England vs Wales match thread - RWC warmup, Raeburn Shield challenge, and chance to take down the #1 ranked team

[twitchy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49255731

[Puja]

TBH, I don’t recall Spencer having any poor games last season. Of course there are some that we’re better than others, but none that were outright bad.

I don’t think Heinz is terrible and I think he will do OK, but I think Spencer is a better player who is regularly starting high pressure games for the best team in Europe.

Like Stom, I’d far rather have seen Care or Robson, but I’d suggest that Heinz inclusion is about having a ‘controlling’ scrum half rather than a more attacking option. That worries me re. the style of rugby we’re looking to play.

A lot of Spencer's passing would draw some serious ire if it was Youngs flopping the ball around like that

As Digby says. He also got caught at the base far too often for playing behind a pack like Saracens and his kicking was erratic (probably the real reason behind Eddie's preference for Heinz). Even when he was in good form at the end of the season, he was no more than solid in the championship matches and was replaced early on by Wigglesworth in all three.

I'm not championing Heinz in any way, just noting that dropping Spencer isn't a travesty of justice, just an inditement of our scrum-half selections having got us into this Hobson's choice in the first place.

Anyone else wondering if Ben Youngs made a wish on a monkey's paw to be "the most important rugby player to England"? Cause we're proper f*cked if he goes down injured in the next month or two, more so than anyone else on the team.

Puja

[Beasties]

On a positive side I’m hoping that Ludlum gets a chance in the warm ups - I think he may develop into a Moody style player who can play at 6 or 7 plus he might be able to inject some much needed pace into our back row. Don’t get me wrong Underhill and Curry are not slouches but neither are exactly jet propelled either - Ludlum May have a slight edge here?

You may be onto something there jngf. May would inject a lot of pace and he's played there before

[Mikey Brown]

TBH, I don’t recall Spencer having any poor games last season. Of course there are some that we’re better than others, but none that were outright bad.

I don’t think Heinz is terrible and I think he will do OK, but I think Spencer is a better player who is regularly starting high pressure games for the best team in Europe.

Like Stom, I’d far rather have seen Care or Robson, but I’d suggest that Heinz inclusion is about having a ‘controlling’ scrum half rather than a more attacking option. That worries me re. the style of rugby we’re looking to play.

A lot of Spencer's passing would draw some serious ire if it was Youngs flopping the ball around like that

As Digby says. He also got caught at the base far too often for playing behind a pack like Saracens and his kicking was erratic (probably the real reason behind Eddie's preference for Heinz). Even when he was in good form at the end of the season, he was no more than solid in the championship matches and was replaced early on by Wigglesworth in all three.

I'm not championing Heinz in any way, just noting that dropping Spencer isn't a travesty of justice, just an inditement of our scrum-half selections having got us into this Hobson's choice in the first place.

Anyone else wondering if Ben Youngs made a wish on a monkey's paw to be "the most important rugby player to England"? Cause we're proper f*cked if he goes down injured in the next month or two, more so than anyone else on the team.

Puja

It's quite something to consider Youngs basically the most important player and simultaneously the first one I would replace if I was able to.

[Oakboy]

It's quite something to consider Youngs basically the most important player and simultaneously the first one I would replace if I was able to.

How far down the list of the world's top sides do you have to go to find a worse SH? And, how many better ones has Wales got?

[Digby]

It's quite something to consider Youngs basically the most important player and simultaneously the first one I would replace if I was able to.

How far down the list of the world's top sides do you have to go to find a worse SH? And, how many better ones has Wales got?

NZ, Aus and Ireland are better at 9, not sure after that is anyone is better rather than different, which leaves Wales has having none that are as such better but also probably not much worse.

[Puja]

It's quite something to consider Youngs basically the most important player and simultaneously the first one I would replace if I was able to.

How far down the list of the world's top sides do you have to go to find a worse SH? And, how many better ones has Wales got?

Good question. Let's go down the list:

New Zealand, Wales, Ireland, South Africa easily beat us. Australia might be a discussion, depending on if Nic White is now their first choice. Scotland, France - gods, I wish we had one of the French 9s. Fiji is the first one where you'd say confidently that you'd rather have Youngs, and even then, they're followed by Argentina and Japan who both have better.

Puja

[Digby]

It's quite something to consider Youngs basically the most important player and simultaneously the first one I would replace if I was able to.

How far down the list of the world's top sides do you have to go to find a worse SH? And, how many better ones has Wales got?

Good question. Let's go down the list:

New Zealand, Wales, Ireland, South Africa easily beat us. Australia might be a discussion, depending on if Nic White is now their first choice. Scotland, France - gods, I wish we had one of the French 9s. Fiji is the first one where you'd say confidently that you'd rather have Youngs, and even then, they're followed by Argentina and Japan who both have better.

Puja

Not even close to agreeing on Wales and SA. Faf was out played by Youngs in our last series against them, or perhaps put better after a brilliant first game Faf rather went to pieces and hit much lower standards than Youngs, and Wales would probably make a decent case that Webb is better, but not Davies, and they refuse to pick Webb so they're not really bringing their best

[Numbers]

How far down the list of the world's top sides do you have to go to find a worse SH? And, how many better ones has Wales got?

Good question. Let's go down the list:

New Zealand, Wales, Ireland, South Africa easily beat us. Australia might be a discussion, depending on if Nic White is now their first choice. Scotland, France - gods, I wish we had one of the French 9s. Fiji is the first one where you'd say confidently that you'd rather have Youngs, and even then, they're followed by Argentina and Japan who both have better.

Puja

Not even close to agreeing on Wales and SA. Faf was out played by Youngs in our last series against them, or perhaps put better after a brilliant first game Faf rather went to pieces and hit much lower standards than Youngs, and Wales would probably make a decent case that Webb is better, but not Davies, and they refuse to pick Webb so they're not really bringing their best

I'd say Williams and Davies are better then Youngs, Faf De Clerk is a much better player, you can't judge players on a single game or out of the context of the game, Reinach is also ahead of Youngs.

[Danno]

How far down the list of the world's top sides do you have to go to find a worse SH? And, how many better ones has Wales got?

Good question. Let's go down the list:

New Zealand, Wales, Ireland, South Africa easily beat us. Australia might be a discussion, depending on if Nic White is now their first choice. Scotland, France - gods, I wish we had one of the French 9s. Fiji is the first one where you'd say confidently that you'd rather have Youngs, and even then, they're followed by Argentina and Japan who both have better.

Puja

Not even close to agreeing on Wales and SA. Faf was out played by Youngs in our last series against them, or perhaps put better after a brilliant first game Faf rather went to pieces and hit much lower standards than Youngs, and Wales would probably make a decent case that Webb is better, but not Davies, and they refuse to pick Webb so they're not really bringing their best

Watch Herschel Jantjies in the highlights v the All Blacks in their match the week before last.

[Puja]

How far down the list of the world's top sides do you have to go to find a worse SH? And, how many better ones has Wales got?

Good question. Let's go down the list:

New Zealand, Wales, Ireland, South Africa easily beat us. Australia might be a discussion, depending on if Nic White is now their first choice. Scotland, France - gods, I wish we had one of the French 9s. Fiji is the first one where you'd say confidently that you'd rather have Youngs, and even then, they're followed by Argentina and Japan who both have better.

Puja

Not even close to agreeing on Wales and SA. Faf was out played by Youngs in our last series against them, or perhaps put better after a brilliant first game Faf rather went to pieces and hit much lower standards than Youngs, and Wales would probably make a decent case that Webb is better, but not Davies, and they refuse to pick Webb so they're not really bringing their best

I think you have a significantly higher opinion of Youngs than I do. When he's in form, I'd agree with you. As of what he was showing for Leicester and in the 6N, he's nowhere near Davies or Faf.

Puja

[Digby]

Good question. Let's go down the list:

New Zealand, Wales, Ireland, South Africa easily beat us. Australia might be a discussion, depending on if Nic White is now their first choice. Scotland, France - gods, I wish we had one of the French 9s. Fiji is the first one where you'd say confidently that you'd rather have Youngs, and even then, they're followed by Argentina and Japan who both have better.

Puja

Not even close to agreeing on Wales and SA. Faf was out played by Youngs in our last series against them, or perhaps put better after a brilliant first game Faf rather went to pieces and hit much lower standards than Youngs, and Wales would probably make a decent case that Webb is better, but not Davies, and they refuse to pick Webb so they're not really bringing their best

I'd say Williams and Davies are better then Youngs, Faf De Clerk is a much better player, you can't judge players on a single game or out of the context of the game, Reinach is also ahead of Youngs.

They're all much of a muchness, with plenty of iffy decision making, technique and execution for us lot not good enough to play at such levels to carp on about. And in fairness for all Youngs is rather annoying at times people overlook there's plenty to like about Youngs, and quite a bit of what frustrates is him doing what Jones is asking him to do

And England are a work in progress on presenting and playing our own ball. We can still struggle more than makes sense on the back of positive carries to play the ball quickly. Youngs is annoying at times as he can get his footwork a little messed up approaching the ball, there are moments in when he's making good pick ups but getting driven backwards, or he's actually got a good pickup which would enable a fast open side pass and then he's needing to run blind, and that's not all on Youngs, not even close

[Digby]

Good question. Let's go down the list:

New Zealand, Wales, Ireland, South Africa easily beat us. Australia might be a discussion, depending on if Nic White is now their first choice. Scotland, France - gods, I wish we had one of the French 9s. Fiji is the first one where you'd say confidently that you'd rather have Youngs, and even then, they're followed by Argentina and Japan who both have better.

Puja

Not even close to agreeing on Wales and SA. Faf was out played by Youngs in our last series against them, or perhaps put better after a brilliant first game Faf rather went to pieces and hit much lower standards than Youngs, and Wales would probably make a decent case that Webb is better, but not Davies, and they refuse to pick Webb so they're not really bringing their best

I think you have a significantly higher opinion of Youngs than I do. When he's in form, I'd agree with you. As of what he was showing for Leicester and in the 6N, he's nowhere near Davies or Faf.

Puja

I think he's popular to pick on, and he's much better than some players who're rated by some as ahead of him. And many of his failings, real or otherwise, are things ignored on players rated as his peers or better.

[p/d]

Bloody hell Foden. Didn’t know you were divorced let alone holding hands across the Atlantic.

[Puja]

Not even close to agreeing on Wales and SA. Faf was out played by Youngs in our last series against them, or perhaps put better after a brilliant first game Faf rather went to pieces and hit much lower standards than Youngs, and Wales would probably make a decent case that Webb is better, but not Davies, and they refuse to pick Webb so they're not really bringing their best

I think you have a significantly higher opinion of Youngs than I do. When he's in form, I'd agree with you. As of what he was showing for Leicester and in the 6N, he's nowhere near Davies or Faf.

Puja

I think he's popular to pick on, and he's much better than some players who're rated by some as ahead of him. And many of his failings, real or otherwise, are things ignored on players rated as his peers or better.

I'll agree that he's popular to pick on, and he's better than some of the players rated as ahead of him, and that his failings are things ignored in his competitors. Robson and Spencer especially get away with murder by virtue of not being Ben Youngs.

However, to my mind, he's definitely below De Klerk, Reinach, and Davies on current form. Shadow of his former self. Hopefully a good off and pre-season will have revitalised him.

Puja

[Digby]

I think you have a significantly higher opinion of Youngs than I do. When he's in form, I'd agree with you. As of what he was showing for Leicester and in the 6N, he's nowhere near Davies or Faf.

Puja

I think he's popular to pick on, and he's much better than some players who're rated by some as ahead of him. And many of his failings, real or otherwise, are things ignored on players rated as his peers or better.

I'll agree that he's popular to pick on, and he's better than some of the players rated as ahead of him, and that his failings are things ignored in his competitors. Robson and Spencer especially get away with murder by virtue of not being Ben Youngs.

However, to my mind, he's definitely below De Klerk, Reinach, and Davies on current form. Shadow of his former self. Hopefully a good off and pre-season will have revitalised him.

Puja

Why is he definitely below De Klerk when in the series they played Youngs was the better player (or least worse), Reinach is barely a feature at test averaging maybe a game a season, and Davies has plenty of holes in his game, that match we lost to Wales could easily have seen Davies excoriated if England had a 10 with the vision of Stevie Wonder (and a willingness and permission to actually play what was in front of him)?

Maybe some of those players are marginally ahead of Yonugs, but I'm sticking with they're a bit different rather than the others are just better as is the case with someone like Smith

[Banquo]

Bloody hell Foden. Didn’t know you were divorced let alone holding hands across the Atlantic.

all these years of support and he does this to us!

[p/d]

Bloody hell Foden. Didn’t know you were divorced let alone holding hands across the Atlantic.

all these years of support and he does this to us!

I know!!! I feel wronged................ mind you the writing was on the wall the moment he opted to further his rugby playing days by championing the 'bob'

[Puja]

I think he's popular to pick on, and he's much better than some players who're rated by some as ahead of him. And many of his failings, real or otherwise, are things ignored on players rated as his peers or better.

I'll agree that he's popular to pick on, and he's better than some of the players rated as ahead of him, and that his failings are things ignored in his competitors. Robson and Spencer especially get away with murder by virtue of not being Ben Youngs.

However, to my mind, he's definitely below De Klerk, Reinach, and Davies on current form. Shadow of his former self. Hopefully a good off and pre-season will have revitalised him.

Puja

Why is he definitely below De Klerk when in the series they played Youngs was the better player (or least worse), Reinach is barely a feature at test averaging maybe a game a season, and Davies has plenty of holes in his game, that match we lost to Wales could easily have seen Davies excoriated if England had a 10 with the vision of Stevie Wonder (and a willingness and permission to actually play what was in front of him)?

Maybe some of those players are marginally ahead of Yonugs, but I'm sticking with they're a bit different rather than the others are just better as is the case with someone like Smith

I'm not sure how you got Youngs being the better player in the series - De Klerk was significantly better first match, they were both okayish in the second and then De Klerk didn't play in the third. Comparing Youngs to Reinach and De Klerk is made substantially easier by the fact that they all play in the Premiership and Youngs has been roundly outperformed by both of them the past couple of seasons.

Davies I will give you to a certain extent, although he has more upsides than downsides in his current form. One bad test doesn't make a bad player.

Puja

[Stom]

Yeah, I think the Welsh scrummies look better than they are thanks to the system.

[Oakboy]

I struggle to remember a game where Youngs played at HIS best level for the whole game. Arguing about his best level has to take account of Farrell at 10 of course but Youngs is definitely less effective than he was a few years back. Early on, when Jones got a reasonably useful stint out of Youngs for 60 minutes and used Care for 20, there was a degree of competitiveness. If Youngs had a top quality delivery it would be different but he hasn't. His sniping runs used to compensate but where have they gone?

To be in a position where we are relying on him to deliver beggars belief simply because he hasn't based on the last 2 or 3 years.

[Scrumhead]

Yep. I feel the same.

I don’t think he’s quite as bad as we make out, but it’s a long time since he’s been at his best.

The sniping runs that used to be his point of difference seem to have pretty much disappeared. Is that at Eddie’s request?

[Mellsblue]

We must be the only team in the world that becomes less attacking as they ‘mature’. Most teams build the basics and then expand. Not us.

[Mellsblue]

We must be the only squad in the world that becomes less settled as they ‘mature’. Most squads build experience and continuity as they move towards the World Cup. Not us, we look good one/two years out and gradually go downhill until we sh!t the bed (or, in the case of this year, the futon) at the World Cup.

[Danno]

Yep. I feel the same.

I don’t think he’s quite as bad as we make out, but it’s a long time since he’s been at his best.

The sniping runs that used to be his point of difference seem to have pretty much disappeared. Is that at Eddie’s request?

He's been pretty shunt for ages. I seem to remember him picking up a major injury that left him out of the 6N in 2014 and he doesn't ever really seem to have been the same since, but a shocking lack of options in the interim has us where we are.

I'm sure I've banged on about our development of English 9s in this very forum before (and I'm banned from mentioning it in my social circle) but am at the point where I just can't be arsed anymore, unless and until some decent ones start to emerge. It's utterly baffling.