Peej wrote:Tom Willis may be a longer-term name to emerge to. Lots of people in the know claim he's a better all round player than Jack
He is young and he could emerge, but I don't see it at the moment. He's a different type of player from Jack apart from anything else. Jack has a freakish ability to hunt turnovers, which goes beyond anything I've ever seen in the English game and it sets him apart. Tom's been okay when I've seen him, but nothing that marks him out as a star of the future.
Same with Sam and Jack Maunder - "people say" that Sam is better, but I still favour Maunder the elder for his speed of service and haven't seen anything in the younger yet to make me think he's something special.
Puja
100% agree re. Jack Willis. His decision-making and timing at the breakdown is unreal and he is so difficult to dislodge. When you add in the fact that he’s a decent carrier and a strong tackler, you have a very fine prospect indeed.
I also agree on Sam Maunder. I’ve heard he’s the more highly rated but I’ve seen nothing to back that up. I thought he was poor for the U20s and hasn’t looked anything special when he’s had opportunities with Chiefs.
Peej wrote:Tom Willis may be a longer-term name to emerge to. Lots of people in the know claim he's a better all round player than Jack
He is young and he could emerge, but I don't see it at the moment. He's a different type of player from Jack apart from anything else. Jack has a freakish ability to hunt turnovers, which goes beyond anything I've ever seen in the English game and it sets him apart. Tom's been okay when I've seen him, but nothing that marks him out as a star of the future.
Same with Sam and Jack Maunder - "people say" that Sam is better, but I still favour Maunder the elder for his speed of service and haven't seen anything in the younger yet to make me think he's something special.
Puja
100% agree re. Jack Willis. His decision-making and timing at the breakdown is unreal and he is so difficult to dislodge. When you add in the fact that he’s a decent carrier and a strong tackler, you have a very fine prospect indeed.
I also agree on Sam Maunder. I’ve heard he’s the more highly rated but I’ve seen nothing to back that up. I thought he was poor for the U20s and hasn’t looked anything special when he’s had opportunities with Chiefs.
...but for injury, I think Jack Willis could well have been starring at this World Cup.
Been on the Willis bus since first time I saw him play, good to see others rate him though. He's always looked strong enough which was quite something at his age. Good to see that the likes of Curry, Ludlam and Underhill have grown into their man strength now and are putting in some eye catching performances at test level. I'm not even sure Willis will become nailed on now for Eng which is a bloody good place to be. We've got aome cracking talent.
Beasties wrote:Been on the Willis bus since first time I saw him play, good to see others rate him though. He's always looked strong enough which was quite something at his age. Good to see that the likes of Curry, Ludlam and Underhill have grown into their man strength now and are putting in some eye catching performances at test level. I'm not even sure Willis will become nailed on now for Eng which is a bloody good place to be. We've got aome cracking talent.
Indeed. Imagine if we’d had Jake Polledri too!
I think Willis’ biggest challenge at the moment is competition for places. Shields, Young and Carr are probably first choice if fit.
If Shields does keep Willis out of the Wasps side having proved he’s not up to test rugby can we put his, erm, repatriation back to Blighty down as Jones’s biggest mistake.
Beasties wrote:Been on the Willis bus since first time I saw him play, good to see others rate him though. He's always looked strong enough which was quite something at his age. Good to see that the likes of Curry, Ludlam and Underhill have grown into their man strength now and are putting in some eye catching performances at test level. I'm not even sure Willis will become nailed on now for Eng which is a bloody good place to be. We've got aome cracking talent.
Indeed. Imagine if we’d had Jake Polledri too!
I think Willis’ biggest challenge at the moment is competition for places. Shields, Young and Carr are probably first choice if fit.
Exactly the type of challenge he should both expect and relish.
Mellsblue wrote:If Shields does keep Willis out of the Wasps side having proved he’s not up to test rugby can we put his, erm, repatriation back to Blighty down as Jones’s biggest mistake.
Why? It would simply mean Willis is not good enough to oust him.
Mellsblue wrote:If Shields does keep Willis out of the Wasps side having proved he’s not up to test rugby can we put his, erm, repatriation back to Blighty down as Jones’s biggest mistake.
Why? It would simply mean Willis is not good enough to oust him.
Cos Willis has a higher ceiling and will need game time to reach it. As a huge advocate of young talent, I’m surprised you take this stance.
I'm sure Willis will get plenty of game time. He may not start every week, but he's bound to be in most matchday 23's.
It will only be a matter of time before he is first choice - that is, if he isnt already. He's up against good players in the back row but this lad does have that extra something. Frankly he's shown plenty to convince me he's going to be a fixture in the Wasps side and will be pushing hard for international honours before too long.
I'd imagine Willis is nailed on as a starter for Wasps but I doubt we'll see that for a while. He's coming back from a major injury, Dai would be daft to sling him back in full time. 23 is the right place for him for a few weeks and then the inevitable injuries will make it all a moot point anyway. No way is he behind Carr.
I wouldn’t be concerned about his gametime. He’s getting half an hour off the bench each week at a very minimum, plenty or rotation etc. He’ll come good.
It’s not like we’re in a rush to fill the 7 shirt, and my word does that seem like a weird thing to say having watched England from 2004 onwards.
Scrumhead wrote:I’m less convinced. To be clear, I’m a massive fan, but I’m not sure Dai Young sees him as a ‘nailed on starter’ ahead of Shields, Young or Carr.
He absolutely has the talent to get ahead of them but I’m not sure that will be the case in the immediate term.
I think it’s more likely he’ll make an increasingly compelling case from the bench.
He had established himself as a starter pre-injury iirc, but that’s a while ago, and pre Brad. MInd I’d think it was the coach’s boy he was up against . He seems to have got his fitness back relatively unimpaired, so I’d think its only a matter of time- but rightly he will have to earn the start.
Mikey Brown wrote:I wouldn’t be concerned about his gametime. He’s getting half an hour off the bench each week at a very minimum, plenty or rotation etc. He’ll come good.
It’s not like we’re in a rush to fill the 7 shirt, and my word does that seem like a weird thing to say having watched England from 2004 onwards.
It’s all speculative but I’d rather he was getting 60mins - 80mins in the big games and being rested in the lesser games.
Mellsblue wrote:If Shields does keep Willis out of the Wasps side having proved he’s not up to test rugby can we put his, erm, repatriation back to Blighty down as Jones’s biggest mistake.
Why? It would simply mean Willis is not good enough to oust him.
Cos Willis has a higher ceiling and will need game time to reach it. As a huge advocate of young talent, I’m surprised you take this stance.
Part of a young players transition is trying to oust the incumbent. Willis will still get plenty of game time and it is upon him to take his opportunities. He has the potential certainly, but has had a seriously rough time with injuries and is still really on his comeback trail. Stay fit, take his opportunity and he should become first choice.
Now if he were at Tigers I’d be more worried about his opportunity for game time (proof will be in the pudding ad to whether we’re actually changing). But wasps and Young have already given him opportunity and obviously see the potential in him.
Epaminondas Pules wrote:
Why? It would simply mean Willis is not good enough to oust him.
Cos Willis has a higher ceiling and will need game time to reach it. As a huge advocate of young talent, I’m surprised you take this stance.
Part of a young players transition is trying to oust the incumbent. Willis will still get plenty of game time and it is upon him to take his opportunities. He has the potential certainly, but has had a seriously rough time with injuries and is still really on his comeback trail. Stay fit, take his opportunity and he should become first choice.
Now if he were at Tigers I’d be more worried about his opportunity for game time (proof will be in the pudding ad to whether we’re actually changing). But wasps and Young have already given him opportunity and obviously see the potential in him.
Fair enough. It’s a subjective thing. I’d just rather that if he were trying to oust someone it were a test class player. I suppose part of my issue is that he looks a special talent that shouldn’t be held back and the other part is that the guy potentially slowing his progress has been brought over specifically to be fast tracked into the England team only to be a average to good premiership player. I’m also influenced by the fact that our replacement backrow for Arg may have made his international debut prior to the warm up matches had he not had his way blocked by average players at his club that he eventually proved to be superior to. I’d agree that Young has a better attitude to youth than Mallinder; however, I’d still rather Willis was getting 60mins against the big boys and rested against lesser oppo than 20 mins against the big boys and 80mins against London Irish.
Mellsblue wrote:
Cos Willis has a higher ceiling and will need game time to reach it. As a huge advocate of young talent, I’m surprised you take this stance.
Part of a young players transition is trying to oust the incumbent. Willis will still get plenty of game time and it is upon him to take his opportunities. He has the potential certainly, but has had a seriously rough time with injuries and is still really on his comeback trail. Stay fit, take his opportunity and he should become first choice.
Now if he were at Tigers I’d be more worried about his opportunity for game time (proof will be in the pudding ad to whether we’re actually changing). But wasps and Young have already given him opportunity and obviously see the potential in him.
Fair enough. It’s a subjective thing. I’d just rather that if he were trying to oust someone it were a test class player. I suppose part of my issue is that he looks a special talent that shouldn’t be held back and the other part is that the guy potentially slowing his progress has been brought over specifically to be fast tracked into the England team only to be a average to good premiership player. I’m also influenced by the fact that our replacement backrow for Arg may have made his international debut prior to the warm up matches had he not had his way blocked by average players at his club that he eventually proved to be superior to. I’d agree that Young has a better attitude to youth than Mallinder; however, I’d still rather Willis was getting 60mins against the big boys and rested against lesser oppo than 20 mins against the big boys and 80mins against London Irish.
I think you may be overworrying. Willis has consistently made his way to being first choice when fit, demanding it with performances, and he's got an ideal showcase in the Prem Cup to stake his claim. He'll be first choice at season start and it'll be Young, Carr, and Shields scrapping over the other two shirts.
. He seems to have got his fitness back relatively unimpaired, so I’d think its only a matter of time- but rightly he will have to earn the start.