England vs Wales match thread - RWC warmup, Raeburn Shield challenge, and chance to take down the #1 ranked team

[Banquo]

Well, it’s a pretty significant win for Jones that nobody seems to be griping about the pack at least.

indeed, though a little as a consequence of injury; our (now) first choice pack and bench is quality. But would George, Wilson and Curry have been first choice but for chance? He also has to have the Vunipolae stay fit- but then, players of their quality would be a big loss to anyone.

Maybe, but he deserves credit for exposing Curry and Underhill to test rugby well before most would have. He’s also played a big role in developing Sinckler into a very good international tighthead.

Not maybe, but yep on the upside. But there are a lot of minus points, reserve hooker, lawtoje just for two. Its his job to get more right than wrong- and I don't think he has, by and large.

[Banquo]

I'm the opposite. He can 'fire' passes to the left, but not the right; defences won't worry about him, and the back three consequently are nullified. He's a poor defender. But hey, lets go with it, as he's undroppable.

The thing about having Ford and Manu either side of him is that defenders not worrying about him is a feature, not a bug. If defenders drift wide to cover the wingers or charge up to cut off the pull-back, then Ford sends Manu on the short ball. If the defenders bite in on Manu, then Farrell goes round the corner (and he can run through a gap, contrary to popular opinion). The fact that he doesn't make breaks on his own very often becomes less relevant when Ford's doing all the decision-making.

I will give you the poor defending and the lower accuracy off his bad hand (although he has got better - nowadays it's more like 1 in 6 goes wrong, rather than 1 in 2), which is why I'd see if Slade could be converted or if Francis has the chops. However, neither of them are better international 12s at this precise moment and have flaws elsewhere, so if we're talking playing next month, I'm taking Fazlet.

Puja

Well you've tried to put lipstick on the pig, but IMO you've failed; for all the somewhat hypothetical upside (as in your assumed infallibility of the pull back to his run around), the downside is definitely there (defence, temperament, still being unable to pull off a decent spin pass left to right, no pace or step). He's a poor international 12, for all but a limited number of occasions. Accepting he has to be picked is accepting a severe limitation to a side that actually can do so much more. Especially when sticking him at 12.

[Puja]

I'm the opposite. He can 'fire' passes to the left, but not the right; defences won't worry about him, and the back three consequently are nullified. He's a poor defender. But hey, lets go with it, as he's undroppable.

The thing about having Ford and Manu either side of him is that defenders not worrying about him is a feature, not a bug. If defenders drift wide to cover the wingers or charge up to cut off the pull-back, then Ford sends Manu on the short ball. If the defenders bite in on Manu, then Farrell goes round the corner (and he can run through a gap, contrary to popular opinion). The fact that he doesn't make breaks on his own very often becomes less relevant when Ford's doing all the decision-making.

I will give you the poor defending and the lower accuracy off his bad hand (although he has got better - nowadays it's more like 1 in 6 goes wrong, rather than 1 in 2), which is why I'd see if Slade could be converted or if Francis has the chops. However, neither of them are better international 12s at this precise moment and have flaws elsewhere, so if we're talking playing next month, I'm taking Fazlet.

Puja

Well you've tried to put lipstick on the pig, but IMO you've failed; for all the somewhat hypothetical upside (as in your assumed infallibility of the pull back to his run around), the downside is definitely there (defence, temperament, still being unable to pull off a decent spin pass left to right, no pace or step). He's a poor international 12, for all but a limited number of occasions. Accepting he has to be picked is accepting a severe limitation to a side that actually can do so much more. Especially when sticking him at 12.

Fair enough and I can see why you don't like him. I just disagree - I think he is very effective as a second pivot behind Ford, as the extra time and the fewer decisions suit him and that axis has been responsible for our best attacking displays in over a decade. He's far from perfect, but if we had a perfect 12, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Puja

[Banquo]

The thing about having Ford and Manu either side of him is that defenders not worrying about him is a feature, not a bug. If defenders drift wide to cover the wingers or charge up to cut off the pull-back, then Ford sends Manu on the short ball. If the defenders bite in on Manu, then Farrell goes round the corner (and he can run through a gap, contrary to popular opinion). The fact that he doesn't make breaks on his own very often becomes less relevant when Ford's doing all the decision-making.

I will give you the poor defending and the lower accuracy off his bad hand (although he has got better - nowadays it's more like 1 in 6 goes wrong, rather than 1 in 2), which is why I'd see if Slade could be converted or if Francis has the chops. However, neither of them are better international 12s at this precise moment and have flaws elsewhere, so if we're talking playing next month, I'm taking Fazlet.

Puja

Well you've tried to put lipstick on the pig, but IMO you've failed; for all the somewhat hypothetical upside (as in your assumed infallibility of the pull back to his run around), the downside is definitely there (defence, temperament, still being unable to pull off a decent spin pass left to right, no pace or step). He's a poor international 12, for all but a limited number of occasions. Accepting he has to be picked is accepting a severe limitation to a side that actually can do so much more. Especially when sticking him at 12.

Fair enough and I can see why you don't like him. I just disagree - I think he is very effective as a second pivot behind Ford, as the extra time and the fewer decisions suit him and that axis has been responsible for our best attacking displays in over a decade. He's far from perfect, but if we had a perfect 12, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Puja

He is ok as a second distributor going one way, and that's it. I do worry how 50% of a centre's duties are ignored.
As to best attacking displays in a decade....I can't be bothered to look it up, but its a- not a high bar, and b- something else

Happy to disagree, though we aren't too far apart, you are just settling for what I want to improve markedly on.

[Puja]

Well you've tried to put lipstick on the pig, but IMO you've failed; for all the somewhat hypothetical upside (as in your assumed infallibility of the pull back to his run around), the downside is definitely there (defence, temperament, still being unable to pull off a decent spin pass left to right, no pace or step). He's a poor international 12, for all but a limited number of occasions. Accepting he has to be picked is accepting a severe limitation to a side that actually can do so much more. Especially when sticking him at 12.

Fair enough and I can see why you don't like him. I just disagree - I think he is very effective as a second pivot behind Ford, as the extra time and the fewer decisions suit him and that axis has been responsible for our best attacking displays in over a decade. He's far from perfect, but if we had a perfect 12, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Puja

He is ok as a second distributor going one way, and that's it. I do worry how 50% of a centre's duties are ignored.
As to best attacking displays in a decade....I can't be bothered to look it up, but its a- not a high bar, and b- something else

Happy to disagree, though we aren't too far apart, you are just settling for what I want to improve markedly on.

That pretty much sums it up!

So, flipping the question around, if you had carte blanche, who would you put in at 12 for the RWC next month?

Puja

[Banquo]

Fair enough and I can see why you don't like him. I just disagree - I think he is very effective as a second pivot behind Ford, as the extra time and the fewer decisions suit him and that axis has been responsible for our best attacking displays in over a decade. He's far from perfect, but if we had a perfect 12, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Puja

He is ok as a second distributor going one way, and that's it. I do worry how 50% of a centre's duties are ignored.
As to best attacking displays in a decade....I can't be bothered to look it up, but its a- not a high bar, and b- something else

Happy to disagree, though we aren't too far apart, you are just settling for what I want to improve markedly on.

That pretty much sums it up!

So, flipping the question around, if you had carte blanche, who would you put in at 12 for the RWC next month?

Puja

Slade, or Manu depending on how I wanted to play the game; both with JJ outside and Ford inside. For all me banging on about Slade not playing 12 for Chiefs, he does the role of a 2nd 5/8th (as shorthand) enough for it to not be too worrying with a bit of work; on Manu, I think if he has a top defender outside him, telling him what to do, he should be fine. Both would imo are likely a major upgrade on Faz at 12.

[Puja]

He is ok as a second distributor going one way, and that's it. I do worry how 50% of a centre's duties are ignored.
As to best attacking displays in a decade....I can't be bothered to look it up, but its a- not a high bar, and b- something else

Happy to disagree, though we aren't too far apart, you are just settling for what I want to improve markedly on.

That pretty much sums it up!

So, flipping the question around, if you had carte blanche, who would you put in at 12 for the RWC next month?

Puja

Slade, or Manu depending on how I wanted to play the game; both with JJ outside and Ford inside. For all me banging on about Slade not playing 12 for Chiefs, he does the role of a 2nd 5/8th (as shorthand) enough for it to not be too worrying with a bit of work; on Manu, I think if he has a top defender outside him, telling him what to do, he should be fine. Both would imo are likely a major upgrade on Faz at 12.

Not unfair, although I'm amused that you castigate Farrell for poor defence and passing and then would happily pick Manu there who is significantly worse in both aspects.

Puja

[Banquo]

That pretty much sums it up!

So, flipping the question around, if you had carte blanche, who would you put in at 12 for the RWC next month?

Puja

Slade, or Manu depending on how I wanted to play the game; both with JJ outside and Ford inside. For all me banging on about Slade not playing 12 for Chiefs, he does the role of a 2nd 5/8th (as shorthand) enough for it to not be too worrying with a bit of work; on Manu, I think if he has a top defender outside him, telling him what to do, he should be fine. Both would imo are likely a major upgrade on Faz at 12.

Not unfair, although I'm amused that you castigate Farrell for poor defence and passing and then would happily pick Manu there, who is significantly worse in both aspects.

Puja

Except I'm not asking him to do what you perceive Farrell's usp is in passing, and I don't think his defence is 'significantly worse' than Farrells (when Manu gets it right, its lethal and changes the play), and I did put in the caveat of saying JJ would help resolve that.

[Puja]

Slade, or Manu depending on how I wanted to play the game; both with JJ outside and Ford inside. For all me banging on about Slade not playing 12 for Chiefs, he does the role of a 2nd 5/8th (as shorthand) enough for it to not be too worrying with a bit of work; on Manu, I think if he has a top defender outside him, telling him what to do, he should be fine. Both would imo are likely a major upgrade on Faz at 12.

Not unfair, although I'm amused that you castigate Farrell for poor defence and passing and then would happily pick Manu there, who is significantly worse in both aspects.

Puja

Except I'm not asking him to do what you perceive Farrell's usp is in passing, and I don't think his defence is 'significantly worse' than Farrells (when Manu gets it right, its lethal and changes the play), and I did put in the caveat of saying JJ would help resolve that.

Speaking as a Leicester fan, Manu's defence is absolutely worse than Farrell's right now. When was the last time you saw him putting in a "change the play" intervention in defence (I mean for the benefit of his team, not changing the play by opening a hole for the attack)?

Farrell's USP at 12 is to be a second pivot in attack. It means our attack can't just be shut down by rushing Ford and I think we work better with another playmaking option at 12. I'd agree that Slade could be very good there, but I've yet to see it in action.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Yup. Really wish we’d given that a serious bash a few years back.

[Scrumhead]

It’s a shame Atkinson made his push a season or two too late.

I’d still rather he’d been in the mix than Te’o and he could have offered the right balance of size and playmaking ability. Ironically, it might have been better for us if he’d ripped it up for the Barbarians and made Eddie pick him like he did with Ashton.

I’m also surprised Devoto didn’t get a call up to the initial training squads.

[Banquo]

Not unfair, although I'm amused that you castigate Farrell for poor defence and passing and then would happily pick Manu there, who is significantly worse in both aspects.

Puja

Except I'm not asking him to do what you perceive Farrell's usp is in passing, and I don't think his defence is 'significantly worse' than Farrells (when Manu gets it right, its lethal and changes the play), and I did put in the caveat of saying JJ would help resolve that.

Speaking as a Leicester fan, Manu's defence is absolutely worse than Farrell's right now. When was the last time you saw him putting in a "change the play" intervention in defence (I mean for the benefit of his team, not changing the play by opening a hole for the attack)?

Farrell's USP at 12 is to be a second pivot in attack. It means our attack can't just be shut down by rushing Ford and I think we work better with another playmaking option at 12. I'd agree that Slade could be very good there, but I've yet to see it in action.

Puja

Well I've seen him close down attacks as late as last season in Tigers colours; besides, being in Tigers team in and of itself doesn't help. You went for 'significantly worse', and Faz's defence has been pretty woeful recently....so...

Farrells USP effectiveness depends on his passing being top notch, in the main, and its poor, still, right to left. I get the second playmaker mantra, but shoehorning an average player in there has been our problem for over a decade.

....and round and round we go. I won't be convinced that Faz is an intl class centre . Its all pretty moot as I don't think Eddie will go that route.

[Oakboy]

Yup. Really wish we’d given that a serious bash a few years back.

Within injury availability, had Slade played at 12 outside Ford in all the games that Farrell did, I doubt Farrell would now even be in the squad.

[Timbo]

It’s a shame Atkinson made his push a season or two too late.

I’d still rather he’d been in the mix than Te’o and he could have offered the right balance of size and playmaking ability. Ironically, it might have been better for us if he’d ripped it up for the Barbarians and made Eddie pick him like he did with Ashton.

I’m also surprised Devoto didn’t get a call up to the initial training squads.

I’m far from convinced about Atkinson’s ability to step up to international rugby. He’s a solid footballer, and at club level he is big enough to win a good number of collisions. When I’ve seen him play against top opposition, like Munster last year and a full strength Sarries, he’s been munched. To play in his style at 12 in test rugby you’ve got to be better athletically imo.

Devoto would be a much better bet in my mind.

[Timbo]

I think this “Manu/Te’o/Slade/Farrell defence is abysmal/woeful etc” is over egging the pudding personally. These guys are Test Lions, European Champions, Prem Champions and there’s circa 140 test caps between the 4 of them. They can all defend to a good standard as individuals. I get the argument Banquo made about chemistry, and that their natural defensive styles don’t necessarily compliment each other.

I think our style of constant ultra aggressive line speed, even when we’re numbers down, can leave us in a position where even slight decision making errors leaves us exposed. It can also force our centres, especially the 13, making particularly difficult side on tackles.

And there’s also the issue of cohesion, and that reintroducing the likes of Joseph and Ford alongside Manu and Slade will leave us with midfield combos that have barely played with each other.

[Digby]

Ford has played with both Manu and Joseph

[Digby]

Not unfair, although I'm amused that you castigate Farrell for poor defence and passing and then would happily pick Manu there, who is significantly worse in both aspects.

Puja

Except I'm not asking him to do what you perceive Farrell's usp is in passing, and I don't think his defence is 'significantly worse' than Farrells (when Manu gets it right, its lethal and changes the play), and I did put in the caveat of saying JJ would help resolve that.

Speaking as a Leicester fan, Manu's defence is absolutely worse than Farrell's right now. When was the last time you saw him putting in a "change the play" intervention in defence (I mean for the benefit of his team, not changing the play by opening a hole for the attack)?

Farrell's USP at 12 is to be a second pivot in attack. It means our attack can't just be shut down by rushing Ford and I think we work better with another playmaking option at 12. I'd agree that Slade could be very good there, but I've yet to see it in action.

Puja

Who just rushes the 10 if that's an advantage to Farrell at 12?

[Banquo]

I think this “Manu/Te’o/Slade/Farrell defence is abysmal/woeful etc” is over egging the pudding personally. These guys are Test Lions, European Champions, Prem Champions and there’s circa 140 test caps between the 4 of them. They can all defend to a good standard as individuals. I get the argument Banquo made about chemistry, and that their natural defensive styles don’t necessarily compliment each other.

I think our style of constant ultra aggressive line speed, even when we’re numbers down, can leave us in a position where even slight decision making errors leaves us exposed. It can also force our centres, especially the 13, making particularly difficult side on tackles.

And there’s also the issue of cohesion, and that reintroducing the likes of Joseph and Ford alongside Manu and Slade will leave us with midfield combos that have barely played with each other.

I....don't

And I don't think they are individually good defenders- even if good was an acceptable level. Farrell is a good scramble defender, but his one on one front on is just poor; Teo has dreadful footwork and is especially susceptible at 13 to outside breaks; Slade has improved markedly but still makes some poor calls; Manu looks a bit rooted to the spot with a foot plant. Another way of looking at it- and you make a good point about ultra aggressive line speed- is that they simply aren't suited to the defensive system Eddie wants. In all cases, their decision making isn't good enough internationally, imo.

[Scrumhead]

None of our players are good enough for Banquo. Let’s not bother with this World Cup business.

[Banquo]

None of our players are good enough for Banquo. Let’s not bother with this World Cup business.

How grown up. I apologise for criticising some of them, though I have said Mako, George, Sinckler, Kruis, Lawes, Itoje, Launchbury, Wilson, Curry, Billy, Underhill, Ford, May, JJ, Daly, and Watson are all excellent, and I like Manu and Slade, as well as Genge, Moon and Williams. So really I only have issues with 9 and some midfield options, and the over rated Farrell.

Oh and Marler and LCD are very good, bar arrows in the latter case.

[Scrumhead]

I just wanted to highlight how negatively your posts were coming across in what I thought was a lighthearted way.

[Puja]

Project Fear.

Puja

[Banquo]

I just wanted to highlight how negatively your posts were coming across in what I thought was a lighthearted way.

Righto. I was proposing solutions, not just criticising players. As a country, and as a board, we've settled for mediocrity for too long.

You should have seen what I was saying before the 2015 world cup.

Just skip my posts going forward if you don't like a less than positive vibe.

[Stom]

None of our players are good enough for Banquo. Let’s not bother with this World Cup business.

How grown up. I apologise for criticising some of them, though I have said Mako, George, Sinckler, Kruis, Lawes, Itoje, Launchbury, Wilson, Curry, Billy, Underhill, Ford, May, JJ, Daly, and Watson are all excellent, and I like Manu and Slade, as well as Genge, Moon and Williams. So really I only have issues with 9 and some midfield options, and the over rated Farrell.

Oh and Marler and LCD are very good, bar arrows in the latter case.

This is the only sensible way to see it, imo. Our inside backs are just shunt, Ford aside.

But the talent coming through is very good, we just need to give them a chance

Will the next head coach drop Farrell?

[Banquo]

None of our players are good enough for Banquo. Let’s not bother with this World Cup business.

How grown up. I apologise for criticising some of them, though I have said Mako, George, Sinckler, Kruis, Lawes, Itoje, Launchbury, Wilson, Curry, Billy, Underhill, Ford, May, JJ, Daly, and Watson are all excellent, and I like Manu and Slade, as well as Genge, Moon and Williams. So really I only have issues with 9 and some midfield options, and the over rated Farrell.

Oh and Marler and LCD are very good, bar arrows in the latter case.

This is the only sensible way to see it, imo. Our inside backs are just shunt, Ford aside.

But the talent coming through is very good, we just need to give them a chance

Will the next head coach drop Farrell?

There's a lot of talent knocking about across the board, and I'm more optimistic it will swim to the top than previously. Also, me and some others on this board are out of kilter with the rest of the (UK) rugby public with respect to Faz; Faz has improved a lot of his game at 10, but I still think we have better 10's....that is not the commonly held view outside this board.