On and Off the Plane

[Danno]

What was it Francis did badly?

I've got to say I totally forgot he was playing at the time, which could mean anything.

Again, it was highlights and I've switched the PC off to check, but there was a huge miss-pass that saw (I think) Daly bundled into touch, the missed tackle earlyish on that got Wales about 40metres and a ruck inspection that gained Wales an advantage. Happy to re-cite all of this properly tomorrow. Could be highlights being highlights.

[Banquo]

Itoje’s developed into powerful carrier and perhaps that could be used off the base of the scrum (should the need for a replacement 8 arise)? - especially as Eddy’s only taken one specialist 8.

so how does his mobility get transformed now as an 8, given he'll need to be athletic to control, pick up and then mobile to accelerate from the base. I'm sure you know there is a bit more to being an 8 as well, and surely his failings as a 6 (in your eyes) will be equally true in the loose as an 8? Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean by mobile?

I’m talking about mobility in the sense of nimbly getting across the pack to be one of the first players to track and be closest to the ball - all things being equal, a blindside flanker is likely to be need to be better at this than a no.8 - which is why I’d not pick Itoje or Billy as a blindside flanker at test level.

Think you need to have word with Parisse and Read. Seems to me an 8 should be athletic and mobile, and dextrous.

[Digby]

I still think it’s worth trying him there, if only in d. He proved in 80 mins yesterday that he’s far superior under the high ball; though, anyone who watched him at club level would already know that. Why not station him at 15 in defence and Daly at 15 in attack. As smooth a runner as Daly is, I feel Watson is more dangerous. Further, if Watson returns and finds himself at the bottom of the ruck then Daly is another playmaker, rather than himself being stuck at the bottom of a ruck.

If Watson is as bad as before then we just go back to Daly at 15. One match won’t hurt.

We specifically look to hit Daly on the counter, and if Watson is stood there on defence then we can't find Daly with turnover ball as easily. You might conclude you want to do it anyway, but there are problems even before (again) Watson hasn't looked without issue at 15 for England

If we’re talking counter off a territory kick I’d just rather have Watson returning. If we’re talking of a contestable kick I’d rather have Watson contesting. If we’re talking breakdown steal then I suspect Farell/Ford and Joseph/Slade would be your preferred distributor with the fullback hitting the line, which I’d rather be Watson.
All that said, I’d just rather Daly looked like a world class player again which, for me, means going back to 11. Simply out, I believe 11 Daly & 15 Watson > 14 Watson & 15 Daly.

I'm merely noting in practice, as opposed to the perfectly fine theory of Watson at 15, and even with Slade and Farrell in the side that if we turn ball over in the tackle or the ruck that Youngs gets the ball to Daly asap, he doesn't even look for Farrell - though I'm sure Youngs would pass to them if got a shout from Farrell or Slade

I'm not averse to trying Watson at 15, though I don't get simply trying it once and then going back if it's determined it doesn't work, and Watson at 15 is only theory at this point as far as England goes.

[Mellsblue]

Ideally, I’d like us to try Watson at 15 too. The only problem with moving Daly back to the wing is that he and May both prefer to play on the left. Watson seems to be a bit more flexible playing on the left or the right.

I think you’ve got to play Daly on the left. He’s the least experienced wing of the two and should get preference. He’s also shown in the Lions series that he can do it against top oppo in pressure games. May also has experience on the right.....that try against NZ when he came of the right wing. Lovely. There’s also that Daly is left footed and May right.

[Digby]

so how does his mobility get transformed now as an 8, given he'll need to be athletic to control, pick up and then mobile to accelerate from the base. I'm sure you know there is a bit more to being an 8 as well, and surely his failings as a 6 (in your eyes) will be equally true in the loose as an 8? Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean by mobile?

I’m talking about mobility in the sense of nimbly getting across the pack to be one of the first players to track and be closest to the ball - all things being equal, a blindside flanker is likely to be need to be better at this than a no.8 - which is why I’d not pick Itoje or Billy as a blindside flanker at test level.

Think you need to have word with Parisse and Read. Seems to me an 8 should be athletic and mobile, and dextrous.

And yet I'd still pick Picamoles in many sides, so they don't have to that athletic and mobile. He is a little unusual though in his ability to make ground whilst on a stroll, and his offloads are excellent

[Digby]

Ideally, I’d like us to try Watson at 15 too. The only problem with moving Daly back to the wing is that he and May both prefer to play on the left. Watson seems to be a bit more flexible playing on the left or the right.

I think you’ve got to play Daly on the left. He’s the least experienced wing of the two and should get preference. He’s also shown in the Lions series that he can do it against top oppo in pressure games. May also has experience on the right.....that try against NZ when he came of the right wing. Lovely. There’s also that Daly is left footed and May right.

Does May kick? I've got him down as an unco

[Danno]

I’m talking about mobility in the sense of nimbly getting across the pack to be one of the first players to track and be closest to the ball - all things being equal, a blindside flanker is likely to be need to be better at this than a no.8 - which is why I’d not pick Itoje or Billy as a blindside flanker at test level.

Think you need to have word with Parisse and Read. Seems to me an 8 should be athletic and mobile, and dextrous.

And yet I'd still pick Picamoles in many sides, so they don't have to that athletic and mobile. He is a little unusual though in his ability to make ground whilst on a stroll, and his offloads are excellent

Should check out whether he has an English grandmother and sign him up to FB asap

[Mellsblue]

We specifically look to hit Daly on the counter, and if Watson is stood there on defence then we can't find Daly with turnover ball as easily. You might conclude you want to do it anyway, but there are problems even before (again) Watson hasn't looked without issue at 15 for England

If we’re talking counter off a territory kick I’d just rather have Watson returning. If we’re talking of a contestable kick I’d rather have Watson contesting. If we’re talking breakdown steal then I suspect Farell/Ford and Joseph/Slade would be your preferred distributor with the fullback hitting the line, which I’d rather be Watson.
All that said, I’d just rather Daly looked like a world class player again which, for me, means going back to 11. Simply out, I believe 11 Daly & 15 Watson > 14 Watson & 15 Daly.

I'm merely noting in practice, as opposed to the perfectly fine theory of Watson at 15, and even with Slade and Farrell in the side that if we turn ball over in the tackle or the ruck that Youngs gets the ball to Daly asap, he doesn't even look for Farrell - though I'm sure Youngs would pass to them if got a shout from Farrell or Slade

I'm not averse to trying Watson at 15, though I don't get simply trying it once and then going back if it's determined it doesn't work, and Watson at 15 is only theory at this point as far as England goes.

I’ve not noticed it but I’ve no idea why we’d go to Daly rather than Slade and Farrell (ok, I can understand why not Farrell but bypassing your 10 when looking to counter seems counterintuitive) and I’m therefore not really enamoured with idea of keeping Daly at 15 just to keep that particular tactic. He also had a bit of a roaming brief when at 11 so could still pop up there from time to time.
I’m not suggesting we only give Watson one game at 15. I said at least give him one game, ie worst case scenario. I’d give him all three warmup games and Tonga.

[Banquo]

Watson does at least play there regularly for his club, despite WT’s protestations to the contrary, and would maybe look the part as a test 15 if given a run as long as Daly. I’m not sure anyone is saying Watson will be Cullen MkII as soon as he puts on a white 15 shirt. Rather, he’d be a better 15 than Daly, who could go back to becoming a world class wing.

I agree, but ol' diggers is right to point out its far from a slam dunk, and it would be good to actually get some proof . He also may have got that run, despite the Ireland game, but for getting crocked.

I think he has proved his defence is better than Daley's also his ability to field the high ball, other than positioning and counterattacking that is the crux of a 15s game, and the kicking of course but then England mostly run the ball back.

You have pointed out the key bits that need the proof tho- position and counter; unfortunately Watson did have a blip under the high ball v Ireland in one of his three games at 15. I would play him there, but as I said, its not quite as obvious an upgrade when I think about it; but I am worried about Daly's backfield play without the ball.

[Mellsblue]

Ideally, I’d like us to try Watson at 15 too. The only problem with moving Daly back to the wing is that he and May both prefer to play on the left. Watson seems to be a bit more flexible playing on the left or the right.

I think you’ve got to play Daly on the left. He’s the least experienced wing of the two and should get preference. He’s also shown in the Lions series that he can do it against top oppo in pressure games. May also has experience on the right.....that try against NZ when he came of the right wing. Lovely. There’s also that Daly is left footed and May right.

Does May kick? I've got him down as an unco

Usually, you’d suggest it to him as a last resort. That said, didn’t he put through a grabber for Slade to score in the 6N, possibly against Ireland, ironically off his left foot, I think.

[Banquo]

I’m talking about mobility in the sense of nimbly getting across the pack to be one of the first players to track and be closest to the ball - all things being equal, a blindside flanker is likely to be need to be better at this than a no.8 - which is why I’d not pick Itoje or Billy as a blindside flanker at test level.

Think you need to have word with Parisse and Read. Seems to me an 8 should be athletic and mobile, and dextrous.

And yet I'd still pick Picamoles in many sides, so they don't have to that athletic and mobile. He is a little unusual though in his ability to make ground whilst on a stroll, and his offloads are excellent

Perhaps should have added dynamic and ideally when I said athletic and mobile; and Picamoles is unusual and frankly a bit of an underachiever imo given his ability to make ground strolling. But I'm surprised you'd pick Itoje at 8.

[Banquo]

I think you’ve got to play Daly on the left. He’s the least experienced wing of the two and should get preference. He’s also shown in the Lions series that he can do it against top oppo in pressure games. May also has experience on the right.....that try against NZ when he came of the right wing. Lovely. There’s also that Daly is left footed and May right.

Does May kick? I've got him down as an unco

Usually, you’d suggest it to him as a last resort. That said, didn’t he put through a grabber for Slade to score in the 6N, possibly against Ireland, ironically off his left foot, I think.

wasn't that Daly?

[Mellsblue]

Does May kick? I've got him down as an unco

Usually, you’d suggest it to him as a last resort. That said, didn’t he put through a grabber for Slade to score in the 6N, possibly against Ireland, ironically off his left foot, I think.

wasn't that Daly?

I’ll agree and cite it as proof Daly should play 11.

[Banquo]

Usually, you’d suggest it to him as a last resort. That said, didn’t he put through a grabber for Slade to score in the 6N, possibly against Ireland, ironically off his left foot, I think.

wasn't that Daly?

I’ll agree and cite it as proof Daly should play 11.

I do think he's a better 11 than 15 if that helps

[Renniks]

What was it Francis did badly?

I've got to say I totally forgot he was playing at the time, which could mean anything.

same question from me. I just remember he defended solidly and made some good passes. His stats don't say he was terrible either, but that might mean nothing.

Joseph also seemed to have a lot of space - which is in part due to Francis

I think he just did nothing flashy or that memorable

[Timbo]

Does May kick? I've got him down as an unco

Usually, you’d suggest it to him as a last resort. That said, didn’t he put through a grabber for Slade to score in the 6N, possibly against Ireland, ironically off his left foot, I think.

wasn't that Daly?

Daly’s kick through set up his own try.

May kicked from the scrum set move. Slade got the ball from the scrum, threw a long, reasonably flat pass to May who kicked and Slade outpaced Ringrose to score.

[Timbo]

Ideally, I’d like us to try Watson at 15 too. The only problem with moving Daly back to the wing is that he and May both prefer to play on the left. Watson seems to be a bit more flexible playing on the left or the right.

I think you’ve got to play Daly on the left. He’s the least experienced wing of the two and should get preference. He’s also shown in the Lions series that he can do it against top oppo in pressure games. May also has experience on the right.....that try against NZ when he came of the right wing. Lovely. There’s also that Daly is left footed and May right.

May is the same player on either wing I think. Played the whole Saffa tour on the right and was world class.

[Digby]

Think you need to have word with Parisse and Read. Seems to me an 8 should be athletic and mobile, and dextrous.

And yet I'd still pick Picamoles in many sides, so they don't have to that athletic and mobile. He is a little unusual though in his ability to make ground whilst on a stroll, and his offloads are excellent

Perhaps should have added dynamic and ideally when I said athletic and mobile; and Picamoles is unusual and frankly a bit of an underachiever imo given his ability to make ground strolling. But I'm surprised you'd pick Itoje at 8.

8 is a bit far, 12 maybe for a new age crashball

[Puja]

I think you’ve got to play Daly on the left. He’s the least experienced wing of the two and should get preference. He’s also shown in the Lions series that he can do it against top oppo in pressure games. May also has experience on the right.....that try against NZ when he came of the right wing. Lovely. There’s also that Daly is left footed and May right.

Does May kick? I've got him down as an unco

Usually, you’d suggest it to him as a last resort. That said, didn’t he put through a grabber for Slade to score in the 6N, possibly against Ireland, ironically off his left foot, I think.

May can kick - he's played full-back for Leicester on occasions and his kicking was never a problem. It's not his strong suit and he's unlikely to do a chip and chase when there's other options, but he is capable.

Puja

[Epaminondas Pules]

Does May kick? I've got him down as an unco

Usually, you’d suggest it to him as a last resort. That said, didn’t he put through a grabber for Slade to score in the 6N, possibly against Ireland, ironically off his left foot, I think.

wasn't that Daly?

Against Ireland it was May, but it wasn’t a grabber. It was the move of the midfield scrum. Youngs misspass to Slade, Slade to May, May takes off and then boots it left footed which salads, who is inches onside, chases and scores.

[Banquo]

Usually, you’d suggest it to him as a last resort. That said, didn’t he put through a grabber for Slade to score in the 6N, possibly against Ireland, ironically off his left foot, I think.

wasn't that Daly?

Against Ireland it was May, but it wasn’t a grabber. It was the move of the midfield scrum. Youngs misspass to Slade, Slade to May, May takes off and then boots it left footed which salads, who is inches onside, chases and scores.

Thanks for the info. Good old salads

[Epaminondas Pules]

wasn't that Daly?

Against Ireland it was May, but it wasn’t a grabber. It was the move of the midfield scrum. Youngs misspass to Slade, Slade to May, May takes off and then boots it left footed which salads, who is inches onside, chases and scores.

Thanks for the info. Good old salads

Slade’s new nickname

[Beasties]

What was it Francis did badly?

I've got to say I totally forgot he was playing at the time, which could mean anything.

same question from me. I just remember he defended solidly and made some good passes. His stats don't say he was terrible either, but that might mean nothing.

Joseph also seemed to have a lot of space - which is in part due to Francis

I think he just did nothing flashy or that memorable

Joseph having more space than for a long time was primarily due to the fact that Farrell was in the stand rather than Francis doing anything in particular.

[Banquo]

same question from me. I just remember he defended solidly and made some good passes. His stats don't say he was terrible either, but that might mean nothing.

Joseph also seemed to have a lot of space - which is in part due to Francis

I think he just did nothing flashy or that memorable

Joseph having more space than for a long time was primarily due to the fact that Farrell was in the stand rather than Francis doing anything in particular.

[Banquo]

Does May kick? I've got him down as an unco

Usually, you’d suggest it to him as a last resort. That said, didn’t he put through a grabber for Slade to score in the 6N, possibly against Ireland, ironically off his left foot, I think.

May can kick - he's played full-back for Leicester on occasions and his kicking was never a problem. It's not his strong suit and he's unlikely to do a chip and chase when there's other options, but he is capable.

Puja

Hmmm...its pretty agricultural when it happens.