good at that when he's not having to think at the same time.

Frankly, having an attacking line that sees Ford go to the line with the option of Manu going short or Farrell drifting behind to feed May, Daly, and Watson is very exciting to me. I'd rather that over bosh at 12.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

I'd have Farrell at 12, but that's because a) we're not going to drop him and Ford *needs* to be at 10 for us to have a functional attack and b) I actually think he does quite well there outside Ford (#unpopularopinion).

I think Slade at 13 is a solution to a problem that we don't need to make ourselves have and Manu at 12 means we have to waste a squad space on Te'o as we need backup for the inevitable injury. Pick Ford/Faz, as was the partnership for near our entire winning streak and put whichever of Joseph or Tuilagi is showing best outside of them.

Puja

Who would you really have at 12, if a) wasn't true?

In the words of the Yorkshireman offering directions, I probably wouldn't start from here. If we were 2 years out from a RWC, I'd be tempted to see if Slade could be converted to a 12, or give Francis a prolonged run. If we're talking about right now, I would pick Farrell.

Yes, he's not going to make breaks on his own. But if we've got Ford inside him, he doesn't need to - he gets to be the pull-back option that then fires passes wide to the back three of Daly, May, and Watson. Ford makes the decisions, Farrell just has to deal with the execution when he's called on and he's actually good at that when he's not having to think at the same time.

Frankly, having an attacking line that sees Ford go to the line with the option of Manu going short or Farrell drifting behind to feed May, Daly, and Watson is very exciting to me. I'd rather that over bosh at 12.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Oh well, if we are back to dreaming, I'd happily accept a three-month injury for Youngs, Ford, Farrell and Shields. It would not bother me that much if Tuilagi joined them. Spencer, Cipriani, Slade, JJ - yes, please, plus Armand into the squad.

The snag is that we are debating what Jones will do, assuming no injuries.

[Banquo]

Who would you really have at 12, if a) wasn't true?

In the words of the Yorkshireman offering directions, I probably wouldn't start from here. If we were 2 years out from a RWC, I'd be tempted to see if Slade could be converted to a 12, or give Francis a prolonged run. If we're talking about right now, I would pick Farrell.

Yes, he's not going to make breaks on his own. But if we've got Ford inside him, he doesn't need to - he gets to be the pull-back option that then fires passes wide to the back three of Daly, May, and Watson. Ford makes the decisions, Farrell just has to deal with the execution when he's called on and he's actually good at that when he's not having to think at the same time.

Frankly, having an attacking line that sees Ford go to the line with the option of Manu going short or Farrell drifting behind to feed May, Daly, and Watson is very exciting to me. I'd rather that over bosh at 12.

Puja

I'm the opposite. He can 'fire' passes to the left, but not the right; defences won't worry about him, and the back three consequently are nullified. He's a poor defender. But hey, lets go with it, as he's undroppable.

[Banquo]

Oh well, if we are back to dreaming, I'd happily accept a three-month injury for Youngs, Ford, Farrell and Shields. It would not bother me that much if Tuilagi joined them. Spencer, Cipriani, Slade, JJ - yes, please, plus Armand into the squad.

The snag is that we are debating what Jones will do, assuming no injuries.

I wasn't. I was asked what I'd do. And wishing injury/absence on Ford is odd,

[Timbo]

Well, it’s a pretty significant win for Jones that nobody seems to be griping about the pack at least.

[Banquo]

Well, it’s a pretty significant win for Jones that nobody seems to be griping about the pack at least.

indeed, though a little as a consequence of injury; our (now) first choice pack and bench is quality. But would George, Wilson and Curry have been first choice but for chance? He also has to have the Vunipolae stay fit- but then, players of their quality would be a big loss to anyone.

[Timbo]

Well, it’s a pretty significant win for Jones that nobody seems to be griping about the pack at least.

indeed, though a little as a consequence of injury; our (now) first choice pack and bench is quality. But would George, Wilson and Curry have been first choice but for chance? He also has to have the Vunipolae stay fit- but then, players of their quality would be a big loss to anyone.

Maybe, but he deserves credit for exposing Curry and Underhill to test rugby well before most would have. He’s also played a big role in developing Sinckler into a very good international tighthead.

[Puja]

In the words of the Yorkshireman offering directions, I probably wouldn't start from here. If we were 2 years out from a RWC, I'd be tempted to see if Slade could be converted to a 12, or give Francis a prolonged run. If we're talking about right now, I would pick Farrell.

Yes, he's not going to make breaks on his own. But if we've got Ford inside him, he doesn't need to - he gets to be the pull-back option that then fires passes wide to the back three of Daly, May, and Watson. Ford makes the decisions, Farrell just has to deal with the execution when he's called on and he's actually good at that when he's not having to think at the same time.

Frankly, having an attacking line that sees Ford go to the line with the option of Manu going short or Farrell drifting behind to feed May, Daly, and Watson is very exciting to me. I'd rather that over bosh at 12.

Puja

I'm the opposite. He can 'fire' passes to the left, but not the right; defences won't worry about him, and the back three consequently are nullified. He's a poor defender. But hey, lets go with it, as he's undroppable.

The thing about having Ford and Manu either side of him is that defenders not worrying about him is a feature, not a bug. If defenders drift wide to cover the wingers or charge up to cut off the pull-back, then Ford sends Manu on the short ball. If the defenders bite in on Manu, then Farrell goes round the corner (and he can run through a gap, contrary to popular opinion). The fact that he doesn't make breaks on his own very often becomes less relevant when Ford's doing all the decision-making.

I will give you the poor defending and the lower accuracy off his bad hand (although he has got better - nowadays it's more like 1 in 6 goes wrong, rather than 1 in 2), which is why I'd see if Slade could be converted or if Francis has the chops. However, neither of them are better international 12s at this precise moment and have flaws elsewhere, so if we're talking playing next month, I'm taking Fazlet.

Puja