England vs Wales match thread - RWC warmup, Raeburn Shield challenge, and chance to take down the #1 ranked team

[Digby]

5 locks and no established test standard 12, seems about right

[Puja]

On the bright side, Te'o's been dropped. I don't think anyone saw that coming.

Puja

How many are ‘in’ at the moment.

I took a bit of a hit for suggesting we might do better with a newish, though familiar midfield. Eddie has just lobbed in a totally new 9!

33 are left.

England squad to face Wales

Forwards: Dan Cole (Leicester), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter), Tom Curry (Sale), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jamie George (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Saracens), Sam Underhill (Bath), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter), Mark Wilson (Sale).

Backs: Joe Cokanasiga (Bath), Elliot Daly (Saracens), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester), Piers Francis (Northampton), Willi Heinz (Gloucester), Jonathan Joseph (Bath), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Leicester), Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath), Henry Slade (Exeter), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester), Anthony Watson (Bath), Ben Youngs (Leicester).

That lot, plus Nowell and Mako. I'm on my phone atm; does anyone fancy putting them into position order?

Puja

[Oakboy]

33 names for this game and it has to be reduced to 31 with one or two to possibly come back in (Shields and Nowell?). So, up to 4 of those named still could miss out.

[Puja]

5 locks and no established test standard 12, seems about right

Let's be fair, we didn't have one of those before Te'o was dropped either.

5 locks suggests Lawtoje is the backup 6 if Shields doesn't make it, which beggars belief.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

That lot, plus Nowell and Mako. I'm on my phone atm; does anyone fancy putting them into position order?

LHP: Joe Marler, Mako Vunipola, Ellis Genge
HK: Jamie George, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Jack Singleton
THP: Kyle Sinckler, Harry Williams, Dan Cole
LK: Maro Itoje, George Kruis, Courtney Lawes, Joe Launchbury, Charlie Ewels
FL: Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Mark Wilson, Lewis Ludlam, (Shields)
#8: Billy Vunipola

SH: Ben Youngs, Willi Heinz, (Spencer)
FH: Owen Farrell, George Ford
CE: Jonathan Joseph, Henry Slade, Manu Tuilagi, Piers Francis, Joe Marchant, (Te'o)
WG: Jonny May, Joe Cokanasiga, Ruaridh McConnochie, (Jack Nowell)
FB: Elliot Daly, Anthony Watson, (Brown)

I think there's a few to be culled from there.
Ewels won't go barring injury.
Ludlam is unlikely to be nailed on just yet, but obviously favourite in his battle with Dombrandt
Surely, even Eddie will want 3 SHs - it's just too much of a handicap if one of them simply pulls a hamstring
Even with Te'o left out of this squad, I can't see Francis or Marchant going barring injury.
Ruaridh versus Jack for the final back3 slot?

[Digby]

Watson should really play 15 before not being listed as a winger

[Which Tyler]

Watson should really play 15 before not being listed as a winger

If only he had as much gametime there as Daly... oh well, I guess we'll never know

[Scrumhead]

Come come why do negative

F that. I’m joining your club.

Heinz over Spencer and Ludlam over Dombrandt has tipped me over the edge.

[Digby]

We're not carrying too many backrowers given the size of the squad, if you want Dombrandt drop Ewels not Ludlam

[Mellsblue]

Ffs.

This.

[Mikey Brown]

I've heard Ludlam's name thrown about for a while but not actually seen him do much. Has he had an impressive season? I thought early on he was looking very good for Gloucester, then realised that was Ludlow.

[Oakboy]

So, cutting down W-T's list are we looking at this for the 31:

LHP: Joe Marler, Mako Vunipola, Ellis Genge
HK: Jamie George, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Jack Singleton
THP: Kyle Sinckler, Harry Williams, Dan Cole
LK: Maro Itoje, George Kruis, Courtney Lawes, Joe Launchbury
FL: Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Mark Wilson
#8: Billy Vunipola

SH: Ben Youngs, Willi Heinz, Spencer
FH: Owen Farrell, George Ford
CE: Jonathan Joseph, Henry Slade, Manu Tuilagi, Piers Francis
WG: Jonny May, Joe Cokanasiga, Jack Nowell
FB: Elliot Daly, Anthony Watson

Or, do we lose a back for another flanker?

[fivepointer]

We'll have to take 5 back rowers.
That means you have to take a bit of a chance somewhere and go with 2 SH's, 2 out of 3 front rowers or maybe 3 centres.
Having a few players who can play in more than one position is vital in a squad of 31.

[Banquo]

Come come why do negative

F that. I’m joining your club.

Heinz over Spencer and Ludlam over Dombrandt has tipped me over the edge.

it only helps manage your own expectations.

Heinz is a ludicrous selection for at least two reasons.

[Banquo]

So, cutting down W-T's list are we looking at this for the 31:

LHP: Joe Marler, Mako Vunipola, Ellis Genge
HK: Jamie George, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Jack Singleton
THP: Kyle Sinckler, Harry Williams, Dan Cole
LK: Maro Itoje, George Kruis, Courtney Lawes, Joe Launchbury
FL: Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Mark Wilson
#8: Billy Vunipola

SH: Ben Youngs, Willi Heinz, Spencer
FH: Owen Farrell, George Ford
CE: Jonathan Joseph, Henry Slade, Manu Tuilagi, Piers Francis
WG: Jonny May, Joe Cokanasiga, Jack Nowell
FB: Elliot Daly, Anthony Watson

Or, do we lose a back for another flanker?

Not sure why you've put Spencer in?

[morepork]

Geez, your back row aren't going to have too many caps between them come the Cup are they?

[Puja]

We'll have to take 5 back rowers.
That means you have to take a bit of a chance somewhere and go with 2 SH's, 2 out of 3 front rowers or maybe 3 centres.
Having a few players who can play in more than one position is vital in a squad of 31.

3 centres, definitely. Faz can play there, Daly can play there, Nowell can play there - it's not a position in which we need a 4th specialist.

Puja

[Puja]

Geez, your back row aren't going to have too many caps between them come the Cup are they?

4 warm up games.

Not really something I'm hugely worried about as it's mostly a product of young talented flankers breaking through late. Wilson will have 13-17, TCurry 10-14, Underhill 7-11, and BillyV with 41-45. Rather them than go back to the likes of Haskell and Shields, even if it is criminal that Robshaw's not taking the 5th spot.

Puja

[Banquo]

We'll have to take 5 back rowers.
That means you have to take a bit of a chance somewhere and go with 2 SH's, 2 out of 3 front rowers or maybe 3 centres.
Having a few players who can play in more than one position is vital in a squad of 31.

3 centres, definitely. Faz can play there, Daly can play there, Nowell can play there - it's not a position in which we need a 4th specialist.

Puja

Is this wind up Banquo day??

actually, I agree in this case. Though the selection says Manu starts at 12, unless Eddie does a complete u turn on Faz.

[morepork]

Geez, your back row aren't going to have too many caps between them come the Cup are they?

4 warm up games.

Not really something I'm hugely worried about as it's mostly a product of young talented flankers breaking through late. Wilson will have 13-17, TCurry 10-14, Underhill 7-11, and BillyV with 41-45. Rather them than go back to the likes of Haskell and Shields, even if it is criminal that Robshaw's not taking the 5th spot.

Puja

Oh, I agree. It could be penalty city if the captain doesn't take charge though. They are going to be coming up against some styles of refereeing that they may not be familiar with.

[Scrumhead]

To be fair, I don’t think our flankers are notable penalty magnets.

Itoje will give away a lot more for example.

[Puja]

Geez, your back row aren't going to have too many caps between them come the Cup are they?

4 warm up games.

Not really something I'm hugely worried about as it's mostly a product of young talented flankers breaking through late. Wilson will have 13-17, TCurry 10-14, Underhill 7-11, and BillyV with 41-45. Rather them than go back to the likes of Haskell and Shields, even if it is criminal that Robshaw's not taking the 5th spot.

Puja

Oh, I agree. It could be penalty city if the captain doesn't take charge though. They are going to be coming up against some styles of refereeing that they may not be familiar with.

Thankfully, we have the best captain in the world, so we'll be fine.

We'll have to take 5 back rowers.
That means you have to take a bit of a chance somewhere and go with 2 SH's, 2 out of 3 front rowers or maybe 3 centres.
Having a few players who can play in more than one position is vital in a squad of 31.

3 centres, definitely. Faz can play there, Daly can play there, Nowell can play there - it's not a position in which we need a 4th specialist.

Puja

Is this wind up Banquo day??

actually, I agree in this case. Though the selection says Manu starts at 12, unless Eddie does a complete u turn on Faz.

Every day is wind up Banquo day.

Mind, just to raise your blood pressure a touch more, the last England game saw the Faz+Bosh axis collapse and the escape masterminded by Ford coming on and playing a blinder, much like the first Australia test in 2016, which was followed by a complete u-turn and the Ford-Faz combo being implemented. So let's not rule it out.

Puja

[morepork]

To be fair, I don’t think our flankers are notable penalty magnets.

Itoje will give away a lot more for example.

But they are pretty keen, which can piss some refs off for no logical reason at the wrong time.

None are in the class of Shouty McShout-Shout though. Can you put one of those 'lectric dog collars on him so when he starts screaming at the opposition throw in, someone on the sideline can give him a few volts to STFU?

[Oakboy]

So, cutting down W-T's list are we looking at this for the 31:

LHP: Joe Marler, Mako Vunipola, Ellis Genge
HK: Jamie George, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Jack Singleton
THP: Kyle Sinckler, Harry Williams, Dan Cole
LK: Maro Itoje, George Kruis, Courtney Lawes, Joe Launchbury
FL: Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Mark Wilson
#8: Billy Vunipola

SH: Ben Youngs, Willi Heinz, Spencer
FH: Owen Farrell, George Ford
CE: Jonathan Joseph, Henry Slade, Manu Tuilagi, Piers Francis
WG: Jonny May, Joe Cokanasiga, Jack Nowell
FB: Elliot Daly, Anthony Watson

Or, do we lose a back for another flanker?

Not sure why you've put Spencer in?

You think we will go with two SHs, one of them an international novice?

[Raggs]

If we go with Youngs and Heinz, that's 50% international novice. If we go Youngs, Spencer and Heinz, that's basically 66% international novice.