Brexit delayed

[Mellsblue]

Supposedly, Macron has now poopooed the CETA (++) option due to the fact the UK is only 25 miles from Calais.

It's clear from that that JRM is winning - Macron using imperial units, I mean.

Ha. Very good. No wonder he looked so relaxed in the chamber.

[Banquo]

I'm probably being naïve here (or possibly less naïve about where things are heading), but I'm not sure the divisions can get much worse than they're currently headed for. Either No Deal or Revoke will almost certainly end with violence on the streets.
I would certainly have any 3rd referendum being required to abide by electoral commission regulations, however; which should curb some of the bullshit; and I think politicians themselves stand a much better chance at countering what bullshit there would be, now they shouldn't be caught unawares. Of course, the bullshitters are presumably more accomplished now as well.

As for what should go on the referendum - I'd favour a preferential system of some sort with the various options included; Remain, "Norway" EEA, "Swiss" EFTA, "Turkish" Customs Union, "Canadian" CETA, No Deal. All existing "off the shelf" options with known, provable costs and benefits, no imaginary "plus"s anywhere - none of this "your vote for Norway+ can only be interpreted as a vote for No Deal bollocks.
But then I also still think that, with a long enough extension, the EU would renegotiate - but only if we withdrew Theresa's personal red lines (rather than Boris's additional red lines); though I suspect that any renegotiation would be in the form of "have this existing deal that we have with another country". I know that this is not a popular opinion.


I've not read the bill in detail; and I'm not a legal expert of any system; but... the bill is creating a new law; surely breaking it would be a criminal offense by definition?

I think you are being over-optimistic tbh, and I think that list of stuff for the referendum is incomprehensible to Joe public- hell the MPs couldn't make any sense of it, and demonstrably didn't understand the options and ramifications. These issues are precisely why parliament exists to represent the populace; however the genie is out of the bottle, partly because parliament have proved so useless.

Let’s be honest, in any election most of the population don’t know what they’re voting for. It just needs to be a comprehensive list of options so nobody can then say we weren’t given instructions of exactly what the public so we’ll having a pissing contest for the next 5 years.

really? You could easily end up with a load of old sh..........

as you were.

This all sound rather French to me- the process being more important than the outcome. Which is a decent point.

[Mellsblue]

I think you are being over-optimistic tbh, and I think that list of stuff for the referendum is incomprehensible to Joe public- hell the MPs couldn't make any sense of it, and demonstrably didn't understand the options and ramifications. These issues are precisely why parliament exists to represent the populace; however the genie is out of the bottle, partly because parliament have proved so useless.

Let’s be honest, in any election most of the population don’t know what they’re voting for. It just needs to be a comprehensive list of options so nobody can then say we weren’t given instructions of exactly what the public so we’ll having a pissing contest for the next 5 years.

really? You could easily end up with a load of old sh..........

as you were.

This all sound rather French to me- the process being more important than the outcome. Which is a decent point.

The process needs to lead to a concrete instruction to Parliament. We can then make the best of whatever the outcome is and concentrate on trivial stuff like eduction, social care etc

[Son of Mathonwy]

So I’ve read the Benn Bill. I think there’s a problem with it. Although it requires the PM to send a letter to the EU requesting an extension, there is no express consequence if that is not done. It seems to me (not a UK public law expert) that the only way to enforce it would be for someone to sue Boris for failure to discharge a statutory duty, and seek a mandatory injunction requiring him to do so, and then when he doesn’t, going back to court for an order holding him in contempt and if he doesn’t cure his contempt getting an order for his arrest and imprisonment for contempt of court.

They should have made failure to comply a criminal offence right from the start.

Hammond said the bill was designed to give time for litigation, should BJ take the despicable but entirely in character route of ignoring the law.

I suppose, also, there is the final option of the rebels forming a government following a vote of confidence.

Who would lead this rebel govt. Swinson and Hammond have said it can’t be Corbyn, Corbyn won’t allow it to be some other Lab MP, for obvious reasons, and a majority Lab govt surely can’t be led by a Tory.

Obviously it couldn't be the leader of any of the parties. But the soon to retire Vince Cable should be harmless enough to Corbyn and probably acceptable to the exiled formed Tories. Or some independent MP. Whether Corbyn could cope with Benn (et al) I'm not 100% sure. But let's face it, this would only need to be in place for a few days to implement the extension (should Corbyn, or pretty much anyone really, want to pull the plug after that).

Of course, I would prefer a more stable coalition, since with first past the post and the billionaire press and people voting for all kinds of reasons other than Brexit, I've no confidence that a BJ/Farage government wouldn't result from a GE. Calling one now (or the next few months) seems like a throw of the dice to me (actually, russian roulette with three bullets is closer), whereas (admittedly with heroic levels of cooperation) I can believe that a coalition could negotiate a soft Brexit deal and bring it to the country in a second referendum.

[Stom]

Hammond said the bill was designed to give time for litigation, should BJ take the despicable but entirely in character route of ignoring the law.

I suppose, also, there is the final option of the rebels forming a government following a vote of confidence.

Who would lead this rebel govt. Swinson and Hammond have said it can’t be Corbyn, Corbyn won’t allow it to be some other Lab MP, for obvious reasons, and a majority Lab govt surely can’t be led by a Tory.

Obviously it couldn't be the leader of any of the parties. But the soon to retire Vince Cable should be harmless enough to Corbyn and probably acceptable to the exiled formed Tories. Or some independent MP. Whether Corbyn could cope with Benn (et al) I'm not 100% sure. But let's face it, this would only need to be in place for a few days to implement the extension (should Corbyn, or pretty much anyone really, want to pull the plug after that).

Of course, I would prefer a more stable coalition, since with first past the post and the billionaire press and people voting for all kinds of reasons other than Brexit, I've no confidence that a BJ/Farage government wouldn't result from a GE. Calling one now (or the next few months) seems like a throw of the dice to me (actually, russian roulette with three bullets is closer), whereas (admittedly with heroic levels of cooperation) I can believe that a coalition could negotiate a soft Brexit deal and bring it to the country in a second referendum.

If Vince does go, then it's plausible the Tories will take that seat (my home constituency).

I will try to get my vote this time (I have been denied by "clerical errors" the last GE and the Ref, they didn't send me the ballot papers in time).

[Banquo]

Let’s be honest, in any election most of the population don’t know what they’re voting for. It just needs to be a comprehensive list of options so nobody can then say we weren’t given instructions of exactly what the public so we’ll having a pissing contest for the next 5 years.

really? You could easily end up with a load of old sh..........

as you were.

This all sound rather French to me- the process being more important than the outcome. Which is a decent point.

The process needs to lead to a concrete instruction to Parliament. We can then make the best of whatever the outcome is and concentrate on trivial stuff like eduction, social care etc

Highly sceptical that you can create an agreed instruction (and who would devise them and who would agree them) that would be voted for that parliament could or would be able to implement frankly. Unicorns anyone.

[Banquo]

Hammond said the bill was designed to give time for litigation, should BJ take the despicable but entirely in character route of ignoring the law.

I suppose, also, there is the final option of the rebels forming a government following a vote of confidence.

Who would lead this rebel govt. Swinson and Hammond have said it can’t be Corbyn, Corbyn won’t allow it to be some other Lab MP, for obvious reasons, and a majority Lab govt surely can’t be led by a Tory.

Obviously it couldn't be the leader of any of the parties. But the soon to retire Vince Cable should be harmless enough to Corbyn and probably acceptable to the exiled formed Tories. Or some independent MP. Whether Corbyn could cope with Benn (et al) I'm not 100% sure. But let's face it, this would only need to be in place for a few days to implement the extension (should Corbyn, or pretty much anyone really, want to pull the plug after that).

Of course, I would prefer a more stable coalition, since with first past the post and the billionaire press and people voting for all kinds of reasons other than Brexit, I've no confidence that a BJ/Farage government wouldn't result from a GE. Calling one now (or the next few months) seems like a throw of the dice to me (actually, russian roulette with three bullets is closer), whereas (admittedly with heroic levels of cooperation) I can believe that a coalition could negotiate a soft Brexit deal and bring it to the country in a second referendum.

what do you mean by that?

[Mellsblue]

Hammond said the bill was designed to give time for litigation, should BJ take the despicable but entirely in character route of ignoring the law.

I suppose, also, there is the final option of the rebels forming a government following a vote of confidence.

Who would lead this rebel govt. Swinson and Hammond have said it can’t be Corbyn, Corbyn won’t allow it to be some other Lab MP, for obvious reasons, and a majority Lab govt surely can’t be led by a Tory.

Obviously it couldn't be the leader of any of the parties. But the soon to retire Vince Cable should be harmless enough to Corbyn and probably acceptable to the exiled formed Tories. Or some independent MP. Whether Corbyn could cope with Benn (et al) I'm not 100% sure. But let's face it, this would only need to be in place for a few days to implement the extension (should Corbyn, or pretty much anyone really, want to pull the plug after that).

Of course, I would prefer a more stable coalition, since with first past the post and the billionaire press and people voting for all kinds of reasons other than Brexit, I've no confidence that a BJ/Farage government wouldn't result from a GE. Calling one now (or the next few months) seems like a throw of the dice to me (actually, russian roulette with three bullets is closer), whereas (admittedly with heroic levels of cooperation) I can believe that a coalition could negotiate a soft Brexit deal and bring it to the country in a second referendum.

Fairly certain Cable has ruled himself out, like Clarke. It’s a shame as they both have a CV that might unite the House - as far as that is possible. Boles may also be an option. He did resign from the Cons rather than be pushed/stabbed in the front so may not carry such a strong Tory stigma. His Common Market 2.0 is also probably the closest to the official Leave campaign’s platform and garnered a lot of support during the indicative votes. Though, I’m happy to admit I may be biased as I think that the best ‘soft’ Brexit option.

[Mellsblue]

really? You could easily end up with a load of old sh..........

as you were.

This all sound rather French to me- the process being more important than the outcome. Which is a decent point.

The process needs to lead to a concrete instruction to Parliament. We can then make the best of whatever the outcome is and concentrate on trivial stuff like eduction, social care etc

Highly sceptical that you can create an agreed instruction (and who would devise them and who would agree them) that would be voted for that parliament could or would be able to implement frankly. Unicorns anyone.

I don’t see the problem, beyond the electorate not being up to the task but therein lies the obvious faultline in democracy. You put a list of options to the electorate, they then vote using a preference system and the first over 50% is the instruction to parliament. The list would come from Parliament - they managed to get down to a shortlist during the indicative vote process so you’d hope they could achieve this without wetting the bed - and would be specific models, eg. SM, CU, that aren’t open to interpretation.

[Banquo]

The process needs to lead to a concrete instruction to Parliament. We can then make the best of whatever the outcome is and concentrate on trivial stuff like eduction, social care etc

Highly sceptical that you can create an agreed instruction (and who would devise them and who would agree them) that would be voted for that parliament could or would be able to implement frankly. Unicorns anyone.

I don’t see the problem, beyond the electorate not being up to the task but therein lies the obvious faultline in democracy. You put a list of options to the electorate, they then vote using a preference system and the first over 50% is the instruction to parliament. The list would come from Parliament - they managed to get down to a shortlist during the indicative vote process so you’d hope they could achieve this without wetting the bed - and would be specific models, eg. SM, CU, that aren’t open to interpretation.

Lol....plus Joe Public has no idea what you mean re single market, customs union. Its a massive education exercise needed- the one that Project Fear sort of tried, but lost to simple soundbites, essentially.

[Stom]

The process needs to lead to a concrete instruction to Parliament. We can then make the best of whatever the outcome is and concentrate on trivial stuff like eduction, social care etc

Highly sceptical that you can create an agreed instruction (and who would devise them and who would agree them) that would be voted for that parliament could or would be able to implement frankly. Unicorns anyone.

I don’t see the problem, beyond the electorate not being up to the task but therein lies the obvious faultline in democracy. You put a list of options to the electorate, they then vote using a preference system and the first over 50% is the instruction to parliament. The list would come from Parliament - they managed to get down to a shortlist during the indicative vote process so you’d hope they could achieve this without wetting the bed - and would be specific models, eg. SM, CU, that aren’t open to interpretation.

You can do that, and it would be my preference.

But you'd have to ensure that the facts were reported, which we cannot have because we did not make law the Leveson inquiry. So our press are bastards in general, with only one naturally unbiased paper who just happen to be so fucking up their own arse anything they say is immediately dismissed.

[Mellsblue]

Highly sceptical that you can create an agreed instruction (and who would devise them and who would agree them) that would be voted for that parliament could or would be able to implement frankly. Unicorns anyone.

I don’t see the problem, beyond the electorate not being up to the task but therein lies the obvious faultline in democracy. You put a list of options to the electorate, they then vote using a preference system and the first over 50% is the instruction to parliament. The list would come from Parliament - they managed to get down to a shortlist during the indicative vote process so you’d hope they could achieve this without wetting the bed - and would be specific models, eg. SM, CU, that aren’t open to interpretation.

Lol....plus Joe Public has no idea what you mean re single market, customs union. Its a massive education exercise needed- the one that Project Fear sort of tried, but lost to simple soundbites, essentially.

The final shortlist was down to four, three of which could go on the ballot paper - CU, Common Market 2.0 and second ref. Add on no deal and you’re there.

I need and edit to respond to your edit. As I say, a mostly naive electorate is inherent in a democracy. It ain’t perfect but what process would be?

[Mellsblue]

Highly sceptical that you can create an agreed instruction (and who would devise them and who would agree them) that would be voted for that parliament could or would be able to implement frankly. Unicorns anyone.

I don’t see the problem, beyond the electorate not being up to the task but therein lies the obvious faultline in democracy. You put a list of options to the electorate, they then vote using a preference system and the first over 50% is the instruction to parliament. The list would come from Parliament - they managed to get down to a shortlist during the indicative vote process so you’d hope they could achieve this without wetting the bed - and would be specific models, eg. SM, CU, that aren’t open to interpretation.

You can do that, and it would be my preference.

But you'd have to ensure that the facts were reported, which we cannot have because we did not make law the Leveson inquiry. So our press are bastards in general, with only one naturally unbiased paper who just happen to be so fucking up their own arse anything they say is immediately dismissed.

Interested to know which one you think is unbiased.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Who would lead this rebel govt. Swinson and Hammond have said it can’t be Corbyn, Corbyn won’t allow it to be some other Lab MP, for obvious reasons, and a majority Lab govt surely can’t be led by a Tory.

Obviously it couldn't be the leader of any of the parties. But the soon to retire Vince Cable should be harmless enough to Corbyn and probably acceptable to the exiled formed Tories. Or some independent MP. Whether Corbyn could cope with Benn (et al) I'm not 100% sure. But let's face it, this would only need to be in place for a few days to implement the extension (should Corbyn, or pretty much anyone really, want to pull the plug after that).

Of course, I would prefer a more stable coalition, since with first past the post and the billionaire press and people voting for all kinds of reasons other than Brexit, I've no confidence that a BJ/Farage government wouldn't result from a GE. Calling one now (or the next few months) seems like a throw of the dice to me (actually, russian roulette with three bullets is closer), whereas (admittedly with heroic levels of cooperation) I can believe that a coalition could negotiate a soft Brexit deal and bring it to the country in a second referendum.

what do you mean by that?

I mean something which closely resembles being in the EU in effect, while not being in name So, in the CU, in the SM, in any body we can still be a part of. It's also the closest thing to an average of the 52:48 views expressed in the referendum, ie just over the line out of the EU.

[Stom]

I don’t see the problem, beyond the electorate not being up to the task but therein lies the obvious faultline in democracy. You put a list of options to the electorate, they then vote using a preference system and the first over 50% is the instruction to parliament. The list would come from Parliament - they managed to get down to a shortlist during the indicative vote process so you’d hope they could achieve this without wetting the bed - and would be specific models, eg. SM, CU, that aren’t open to interpretation.

You can do that, and it would be my preference.

But you'd have to ensure that the facts were reported, which we cannot have because we did not make law the Leveson inquiry. So our press are bastards in general, with only one naturally unbiased paper who just happen to be so fucking up their own arse anything they say is immediately dismissed.

Interested to know which one you think is unbiased.

By definition the Granuaid.

[Mellsblue]

Obviously it couldn't be the leader of any of the parties. But the soon to retire Vince Cable should be harmless enough to Corbyn and probably acceptable to the exiled formed Tories. Or some independent MP. Whether Corbyn could cope with Benn (et al) I'm not 100% sure. But let's face it, this would only need to be in place for a few days to implement the extension (should Corbyn, or pretty much anyone really, want to pull the plug after that).

Of course, I would prefer a more stable coalition, since with first past the post and the billionaire press and people voting for all kinds of reasons other than Brexit, I've no confidence that a BJ/Farage government wouldn't result from a GE. Calling one now (or the next few months) seems like a throw of the dice to me (actually, russian roulette with three bullets is closer), whereas (admittedly with heroic levels of cooperation) I can believe that a coalition could negotiate a soft Brexit deal and bring it to the country in a second referendum.

what do you mean by that?

I mean something which closely resembles being in the EU in effect, while not being in name So, in the CU, in the SM, in any body we can still be a part of. It's also the closest thing to an average of the 52:48 views expressed in the referendum, ie just over the line out of the EU.

You’ve highlighted the flaw in your plan. People may be naive but they aren’t that thick ....mostly.

[Mellsblue]

You can do that, and it would be my preference.

But you'd have to ensure that the facts were reported, which we cannot have because we did not make law the Leveson inquiry. So our press are bastards in general, with only one naturally unbiased paper who just happen to be so fucking up their own arse anything they say is immediately dismissed.

Interested to know which one you think is unbiased.

By definition the Granuaid.

As Banquo would say ...... lol.

[Stom]

Interested to know which one you think is unbiased.

By definition the Granuaid.

As Banquo would say ...... lol.

Depends on your opinion of reality.

But when you cut out the crap, they do report quite well generally.

At least better than the other papers I see.

Not as good as Al-Jazeera was when it first started English language (gone down the pan since) but still good.

[Banquo]

I don’t see the problem, beyond the electorate not being up to the task but therein lies the obvious faultline in democracy. You put a list of options to the electorate, they then vote using a preference system and the first over 50% is the instruction to parliament. The list would come from Parliament - they managed to get down to a shortlist during the indicative vote process so you’d hope they could achieve this without wetting the bed - and would be specific models, eg. SM, CU, that aren’t open to interpretation.

Lol....plus Joe Public has no idea what you mean re single market, customs union. Its a massive education exercise needed- the one that Project Fear sort of tried, but lost to simple soundbites, essentially.

The final shortlist was down to four, three of which could go on the ballot paper - CU, Common Market 2.0 and second ref. Add on no deal and you’re there.

I need and edit to respond to your edit. As I say, a mostly naive electorate is inherent in a democracy. It ain’t perfect but what process would be?

so you'd put a second referendum on a referendum question? Que....

[Banquo]

You can do that, and it would be my preference.

But you'd have to ensure that the facts were reported, which we cannot have because we did not make law the Leveson inquiry. So our press are bastards in general, with only one naturally unbiased paper who just happen to be so fucking up their own arse anything they say is immediately dismissed.

Interested to know which one you think is unbiased.

By definition the Granuaid.

whaaat????

[Banquo]

Obviously it couldn't be the leader of any of the parties. But the soon to retire Vince Cable should be harmless enough to Corbyn and probably acceptable to the exiled formed Tories. Or some independent MP. Whether Corbyn could cope with Benn (et al) I'm not 100% sure. But let's face it, this would only need to be in place for a few days to implement the extension (should Corbyn, or pretty much anyone really, want to pull the plug after that).

Of course, I would prefer a more stable coalition, since with first past the post and the billionaire press and people voting for all kinds of reasons other than Brexit, I've no confidence that a BJ/Farage government wouldn't result from a GE. Calling one now (or the next few months) seems like a throw of the dice to me (actually, russian roulette with three bullets is closer), whereas (admittedly with heroic levels of cooperation) I can believe that a coalition could negotiate a soft Brexit deal and bring it to the country in a second referendum.

what do you mean by that?

I mean something which closely resembles being in the EU in effect, while not being in name So, in the CU, in the SM, in any body we can still be a part of. It's also the closest thing to an average of the 52:48 views expressed in the referendum, ie just over the line out of the EU.

But that still means freedom of movement, EU regs etc etc. If you are proposing that, then you need to be honest with people and say its pointless leaving to renegotiate a lesser version of what you have already but without any influence and all the downsides.
Frankly, I think that is what post the WA the deal would have ended up looking like, with watery red lines.

[Mellsblue]

Lol....plus Joe Public has no idea what you mean re single market, customs union. Its a massive education exercise needed- the one that Project Fear sort of tried, but lost to simple soundbites, essentially.

The final shortlist was down to four, three of which could go on the ballot paper - CU, Common Market 2.0 and second ref. Add on no deal and you’re there.

I need and edit to respond to your edit. As I say, a mostly naive electorate is inherent in a democracy. It ain’t perfect but what process would be?

so you'd put a second referendum on a referendum question? Que....

Ha. Sorry. Typing quickly whilst pretending to ‘work’. Second ref option = Remain.

[Mellsblue]

By definition the Granuaid.

As Banquo would say ...... lol.

Depends on your opinion of reality.

But when you cut out the crap, they do report quite well generally.

At least better than the other papers I see.

Not as good as Al-Jazeera was when it first started English language (gone down the pan since) but still good.

So in your opinion of reality (whatever that means), based on your own bias, they are unbiased. Got it.
In my option of reality they are incredibly biased in favour of Remain. Even my remainiac wife thinks the same.

[Banquo]

By definition the Granuaid.

As Banquo would say ...... lol.

Depends on your opinion of reality.

But when you cut out the crap, they do report quite well generally.

At least better than the other papers I see.

Not as good as Al-Jazeera was when it first started English language (gone down the pan since) but still good.

The Guardian is extremely editorial in its reporting, in common with most mainstream outlets.

[Stom]

Interested to know which one you think is unbiased.

By definition the Granuaid.

whaaat????

It's ownership is designed to keep it impartial. And it often succeeds much more than the other mainstream UK papers.

Though it is also full of a metric fucktonne of shit.