Someone contrasting for our fourth England lock?

[jngf]

Launchberry, Itoje and Kruis are all high quality, athletic locks - It would be great to complement them with a true behemoth in the Shaw, de Jager, Ezebeth, Botha mode - possibly to be an impact sub lock. Atwood and Lawes both have their respective merits but imo neither have managed to fill the literally massive void left by Shaw. England used to have an 'edge' by having at least one enforcer lock - are their any players in the premiership out there who could grow into this role?

[twitchy]

Short story is that there isn't really one currently (the two you mention both have their issues). You can still beef up the pack by adding options such as ewers.

If we find some one that fits the bill in the youngsters we will all know about him.

[Tigersman]

Long shot for me would be Barrow

[Digby]

Mitch Lees is the contrast option. But I'd be more inclined to pick Attwood.

[Stom]

I don't think there's really any place for pure "enforcers" in the modern game. Look around the world, and the best locks are all multi-faceted. A lock can take on the traditional enforcer role of hitting rucks hard, bone crunching tackles and short, sharp carries while still being able to fulfil other roles. Like Itoje or Kruis can.

So I don't see the need. We have three great locks, let's just find the best of the rest for the 4th slot. If that's Lawes, Barrow, Slater, Attwood, or whoever, I trust Eddie's judgement.

[Mellsblue]

I don't think there's really any place for pure "enforcers" in the modern game. Look around the world, and the best locks are all multi-faceted. A lock can take on the traditional enforcer role of hitting rucks hard, bone crunching tackles and short, sharp carries while still being able to fulfil other roles. Like Itoje or Kruis can.

So I don't see the need. We have three great locks, let's just find the best of the rest for the 4th slot. If that's Lawes, Barrow, Slater, Attwood, or whoever, I trust Eddie's judgement.

Pretty much this. All three of Itoje, Kruis and Launch can more than hold their own in the physicality stakes and they've all got some growing left to do.

I'd rather multi-skilled locks with enough ballast than some behemoth who dominates his space, puts in a couple of showreel hits but does little else.

[Puja]

I don't think there's really any place for pure "enforcers" in the modern game. Look around the world, and the best locks are all multi-faceted. A lock can take on the traditional enforcer role of hitting rucks hard, bone crunching tackles and short, sharp carries while still being able to fulfil other roles. Like Itoje or Kruis can.

So I don't see the need. We have three great locks, let's just find the best of the rest for the 4th slot. If that's Lawes, Barrow, Slater, Attwood, or whoever, I trust Eddie's judgement.

Agreed. Itoje is actually phenomenally powerful (and will hopefully get more so with age), but people don't think of him as an enforcer because he's so mobile as well.

Puja

[Stom]

I don't think there's really any place for pure "enforcers" in the modern game. Look around the world, and the best locks are all multi-faceted. A lock can take on the traditional enforcer role of hitting rucks hard, bone crunching tackles and short, sharp carries while still being able to fulfil other roles. Like Itoje or Kruis can.

So I don't see the need. We have three great locks, let's just find the best of the rest for the 4th slot. If that's Lawes, Barrow, Slater, Attwood, or whoever, I trust Eddie's judgement.

Agreed. Itoje is actually phenomenally powerful (and will hopefully get more so with age), but people don't think of him as an enforcer because he's so mobile as well.

Puja

And he's ONLY 6'5"! How can he be an enforcer when he's 6'5"! He needs to be 7' and 20st to have an impact! Bring in Will Carrick-Smith, he's 6'11" and almost 21 stone!

[Puja]

I don't think there's really any place for pure "enforcers" in the modern game. Look around the world, and the best locks are all multi-faceted. A lock can take on the traditional enforcer role of hitting rucks hard, bone crunching tackles and short, sharp carries while still being able to fulfil other roles. Like Itoje or Kruis can.

So I don't see the need. We have three great locks, let's just find the best of the rest for the 4th slot. If that's Lawes, Barrow, Slater, Attwood, or whoever, I trust Eddie's judgement.

Agreed. Itoje is actually phenomenally powerful (and will hopefully get more so with age), but people don't think of him as an enforcer because he's so mobile as well.

Puja

And he's ONLY 6'5"! How can he be an enforcer when he's 6'5"! He needs to be 7' and 20st to have an impact! Bring in Will Carrick-Smith, he's 6'11" and almost 21 stone!

Sorry, but Carrick-Smith will be needed to play 12.

Puja

[Banquo]

Give him a break, its not a back row thread!

[Puja]

Give him a break, its not a back row thread!

Wait a minute - this is a thread about young and talented English locks who are excelling at lock. Doesn't that automatically make it a thread about blindside flankers?

Puja

[Banquo]

Give him a break, its not a back row thread!

Wait a minute - this is a thread about young and talented English locks who are excelling at lock. Doesn't that automatically make it a thread about blindside flankers?

Puja

ah I get your drift.

Draft in behemoth, Itoje to openside. Sorted.

[Mellsblue]

Agreed. Itoje is actually phenomenally powerful (and will hopefully get more so with age), but people don't think of him as an enforcer because he's so mobile as well.

Puja

And he's ONLY 6'5"! How can he be an enforcer when he's 6'5"! He needs to be 7' and 20st to have an impact! Bring in Will Carrick-Smith, he's 6'11" and almost 21 stone!

Sorry, but Carrick-Smith will be needed to play 12.

Puja

He'll be playing at Bedford next season. He's more chance of becoming an 12 than an enforcer.

[Beasties]

It's been pleasing to see how Kruis has come on in the last couple of years. He's defo beefed up in the last 12 months, to the point where he's almost "enforcer" size. I'm loving the pairing with Itoje as neither of them get pushed around. Itoje really is quite an extraordinary player, he wouldn't be any better if he was actually nasty.

Launch doesn't appear to have a nasty bone in his body. Then again Shaw wasn't a nasty player but he did have a presence which Launch hasn't quite got yet. At the moment I can't see Launch forcing his way in, but what a third choice!

[Mellsblue]

At the moment I can't see Launch forcing his way in, but what a third choice!

It's a good place to be. All three could be world class.

[Puja]

At the moment I can't see Launch forcing his way in, but what a third choice!

It's a good place to be. All three could be world class.

It's one of the reasons why I don't want one of them crowbarred into 6. A year ago, Launchbury was inviolate and Kruis and Itoje have had to work hard and improve to get past him. I want Launchbury fighting to get back in and those two fighting to keep their spots. I don't want all three to be found a spot and sit comfortably in an England shirt.

I'd rather have three people driving each other to be world class in two positions than have all three playing and being pretty good.

Puja

[jngf]

Give him a break, its not a back row thread!

Wait a minute - this is a thread about young and talented English locks who are excelling at lock. Doesn't that automatically make it a thread about blindside flankers?

Puja

ah I get your drift.

Draft in behemoth, Itoje to openside. Sorted.

Despite my uber preference for "smaller" specialist opensides, I actually think Itoje is the one bigger forward who could make a reasonable fist of the role.

[Digby]

It's one of the reasons why I don't want one of them crowbarred into 6. A year ago, Launchbury was inviolate and Kruis and Itoje have had to work hard and improve to get past him. I want Launchbury fighting to get back in and those two fighting to keep their spots. I don't want all three to be found a spot and sit comfortably in an England shirt.

Work hard to improve or just wait for Launchbury to be injured, albeit not injured as much as Lawes and Attwood? Soon we can look forward to Kruis and Itoje being injured.

[Banquo]

It's one of the reasons why I don't want one of them crowbarred into 6. A year ago, Launchbury was inviolate and Kruis and Itoje have had to work hard and improve to get past him. I want Launchbury fighting to get back in and those two fighting to keep their spots. I don't want all three to be found a spot and sit comfortably in an England shirt.

Work hard to improve or just wait for Launchbury to be injured, albeit not injured as much as Lawes and Attwood? Soon we can look forward to Kruis and Itoje being injured.

In fairness I think Kruis and Itoje have both improved a lot and may well have unseated Launchbury, injury or nae.

[Oakboy]

In fairness I think Kruis and Itoje have both improved a lot and may well have unseated Launchbury, injury or nae.

Interesting that! I think, at his best, Launchbury has something extra in contact over Kruis and Itoje. In fact, IMO, the only area that both Itoje and Kruis outplay Launchbury significantly is in lineout jumping. Moving Itoje to 6 costs nothing in that area obviously.

Having said that, I have no issues at all with Launchbury being left out IF he is not fully fit and on form. I do think, though, that Kruis or Itoje are currently better than Launchbury because he is not at his best. I'd also add that I'd always argue against any player who proves injury-prone. The next 12 months will be interesting for the three of them.

[Banquo]

In fairness I think Kruis and Itoje have both improved a lot and may well have unseated Launchbury, injury or nae.

Interesting that! I think, at his best, Launchbury has something extra in contact over Kruis and Itoje. In fact, IMO, the only area that both Itoje and Kruis outplay Launchbury significantly is in lineout jumping. Moving Itoje to 6 costs nothing in that area obviously.

Having said that, I have no issues at all with Launchbury being left out IF he is not fully fit and on form. I do think, though, that Kruis or Itoje are currently better than Launchbury because he is not at his best. I'd also add that I'd always argue against any player who proves injury-prone. The next 12 months will be interesting for the three of them.

They are both more aggressive in defence for me as well, and are complementary as a unit-- also no buggering about with scrummaging preferences. Launchbury at his best was excellent, don't get me wrong, and used 'may' advisedly- in the context of their improvement. Not sure how Launchbury has 'proven' injury prone- the workload he was going through was bound to have consequences, which we will probably see in Itoje at some point, unless and until we play our best players less.
IMO Launchbury is going to have to work hard to get a starting berth if their form continues.

[Spiffy]

In fairness I think Kruis and Itoje have both improved a lot and may well have unseated Launchbury, injury or nae.

Interesting that! I think, at his best, Launchbury has something extra in contact over Kruis and Itoje. In fact, IMO, the only area that both Itoje and Kruis outplay Launchbury significantly is in lineout jumping. Moving Itoje to 6 costs nothing in that area obviously.

Having said that, I have no issues at all with Launchbury being left out IF he is not fully fit and on form. I do think, though, that Kruis or Itoje are currently better than Launchbury because he is not at his best. I'd also add that I'd always argue against any player who proves injury-prone. The next 12 months will be interesting for the three of them.

They are both more aggressive in defence for me as well, and are complementary as a unit-- also no buggering about with scrummaging preferences. Launchbury at his best was excellent, don't get me wrong, and used 'may' advisedly- in the context of their improvement. Not sure how Launchbury has 'proven' injury prone- the workload he was going through was bound to have consequences, which we will probably see in Itoje at some point, unless and until we play our best players less.
IMO Launchbury is going to have to work hard to get a starting berth if their form continues.

Agree. But these days you tend to look at the match day 23 and the importance of subs from the bench. All three are very good locks and will get plenty of game time. Itoje is handy backrow cover too.

[Banquo]

Interesting that! I think, at his best, Launchbury has something extra in contact over Kruis and Itoje. In fact, IMO, the only area that both Itoje and Kruis outplay Launchbury significantly is in lineout jumping. Moving Itoje to 6 costs nothing in that area obviously.

Having said that, I have no issues at all with Launchbury being left out IF he is not fully fit and on form. I do think, though, that Kruis or Itoje are currently better than Launchbury because he is not at his best. I'd also add that I'd always argue against any player who proves injury-prone. The next 12 months will be interesting for the three of them.

They are both more aggressive in defence for me as well, and are complementary as a unit-- also no buggering about with scrummaging preferences. Launchbury at his best was excellent, don't get me wrong, and used 'may' advisedly- in the context of their improvement. Not sure how Launchbury has 'proven' injury prone- the workload he was going through was bound to have consequences, which we will probably see in Itoje at some point, unless and until we play our best players less.
IMO Launchbury is going to have to work hard to get a starting berth if their form continues.

Agree. But these days you tend to look at the match day 23 and the importance of subs from the bench. All three are very good locks and will get plenty of game time. Itoje is handy backrow cover too.

well yes, happy days.