Saracens V Leicester tigers AP SF 1 (12 PM KO, Saturday 20th BT sport)

[p/d]

Another pinpoint, incisive, rapier like pass from Youngs.

He's drawing in defenders! I'm repeatedly assured that this is a positive thing.

First half and trying to work the ball to the outside and he looks poor, early in the 2nd half going much more direct and he looks a player. Like a few others on show today he's got a lot to like about his game, but he certainly doesn't have an all court game

Thought him a complete embarrassment in the lead up to Ashton's second try.

[fivepointer]

Youngs was awful but thats his default setting. He wasnt alone today as most of the Tigers players managed to make themselves look also rans.

Good cameo from Genge, who could make the Saxons tour along with Thacker and Barrow.

Saracens won with something to spare in truth, though amazingly managed to go through the whole game without once getting penalised for backfoot offside at a breakdown. Have officials just stopped trying to manage this aspect of play?

[Digby]

It's always been known that with pressure on the breakdown comes a less than polished performance from Youngs, which isn't to say I'm in a rush to see Youngs retained with England, subject to some big developments I gave up on Youngs and Care a long time back. Tigers though need to look a lot more at their breakdown and support work an awful lot more than their 9 when it comes to the loss today, they were making chances but couldn't join the phases up, Youngs is a part of that problem, but their back row (and indeed pack) were way too slow in getting to the breakdown when you'd like to think they knew where they were going.

Tom Croft must be showing miserably in training if he can't get in ahead of the starters today.

[Banquo]

It's always been known that with pressure on the breakdown comes a less than polished performance from Youngs, which isn't to say I'm in a rush to see Youngs retained with England, subject to some big developments I gave up on Youngs and Care a long time back. Tigers though need to look a lot more at their breakdown and support work an awful lot more than their 9 when it comes to the loss today, they were making chances but couldn't join the phases up, Youngs is a part of that problem, but their back row (and indeed pack) were way too slow in getting to the breakdown when you'd like to think they knew where they were going.

Tom Croft must be showing miserably in training if he can't get in ahead of the starters today.

Odd because he's looked better than decent when playing.

Recorded it- is it worth watching?

[Peej]

Thought McCaffrey and Betham looked good for Leicester. Veainu made some great runs but fumbled a few passes. Thacker again showed up well

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Youngs was awful but thats his default setting. He wasnt alone today as most of the Tigers players managed to make themselves look also rans.

Good cameo from Genge, who could make the Saxons tour along with Thacker and Barrow.

Saracens won with something to spare in truth, though amazingly managed to go through the whole game without once getting penalised for backfoot offside at a breakdown. Have officials just stopped trying to manage this aspect of play?

Yes.

[Nightynight]

Controversial, but having taken the time to watch him for Leinster a few times recently Ben Te'o is a better bet than Manu at 12 right now.

I have probably made my thoughts on Teo clear already but I feel we should just try and develop what we've done with Jones so far rather than opting for the (very questionable) replacement for a guy that wasn't even involved very much.

Let's take Tuilagi's recent misfortune as a sign to put a pin in this boulder at 12 idea.

trouble is if Tuilagi doesn't go on a tour over the summer, will he get to spend it sitting on a beach in Samoa eating lamb flop kebabs again? Because it did him no good this season and if he does, then I think we are potentially looking at a "wasted" talent TBH.

A harsh and bleak comment, but I have a bad feeling about Tuilagi if he doesn't spend the summer getting match fit that's what we'll end up with, a good club player who never made his full potential in the sport due to injuries and a lack of discipline

[twitchy]

Incredibly frustrating news.

[Oakboy]

Controversial, but having taken the time to watch him for Leinster a few times recently Ben Te'o is a better bet than Manu at 12 right now.

I have probably made my thoughts on Teo clear already but I feel we should just try and develop what we've done with Jones so far rather than opting for the (very questionable) replacement for a guy that wasn't even involved very much.

Let's take Tuilagi's recent misfortune as a sign to put a pin in this boulder at 12 idea.

trouble is if Tuilagi doesn't go on a tour over the summer, will he get to spend it sitting on a beach in Samoa eating lamb flop kebabs again? Because it did him no good this season and if he does, then I think we are potentially looking at a "wasted" talent TBH.

A harsh and bleak comment, but I have a bad feeling about Tuilagi if he doesn't spend the summer getting match fit that's what we'll end up with, a good club player who never made his full potential in the sport due to injuries and a lack of discipline

A good international rugby player needs brain, character and self-discipline. Natural ability and physicality are insufficient.

[Banquo]

I have probably made my thoughts on Teo clear already but I feel we should just try and develop what we've done with Jones so far rather than opting for the (very questionable) replacement for a guy that wasn't even involved very much.

Let's take Tuilagi's recent misfortune as a sign to put a pin in this boulder at 12 idea.

trouble is if Tuilagi doesn't go on a tour over the summer, will he get to spend it sitting on a beach in Samoa eating lamb flop kebabs again? Because it did him no good this season and if he does, then I think we are potentially looking at a "wasted" talent TBH.

A harsh and bleak comment, but I have a bad feeling about Tuilagi if he doesn't spend the summer getting match fit that's what we'll end up with, a good club player who never made his full potential in the sport due to injuries and a lack of discipline

A good international rugby player needs brain, character and self-discipline. Natural ability and physicality are insufficient.

This is true- though I'm not sure lack of discipline in training is Manu's issue. Suspect whoever is talking to him about bio-mechanics is either not getting through, or doesn't know what they are doing.

He is still relatively young, so would hope he can find someone to work with to get him through the leg muscle injuries.

[Tigersman]

trouble is if Tuilagi doesn't go on a tour over the summer, will he get to spend it sitting on a beach in Samoa eating lamb flop kebabs again? Because it did him no good this season and if he does, then I think we are potentially looking at a "wasted" talent TBH.

A harsh and bleak comment, but I have a bad feeling about Tuilagi if he doesn't spend the summer getting match fit that's what we'll end up with, a good club player who never made his full potential in the sport due to injuries and a lack of discipline

A good international rugby player needs brain, character and self-discipline. Natural ability and physicality are insufficient.

This is true- though I'm not sure lack of discipline in training is Manu's issue. Suspect whoever is talking to him about bio-mechanics is either not getting through, or doesn't know what they are doing.

This has nothing to do with him getting poor info this has been a Tuilagi problem since Freddie just came to Tigers every pre0-season if they have no international games they always ballooned over summer.

Mind I can't remember the last time he had a full pre-season at full fitness anyway.

[oldbackrow]

Mind I can't remember the last time he had a full pre-season at full fitness anyway.

Which is the major worrying thing at his age!

[Banquo]

A good international rugby player needs brain, character and self-discipline. Natural ability and physicality are insufficient.

This is true- though I'm not sure lack of discipline in training is Manu's issue. Suspect whoever is talking to him about bio-mechanics is either not getting through, or doesn't know what they are doing.

This has nothing to do with him getting poor info this has been a Tuilagi problem since Freddie just came to Tigers every pre0-season if they have no international games they always ballooned over summer.

Mind I can't remember the last time he had a full pre-season at full fitness anyway.

Not sure what ballooning - though you are telling me he has poor discipline- and persistent hamstring injuries have directly to do with each other frankly. Somebody needs to look at it in the round, unless as you imply he's just ignoring conditioning advice.

As a club, Tigers need to take a view if he isn't looking after himself, rather than shrug its shoulders and call it 'Tuilagi problem'. He gets paid a lot of money to not be fit! However, he hasn't looked overweight so much to me in all honesty.

[Oakboy]

Maybe Leicester have tried. I wouldn't know. Whoever is in charge of his fitness/conditioning needs to admit there is a problem that he is most unlikely to fix himself. He may be young but how likely is he to suffer less injuries as he gets older and the joint damage stacks up? If I was his manager I'd be seriously worried. Something needs to change before it is too late - and I've been saying it for many months and at least two injuries.

[Banquo]

Maybe Leicester have tried. I wouldn't know. Whoever is in charge of his fitness/conditioning needs to admit there is a problem that he is most unlikely to fix himself. He may be young but how likely is he to suffer less injuries as he gets older and the joint damage stacks up? If I was his manager I'd be seriously worried. Something needs to change before it is too late - and I've been saying it for many months and at least two injuries.

agreed, its hard to know whether he is getting good advice and ignoring it, getting bad advice, or getting no advice...or even getting good advice and he's very unlucky. It is HIS career, and he needs to take responsibility for it when all's said and done though.

Though I'm not sure about your joint damage comment- from what I remember its all been muscular damage, one of which was just bad luck/one of those things.

[Oakboy]

Maybe Leicester have tried. I wouldn't know. Whoever is in charge of his fitness/conditioning needs to admit there is a problem that he is most unlikely to fix himself. He may be young but how likely is he to suffer less injuries as he gets older and the joint damage stacks up? If I was his manager I'd be seriously worried. Something needs to change before it is too late - and I've been saying it for many months and at least two injuries.

agreed, its hard to know whether he is getting good advice and ignoring it, getting bad advice, or getting no advice...or even getting good advice and he's very unlucky. It is HIS career, and he needs to take responsibility for it when all's said and done though.

Though I'm not sure about your joint damage comment- from what I remember its all been muscular damage, one of which was just bad luck/one of those things.

I was meaning that joints get worn from impact damage which then leads to more muscle damage as body balance suffers. I'd guess that wil happen earlier with him than most because of the way he plays.

[Banquo]

Maybe Leicester have tried. I wouldn't know. Whoever is in charge of his fitness/conditioning needs to admit there is a problem that he is most unlikely to fix himself. He may be young but how likely is he to suffer less injuries as he gets older and the joint damage stacks up? If I was his manager I'd be seriously worried. Something needs to change before it is too late - and I've been saying it for many months and at least two injuries.

agreed, its hard to know whether he is getting good advice and ignoring it, getting bad advice, or getting no advice...or even getting good advice and he's very unlucky. It is HIS career, and he needs to take responsibility for it when all's said and done though.

Though I'm not sure about your joint damage comment- from what I remember its all been muscular damage, one of which was just bad luck/one of those things.

I was meaning that joints get worn from impact damage which then leads to more muscle damage as body balance suffers. I'd guess that wil happen earlier with him than most because of the way he plays.

...well given the paucity of rugby he has had, I'm not so worried about that. Though if he is carrying excess baggage its not ideal

[Epaminondas Pules]

I didn't realise that a groin injury is very much related to a left medial ligament strain from a twisted knee and a right hamstring tear.

Who'd have thought it.

[Banquo]

I didn't realise that a groin injury is very much related to a left medial ligament strain from a twisted knee and a right hamstring tear.

Who'd have thought it.

yes, it could all could be complete bad luck. But its not the first hamstring pull he has had either- though they are common. So are you suggesting there is no issue with his conditioning?

[Epaminondas Pules]

I didn't realise that a groin injury is very much related to a left medial ligament strain from a twisted knee and a right hamstring tear.

Who'd have thought it.

yes, it could all could be complete bad luck. But its not the first hamstring pull he has had either- though they are common. So are you suggesting there is no issue with his conditioning?

I'm suggesting linking three unrelated injuries seems rather odd. Aside from January having only just come back from 15 months wasn't his last hamstring problem about 5 years ago? Mind the same was said about Tom Croft who had a terrible run of completely unrelated injuries. Mind it was slightly more extreme where a knee injury and dislocated shoulder were somehow related.

Did Manu come back unfit after 15 months out? Yes. Now there's a major shock.

Does he generally have issues with his conditioning? No. Not when he's match fit.

[Banquo]

I didn't realise that a groin injury is very much related to a left medial ligament strain from a twisted knee and a right hamstring tear.

Who'd have thought it.

yes, it could all could be complete bad luck. But its not the first hamstring pull he has had either- though they are common. So are you suggesting there is no issue with his conditioning?

I'm suggesting linking three unrelated injuries seems rather odd. Aside from January having only just come back from 15 months wasn't his last hamstring problem about 5 years ago? Mind the same was said about Tom Croft who had a terrible run of completely unrelated injuries. Mind it was slightly more extreme where a knee injury and dislocated shoulder were somehow related.

Did Manu come back unfit after 15 months out? Yes. Now there's a major shock.

Does he generally have issues with his conditioning? No. Not when he's match fit.

Totally agree on Croft, and that's omitting the broken neck; but it does seem that Manu has had a lot of lower body injuries, and it maybe that the groin and hamstring are actually related- lower back for example. I have never really noticed that he has been carrying much body fat, so I didn't mean general conditioning- I meant specific lower body work, bio mechanics, as wasn't he out not long ago for a hamstring strain (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/ ... -leicester), and he was out for a long long time with the groin strain. If you don't believe its an issue, and its plain bad luck, fine-- I'd just hope he is getting the right advice.

[Mellsblue]

I didn't realise that a groin injury is very much related to a left medial ligament strain from a twisted knee and a right hamstring tear.

Who'd have thought it.

yes, it could all could be complete bad luck. But its not the first hamstring pull he has had either- though they are common. So are you suggesting there is no issue with his conditioning?

I'm suggesting linking three unrelated injuries seems rather odd. Aside from January having only just come back from 15 months wasn't his last hamstring problem about 5 years ago? Mind the same was said about Tom Croft who had a terrible run of completely unrelated injuries. Mind it was slightly more extreme where a knee injury and dislocated shoulder were somehow related.

Did Manu come back unfit after 15 months out? Yes. Now there's a major shock.

Does he generally have issues with his conditioning? No. Not when he's match fit.

There could be issues with his body composition though. There is a lot of muscle in that frame and if it's not all properly and evenly balanced it can lead to problems. Hamstring and groin are particularly susceptible to this. That there were rumours coming out that Leicester's conditioning team were limiting his time in the gym tells you there might be issues there. I don't think it's unreasonable to question this. Sheridan had plenty of ligament injuries and there was a school of thought that he was just too big for his joints. Of course, it could just be bad luck but to question that it might not be is hardly scandalous.

[Timbo]

Hes had some soft tissue issues in the first 5/6 months since coming back from 15 months out. That doesnt strike me as being particularly uncommon or worrisome. Prior to his groin injury he'd had 1? fairly major injury in his career.