England vs Tonga (Teams)

[Mikey Brown]

England: Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell (c), May; Ford, Youngs; Marler, George, Sinckler, Lawes, Itoje, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Cole, Kruis, Ludlam, Heinz, Slade, Joseph

Tonga: Halaifonua; Pakalani, Piutau (c), Vuna, Lolohea; Morath, Takulua; Fisiihoi, Sakalia, Tameifuna, Lousi, Fifita, Kalamafoni, Kapeli, Vaipulu

Replacements: Maile, Talakai, Fia, Faleafa, Manu, Fukofuka, Faiva, Tu'itavake

[Mikey Brown]

Slade and Joseph together on the bench does suggest Slade is maybe generic playmaker/10/12/15 (in a sense) cover and Joseph just 13? Seems an odd combo if not.

Lawes ahead of Kruis is interesting.

Hoping Wilson is just a precaution over injury. But WHY are so many of them injured anyway?

[Oakboy]

I still have concern that Jones did not find an opportunity to start Singleton. Various opinions have been expressed about our most important player, in terms of injury avoidance (with Billy V, Tuilagi, Youngs and Ford getting mentions). For all that, there's quite a case for it being George. LCD is a multiple lineout-accident waiting to happen, whatever his contribution in the scrum or open play.

[Oakboy]

Slade and Joseph together on the bench does suggest Slade is maybe generic playmaker/10/12/15 (in a sense) cover and Joseph just 13? Seems an odd combo if not.

Lawes ahead of Kruis is interesting.

Hoping Wilson is just a precaution over injury. But WHY are so many of them injured anyway?

Do you not see Joseph as wing cover?

[Mikey Brown]

Slade and Joseph together on the bench does suggest Slade is maybe generic playmaker/10/12/15 (in a sense) cover and Joseph just 13? Seems an odd combo if not.

Lawes ahead of Kruis is interesting.

Hoping Wilson is just a precaution over injury. But WHY are so many of them injured anyway?

Do you not see Joseph as wing cover?

I mean it seems dumb when we've got a world class wing fannying around at 15 but I guess that's redundant, as you'd have to either put Slade at 15 or Joseph on the wing either way. I've never actually seen him play there that I remember. I'm sure he wouldn't embarrass himself but it doesn't excite me.

Having Watson cover 15 does seem marginally less risky than Slade, I guess.

[Oakboy]

Slade and Joseph together on the bench does suggest Slade is maybe generic playmaker/10/12/15 (in a sense) cover and Joseph just 13? Seems an odd combo if not.

Lawes ahead of Kruis is interesting.

Hoping Wilson is just a precaution over injury. But WHY are so many of them injured anyway?

Do you not see Joseph as wing cover?

I mean it seems dumb when we've got a world class wing fannying around at 15 but I guess that's redundant, as you'd have to either put Slade at 15 or Joseph on the wing either way. I've never actually seen him play there that I remember. I'm sure he wouldn't embarrass himself but it doesn't excite me.

Having Watson cover 15 does seem marginally less risky than Slade, I guess.

Joseph has played parts of games on the wing before, I'm pretty sure. I asked because I wonder if he has lost a yard of pace based on recent performances. He'd be better at OC anyway, obviously.

[jngf]

I’d have maybe played Ludlum ahead of Curry at 6. Their both first and foremost opensides but I think the former is a bit more versatile and his high energy based game (rather resemblant of Moody in this respect) doesn’t need to be suppressed/tweaked so much as Curry’s to make the switch imo.

[Mellsblue]

I’m fairly certain Joseph was a wing during age grade rugby.

[Banquo]

I’d have maybe played Ludlum ahead of Curry at 6. Their both first and foremost opensides but I think the former is a bit more versatile and his high energy based game (rather resemblant of Moody in this respect) doesn’t need to be suppressed/tweaked so much as Curry’s to make the switch imo.

Curry is a better player with more international experience, and I don't see him as less energetic or less versatile than Ludlam. The better question to ask is why is Eddie buggering about with numbers, as what they will actually be doing won't change even if you swapped the numbers, save indicating that Curry will be packing down on the blindside....and even then, what drives that choice; he may have spotted we've been exposed for gas down the blindside (see welsh warmup try), and may see that Underhill can apply more 'physical' pressure on the 10 from the set piece. Reality is that Eddie has picked two different flankers, who when combined with Billy seem to give us balance in the back row.

[Renniks]

Yeah, I really don't care which numbers they wear, and I really don't think either one will be shown up too much playing blind or open side when packing down in the scrum

What matters is how they play

I'd hope that Curry continues to play his link game well, and Underhill continues to put in dominating tackles
I'd also hope that they both continue to look for turnovers throughout the game, and combine well to make them easier for each other
And I hope that they put in huge shifts so Billy can focus on what he does best!

[jngf]

I’d have maybe played Ludlum ahead of Curry at 6. Their both first and foremost opensides but I think the former is a bit more versatile and his high energy based game (rather resemblant of Moody in this respect) doesn’t need to be suppressed/tweaked so much as Curry’s to make the switch imo.

Curry is a better player with more international experience, and I don't see him as less energetic or less versatile than Ludlam.

At 7 perhaps but I certainly don’t agree that he’s the better 6 of the two.

[Banquo]

I’d have maybe played Ludlum ahead of Curry at 6. Their both first and foremost opensides but I think the former is a bit more versatile and his high energy based game (rather resemblant of Moody in this respect) doesn’t need to be suppressed/tweaked so much as Curry’s to make the switch imo.

Curry is a better player with more international experience, and I don't see him as less energetic or less versatile than Ludlam.

At 7 perhaps but I don’t certainly don’t agree that he’s the better 6 of the two.

Why don't you read what I actually wrote and try and rid yourself of the number fixation. Or does the selective edit indicate the point at which you'd got what you wanted to reply to?

[morepork]

That's close to your first choice team isn't it?

[Banquo]

That's close to your first choice team isn't it?

Yep. Mako for Marler (to bench), possibly Kruis for Lawes, Possibly Wilson for Underhill .....and that looks like the first choice backline. If Nowell were fit he might nab Watson's spot, though wouldn't be my choice.

As this is Eddie, who knows really.

[jngf]

Curry is a better player with more international experience, and I don't see him as less energetic or less versatile than Ludlam.

At 7 perhaps but I don’t certainly don’t agree that he’s the better 6 of the two.

Why don't you read what I actually wrote and try and rid yourself of the number fixation. Or does the selective edit indicate the point at which you'd got what you wanted to reply to?

Sorry for cutting your post - no offence meant and I did actually read to the end of it. I don’t see it as being an issue of shirt numbers rather an issue of playing a specialist player in another position which imo negates his strengths somewhat.

[Oakboy]

That's close to your first choice team isn't it?

Yep. Mako for Marler (to bench), possibly Kruis for Lawes, Possibly Wilson for Underhill .....and that looks like the first choice backline. If Nowell were fit he might nab Watson's spot, though wouldn't be my choice.

As this is Eddie, who knows really.

In a straight choice for a wing slot, Nowell may well be Jones's choice.

Much as I'm a fan of Nowell, he's the 4th or 5th best back three player in the squad (depending on one's opinion of Coka). However, I think that Nowell and Coka are more effective wingers than Watson who I rate as the best FB. Daly is the best winger, IMO, with May the 2nd best.

[Banquo]

At 7 perhaps but I don’t certainly don’t agree that he’s the better 6 of the two.

Why don't you read what I actually wrote and try and rid yourself of the number fixation. Or does the selective edit indicate the point at which you'd got what you wanted to reply to?

Sorry for cutting your post - no offence meant and I did actually read to the end of it. I don’t see it as being an issue of shirt numbers rather an issue of playing a specialist player in another position which imo negates his strengths somewhat.

In what way will his strengths be negated? Outside the scrum (which is usually a tiny proportion of the phases of play), what do you think he will be doing? Think you need to look at the mix of skills between Curry and Underhill, and (i) see that between them they provide balance; Curry will still be able to carry, link and support in multiphase play in attack, and jackal in defence (say)....and so on.

[Banquo]

That's close to your first choice team isn't it?

Yep. Mako for Marler (to bench), possibly Kruis for Lawes, Possibly Wilson for Underhill .....and that looks like the first choice backline. If Nowell were fit he might nab Watson's spot, though wouldn't be my choice.

As this is Eddie, who knows really.

In a straight choice for a wing slot, Nowell may well be Jones's choice.

Much as I'm a fan of Nowell, he's the 4th or 5th best back three player in the squad (depending on one's opinion of Coka). However, I think that Nowell and Coka are more effective wingers than Watson who I rate as the best FB. Daly is the best winger, IMO, with May the 2nd best.

Pretty much agree with the bolded bit, though May has vastly improved, but Watson is also a better winger than Nowell imo. Comparing Nowell to other wingers is tricky, as he is an unusual style of wing.

[p/d]

Yep. Mako for Marler (to bench), possibly Kruis for Lawes, Possibly Wilson for Underhill .....and that looks like the first choice backline. If Nowell were fit he might nab Watson's spot, though wouldn't be my choice.

As this is Eddie, who knows really.

In a straight choice for a wing slot, Nowell may well be Jones's choice.

Much as I'm a fan of Nowell, he's the 4th or 5th best back three player in the squad (depending on one's opinion of Coka). However, I think that Nowell and Coka are more effective wingers than Watson who I rate as the best FB. Daly is the best winger, IMO, with May the 2nd best.

Pretty much agree with the bolded bit, though May has vastly improved, but Watson is also a better winger than Nowell imo. Comparing Nowell to other wingers is tricky, as he is an unusual style of wing.

I have Nowell down as our best back 3. Closely followed by Watson & May

[Oakboy]

Yep. Mako for Marler (to bench), possibly Kruis for Lawes, Possibly Wilson for Underhill .....and that looks like the first choice backline. If Nowell were fit he might nab Watson's spot, though wouldn't be my choice.

As this is Eddie, who knows really.

In a straight choice for a wing slot, Nowell may well be Jones's choice.

Much as I'm a fan of Nowell, he's the 4th or 5th best back three player in the squad (depending on one's opinion of Coka). However, I think that Nowell and Coka are more effective wingers than Watson who I rate as the best FB. Daly is the best winger, IMO, with May the 2nd best.

Pretty much agree with the bolded bit, though May has vastly improved, but Watson is also a better winger than Nowell imo. Comparing Nowell to other wingers is tricky, as he is an unusual style of wing.

Yes, I don't feel strongly about Watson v Nowell as wingers and deliberately chose the word 'effective'. I think, in the main, that opposition players might like playing against Nowell less in terms of physicality and the problems of stopping him. Conversely, Watson may score a try or two more where out-and-out gas is required. Oddly enough, I'd add that the opposition probably dislike defending against Coka than either of them. Furthermore, I'd rather have Nowell or Watson under a high-ball barrage than Daly.

As you said earlier, with Jones, who knows?

[Banquo]

In a straight choice for a wing slot, Nowell may well be Jones's choice.

Much as I'm a fan of Nowell, he's the 4th or 5th best back three player in the squad (depending on one's opinion of Coka). However, I think that Nowell and Coka are more effective wingers than Watson who I rate as the best FB. Daly is the best winger, IMO, with May the 2nd best.

Pretty much agree with the bolded bit, though May has vastly improved, but Watson is also a better winger than Nowell imo. Comparing Nowell to other wingers is tricky, as he is an unusual style of wing.

I have Nowell down as our best back 3. Closely followed by Watson & May

A holy trinity to himself. Well, amazingly, we disagree,

[Banquo]

In a straight choice for a wing slot, Nowell may well be Jones's choice.

Much as I'm a fan of Nowell, he's the 4th or 5th best back three player in the squad (depending on one's opinion of Coka). However, I think that Nowell and Coka are more effective wingers than Watson who I rate as the best FB. Daly is the best winger, IMO, with May the 2nd best.

Pretty much agree with the bolded bit, though May has vastly improved, but Watson is also a better winger than Nowell imo. Comparing Nowell to other wingers is tricky, as he is an unusual style of wing.

Yes, I don't feel strongly about Watson v Nowell as wingers and deliberately chose the word 'effective'. I think, in the main, that opposition players might like playing against Nowell less in terms of physicality and the problems of stopping him. Conversely, Watson may score a try or two more where out-and-out gas is required. Oddly enough, I'd add that the opposition probably dislike defending against Coka than either of them. Furthermore, I'd rather have Nowell or Watson under a high-ball barrage than Daly.

As you said earlier, with Jones, who knows?

No decent intl winger would give a crap about Nowell's 'physicality'; he's a medium paced medium sized player with a great step and determination when not crocked. They'd fancy their chances of beating him one on one, as has been done many times. His strengths are work rate, low centre of gravity and step. Pre-injury Watson had genuine gas and a great step and was pretty effective against the big boys (16 tries in 39 games) and a first choice lion.

[Mikey Brown]

Yup. Nowell has some fantastic moments, but not enough to ignore his numerous poor ones.

I mean I’m happy to have him as an option, but he’s only ahead of McConnochie for me.

[Puja]

Why don't you read what I actually wrote and try and rid yourself of the number fixation. Or does the selective edit indicate the point at which you'd got what you wanted to reply to?

Sorry for cutting your post - no offence meant and I did actually read to the end of it. I don’t see it as being an issue of shirt numbers rather an issue of playing a specialist player in another position which imo negates his strengths somewhat.

In what way will his strengths be negated? Outside the scrum (which is usually a tiny proportion of the phases of play), what do you think he will be doing? Think you need to look at the mix of skills between Curry and Underhill, and (i) see that between them they provide balance; Curry will still be able to carry, link and support in multiphase play in attack, and jackal in defence (say)....and so on.

I'm with jngf on Curry at 6 - if you believe the talk coming out of the camp (if), then Curry is being asked to temper his natural jackalling game and do the 6 work, which I'm not sure suits him. It's not just the shirt numbers; they are being asked to perform classical open/blind responsibilities. Curry was poor against Italy, although that could just have been a one-off game, but I'd still rather have him at 7.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

The way I see it Curry and Underhill are both too good to be all that bothered about leaving one of them on the bench because they don’t fit the archetype. Wilson plays like he’s a 50 cap grizzled veteran and I’d have him in at 6 if fit, but Ludlum doesn’t offer that.

I watched a video that popped up of Tom Curry highlights expecting it to be all link play and jackals, was pretty surprised seeing how many big physical moments there were in there.