Tonga

[Digby]

Just when you need a Burgess...…...

One of life's great remaining mysteries is watching White 23 meander around the pitch in this passage of play and wonder just what is he trying to do



Not entirely his fault, he should never have been exposed to the nuances of centre play (especially without that crucial kicking game)

Wow... he doesn't have a clue what he's doing...

it does make me laugh though, indeed I don't think I've ever watched it and not chortled

[Puja]

I think the main selling point is anyone playing 7 is going to be much more familiar with the running lines in attack and defence. Though you do want some carrying heft at 8 and LCD is and oddly strong little blighter

If we're being forced to play a 3rd choice 8 out of the current 31, the only picking up I'd expect is if the scrum is wheeling and they need to pick it up, take it out the scrum, and take the hit!

Otherwise, I'd take the limiting on our game and just have the 9 play most balls from the scrum…

If we're needing to do this against France (or later) I'd expect us to sack someone off and call up another 8!

It's not so much about the picking and carrying as it is about the control at 8. As we've explained to jngf many times, the position you pack down at the scrum does not affect what you provide in the loose (cf. Exeter playing Armand and Ewers at flank with lighter players at 8) and, if we are bodging, then we will likely avoid 8-picks where possible.

What I'm concerned about is the ball actually staying in the scrum, rather than shooting out the back for anyone to gather.

Puja

I take the point you're making, but to label it a specialist role and then declare one none specialist is preferable to another none specialist I find a little odd. Also the number of times running lines will matter vs control at the base skews massively in favour of the running lines.

Fair point on the running lines (although you could still shove them on the blindside). I'd say one non-specialist is preferable to another on the basis of them having the closest transferrable skills. It's like if we needed to get someone to cover tighthead, first we'd ask a loosehead, then a hooker, as they have experience in the arena.

Mind, it'd be a clusterf*ck whoever you put there. Except, of course, for our ultimate utility player:



Puja

[Puja]

Actually, thinking of wingers in the scrum, didn't we use Cokanasiga at 8 for a couple of scrums against Italy?

Puja

[Digby]

Running lines between 7 and 8 are very similar which is why I went for the 7 as perhaps finding it easier to cover the 8. Though a lot of 6s do play at 8 too based on size one presumes

And I'm not sure a 7 has more transferrable skills at the base than the hooker, and I take the point above you can tell the 9 not to be heading off to do other things even if that limits one a little

[Raggs]

One of life's great remaining mysteries is watching White 23 meander around the pitch in this passage of play and wonder just what is he trying to do



Not entirely his fault, he should never have been exposed to the nuances of centre play (especially without that crucial kicking game)

Wow... he doesn't have a clue what he's doing...

it does make me laugh though, indeed I don't think I've ever watched it and not chortled

What was he doing when it was turned over? He's well offside, runs past the ruck as it's turned over, then keeps running back seemingly. Balls turned and he's going where? Still backwards seemingly.

[Digby]

Wow... he doesn't have a clue what he's doing...

it does make me laugh though, indeed I don't think I've ever watched it and not chortled

What was he doing when it was turned over? He's well offside, runs past the ruck as it's turned over, then keeps running back seemingly. Balls turned and he's going where? Still backwards seemingly.

As I said, it's a mystery. We can conclude whatever he's trying to do he's doing it badly, but what he's trying to do I really don't know, I don't think I've ever seen some of those lines run before or since. And I've sat through a lot of rugby videos. Frankly I wouldn't expect to see some of those lines being run in u13s rugby.

All that said I still think it a shame he didn't stay to try and become a blindside, he's clearly got talent.

[Which Tyler]

All that said I still think it a shame he didn't stay to try and become a blindside, he's clearly got talent.

And so say 85% of Bath fans

[Digby]

All that said I still think it a shame he didn't stay to try and become a blindside, he's clearly got talent.

And so say 85% of Bath fans

Ordinarily I think the correct order of things when teams like Bath or Quins lose is to laugh at them. But I do actually feel sorry for Bath they partly binned their only recent chance for silverware on trying to get Burgess up to speed. And it's odd its still not clear who made the decision on him being brought (and indeed bought) into Bath's side

[jngf]

We all know what the answer is:



Puja

Can only hope

I believe Ludlum has capacity to play 8 but Saints fans may know more - wouldn’t say hard yards carrying in tight traffic is particularly his style though. Would prefer to see a converted Itoje given a go if required.

jngf my friend, Itoje is never going to play 8! And it would a travesty if he did

I only asked about Ludlam as just looking at him, I wouldn't be surprised if he had played 8 before... if Wilson was crocked and we're resting Billy against USA, I wondered if Ludlam had the ability to play there... certainly not ideal but I was trying to think of a 3rd option and I guess I'd put him there over the other options. Hopefully it won't come to that!

My reasons for thinking Itoje might develop into a good test 8 option are:

1.His physique appears ideal for the role (6’5” and just south of 19 stone) - imo he has more of a conventional 6/8 body shape than Billy who shares his bothers loosehead prop physique.

2.His ball carrying is starting to become something special (admitedly from being near none existent when he began his test career) - whilst I’m not certain how quick he is over the first 20-30 yards the try he scored recently (in which he extravagantly celebrated standing up) did come from an explosive surge.

3.Having Itoje at 8 with two from Lawes, Kruis and Launchbury would give us 3 quality lineout targets.

Obviously the flip side is the limited degree of past experience Itoje has had playing 8 (have Sarries ever used him there? ) so I take the point about the uncertainty as to whether or not he’d be good at controlling the ball at the back of the scrum and the pick up and drive. Past players with great no.8 physiques were challenged to make the transition to 8 at test level (Rodber, Worsley and Haskell spring to mind ) so I admit it may not work (just like trying Itoje at 6 hasn’t imo) - then again I sometimes think that Itoje has too much natural athleticism to remain as a lock.

[Banquo]

Can only hope

I believe Ludlum has capacity to play 8 but Saints fans may know more - wouldn’t say hard yards carrying in tight traffic is particularly his style though. Would prefer to see a converted Itoje given a go if required.

jngf my friend, Itoje is never going to play 8! And it would a travesty if he did

I only asked about Ludlam as just looking at him, I wouldn't be surprised if he had played 8 before... if Wilson was crocked and we're resting Billy against USA, I wondered if Ludlam had the ability to play there... certainly not ideal but I was trying to think of a 3rd option and I guess I'd put him there over the other options. Hopefully it won't come to that!

that Itoje has too much natural athleticism to remain as a lock.

Good lord, have you not watched any rugby since Bill Beaumont played ?

[Danno]

Obviously the flip side is the LITERALLY ZERO experience Itoje has had playing 8 (have Sarries ever used him there? ) so I take the point about the uncertainty as to whether or not he’d be good at controlling the ball at the back of the scrum and the pick up and drive. Past players with great no.8 physiques were challenged to make the transition to 8 at test level (Rodber, Worsley and Haskell spring to mind ) so I admit it may not work (just like trying Itoje at 6 hasn’t imo) - then again I sometimes think that Itoje has too much natural athleticism to remain as a lock.

[Scrumhead]

Puja - can we invoke an emergency ban for the next time jngf mentions Itoje at 8 please?

It’s making me irrationally angry and I fear for people on my vicinity when I read his posts on this subject.

[Puja]

While I am aware that I started this particular essay into Itoje's 8 qualities with a joke, I think a temporary moratorium on the subject might not be a terrible idea

Jngf - we do appreciate your general contributions to the board, but if we say that you've now put your opinion on Itoje's fitness to play 8 and we can let the topic rest until after the RWC or until he gets picked there, whichever comes first? Just so we don't have the same argument again for a little bit.

Puja

[Digby]

if we're not allowed to repeat ourselves I need a new posting strategy. And Mells is right in the shit too given his/her MO is just to quote him/herself.

[morepork]

Have you guys ever considered Itoje at No.8?

[Renniks]

Has anyone considered if Watson can play 15?

I know he had a cameo there recently, but he might actually be a back-up option there! Y'know, if Daly were to stop being so awesome at it

[Puja]

Welcome to my Ted Talk about how Leicester's current travails are due to them ignoring their academy for the better part of a decade...

Puja

[richy678]

If we were really in the shit I would have a look at Launchberry to have a go.

[richy678]

Or just send the fuck for Morgan.

[p/d]

One of life's great remaining mysteries is watching White 23 meander around the pitch in this passage of play and wonder just what is he trying to do



Not entirely his fault, he should never have been exposed to the nuances of centre play (especially without that crucial kicking game)

Wow... he doesn't have a clue what he's doing...

it does make me laugh though, indeed I don't think I've ever watched it and not chortled

Clip also reminded me how awful Joseph’s pass was

[Digby]

Welcome to my Ted Talk about how Leicester's current travails are due to them ignoring their academy for the better part of a decade...

Puja

A decade? Singular?

[Digby]

Clip also reminded me how awful Joseph’s pass was

It was rank. Too much time in training with Faz, Barritt and Burgess is no excuse

[twitchy]

Tameifuna looks nuts. 24 stone apparently.

[Timbo]

Nowell was sprinting and Mako doing live scrummaging in training today apparently.

Everyone else available for Sunday.

[Renniks]

Nowell was sprinting and Mako doing live scrummaging in training today apparently.

Everyone else available for Sunday.

Everyone?! Awesome!