Next Coach?

[Big D]

I can take losing 3 or 4 games in the 6N and being papped out in the group stages of a RWC. Losing happens and realistically given where we are there is a fair chance we will lose more than we win in the 6N and have a battle to make the last 8.

What boils my piss is the consistently unorganised defence, no real game plans past plan A and rabbit in the headlights shite we get in the big games too often from this side. I am not optimistic that this coaching staff have enough about them to drive the team forward.

[Cameo]

Bar Laidlaw being weird, in that even if you get fast ball he's not going to use it anyway, the three main areas as ever are set piece, attacking the breakdown to secure ball and deliver quick ball, Townsend quite reasonably is better at addressing what happens once the ball is won, or so it seems, and defence.

Okay nobody bar Japan is going to get 200 days to drill a side over and over, and they look very drilled, but there is scope to address patterns of play across just two clubs if you want the test side to be the priority

I still think by having Cockerill at Edinburgh we are losing the potential advantage having only two teams give us. They have a good squad now but they play a very different (and I would say, more limited) game than Glasgow.

[Digby]

Bar Laidlaw being weird, in that even if you get fast ball he's not going to use it anyway, the three main areas as ever are set piece, attacking the breakdown to secure ball and deliver quick ball, Townsend quite reasonably is better at addressing what happens once the ball is won, or so it seems, and defence.

Okay nobody bar Japan is going to get 200 days to drill a side over and over, and they look very drilled, but there is scope to address patterns of play across just two clubs if you want the test side to be the priority

I still think by having Cockerill at Edinburgh we are losing the potential advantage having only two teams give us. They have a good squad now but they play a very different (and I would say, more limited) game than Glasgow.

it is a bit weird, but then what union isn't a bit weird. As so often in life and business the SRU and the clubs don't seem to have actually asked and answered what is it we're even trying to do?

[Big D]

A bit off topic but the Japan 200 days thing is interesting as is the statement of someone high up there that they can develop players better outside Super Rugby. This seems to fit a trend of players who have come back from injury being parachuted straight into important matches and big name players barely being involved in pre season matches for their clubs.

Are coaches/sports scientists so confident in their methods that playing at a high level is no longer the best preparation? I suspect there is a happy medium but what implications does that have? In trying to help second tier nations do we concentrate more on hard cash allowing training camps rather than getting players involved at a higher level? Should we be aiming to make the Pro14 just a straight home and away against your conference before the playoffs, therefore freeing up much more training time?

The danger is that it promotes a narrow view of success with the very elite locked away in training camps and others left in the cold. E.g. the approach could maybe get Georgia to a World Cup quarter final or probably would help Germany qualify for a World Cup but it would be divorcing them from any wider growth in rugby there

To be fair, Scotland were in camp for over 100 days apparently. Plus the 6N and previous AIs he would have had 150+ contact days.

[whatisthejava]

Toony has been trying to move to a kicking based game for about a year , he doesn’t trust the players to hold onto the ball and unfortunatly the players we have just don’t fit that style at all and if you watch Japan and NZ there really is no need to constantly kick the ball away.

Kicking the ball away is only useful if you have a plan to get it back that will work.

Scotland actually play better ball in hand and as can be seen you can beat defenses as long as you are moving fast enough and varying the attack.

We trusted Finn and Hogg to do most of the heavily lifting and it bit us in the ass.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

Toony has been trying to move to a kicking based game for about a year , he doesn’t trust the players to hold onto the ball and unfortunatly the players we have just don’t fit that style at all and if you watch Japan and NZ there really is no need to constantly kick the ball away.

Kicking the ball away is only useful if you have a plan to get it back that will work.

Scotland actually play better ball in hand and as can be seen you can beat defenses as long as you are moving fast enough and varying the attack.

We trusted Finn and Hogg to do most of the heavily lifting and it bit us in the ass.

Hogg & Finn are potential game breakers. NOT game plans in itself as you correctly point out.

[Donny osmond]

Couple of articles in the press today that are pretty stark. Iain Morrison in the Scotsman really laying into GT but also saying he should be given time as long as he shows he's learning lessons and evolving. David Barnes in the herald giving some data on playing numbers and suggests of the 37000 registered players in Scotland only about 5000 are adult males. Dont know where he gets that from but if it's anywhere close to accurate it tells quite a tale.

Harsh fact may be that, while we can still produce world class individuals, we just arent a tier 1 nation overall.

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[Mikey Brown]

Couple of articles in the press today that are pretty stark. Iain Morrison in the Scotsman really laying into GT but also saying he should be given time as long as he shows he's learning lessons and evolving. David Barnes in the herald giving some data on playing numbers and suggests of the 37000 registered players in Scotland only about 5000 are adult males. Dont know where he gets that from but if it's anywhere close to accurate it tells quite a tale.

Harsh fact may be that, while we can still produce world class individuals, we just arent a tier 1 nation overall.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

What? So there’s shitloads of kids and women playing or do you mean something else?

[Donny osmond]

Couple of articles in the press today that are pretty stark. Iain Morrison in the Scotsman really laying into GT but also saying he should be given time as long as he shows he's learning lessons and evolving. David Barnes in the herald giving some data on playing numbers and suggests of the 37000 registered players in Scotland only about 5000 are adult males. Dont know where he gets that from but if it's anywhere close to accurate it tells quite a tale.

Harsh fact may be that, while we can still produce world class individuals, we just arent a tier 1 nation overall.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

What? So there’s shitloads of kids and women playing or do you mean something else?

That was the inference although he didnt say it directly

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

[Stones of granite]

Couple of articles in the press today that are pretty stark. Iain Morrison in the Scotsman really laying into GT but also saying he should be given time as long as he shows he's learning lessons and evolving. David Barnes in the herald giving some data on playing numbers and suggests of the 37000 registered players in Scotland only about 5000 are adult males. Dont know where he gets that from but if it's anywhere close to accurate it tells quite a tale.

Harsh fact may be that, while we can still produce world class individuals, we just arent a tier 1 nation overall.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

What? So there’s shitloads of kids and women playing or do you mean something else?

That number wouldn’t surprise me at all, knowing what I do about the state of grassroots Rugby and the number of what were once significant clubs who now struggle to put 15 players on the pitch.
Mini Rugby, on the other hand, has never been more popular and there are clubs who, as I said, are struggling to put out a 1st XV but which regularly have 100+ kids at mini’s sessions.

[General Zod]

Couple of articles in the press today that are pretty stark. Iain Morrison in the Scotsman really laying into GT but also saying he should be given time as long as he shows he's learning lessons and evolving. David Barnes in the herald giving some data on playing numbers and suggests of the 37000 registered players in Scotland only about 5000 are adult males. Dont know where he gets that from but if it's anywhere close to accurate it tells quite a tale.

Harsh fact may be that, while we can still produce world class individuals, we just arent a tier 1 nation overall.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

What? So there’s shitloads of kids and women playing or do you mean something else?

That number wouldn’t surprise me at all, knowing what I do about the state of grassroots Rugby and the number of what were once significant clubs who now struggle to put 15 players on the pitch.
Mini Rugby, on the other hand, has never been more popular and there are clubs who, as I said, are struggling to put out a 1st XV but which regularly have 100+ kids at mini’s sessions.

This is some of the reason I reckon investment in sevens will form a part of the solution. Being 18 or early 20s nowadays is not like it was even 20 years ago. It’s very difficult for people that age to commit the time to the game necessary to swell the numbers. Add wage-reducing injuries to that mix, and rugby doesn’t hold the same attraction it did for many. Sevens will free up some of that time as well as attract newcomers to the game. From these numbers, more people will want to go on to 15s.

Another reason numbers are shrinking is because so many kids are computer-playing fannies nowadays. Just thought I’d get that in.

[whatisthejava]

Minis rugby is on the up in the 8 years I have been coaching we have grown 2.5x our number but have not put a 2xv all season.

I’m not sure it’s computer games but it’s a big chunk out your Saturday, coaches wanting you down 2 hours before the game and then at least an hour after means even with a home game your not back in the house till 6.

We played a couple of Friday night foxtures and the number of people that were available almost doubled. Rugby like other sports needs to realize that they are competing in a market and they need to be much more flexible if they want numbers to grow.

Also with austerity most councils have cut their development officer role and the chance to grab more kids is disappearing.

[Big D]

I’m not sure it’s computer games but it’s a big chunk out your Saturday, coaches wanting you down 2 hours before the game and then at least an hour after means even with a home game your not back in the house till 6.

We played a couple of Friday night foxtures and the number of people that were available almost doubled. Rugby like other sports needs to realize that they are competing in a market and they need to be much more flexible if they want numbers to grow.

This is without doubt a major reason. Especially in the Caley region when Midlands sides need to travel to Orkney, Caithness (not this year) and other teams way up north.

"Wasn't like this in my day" is a popular saying amongst the older club members but work, child care and even guys weekends with their kids now mean it is more difficult to give up whole days (if not more) for a game of rugby.

I quit playing at 30 because I had to get my shoulder fixed and had 8 weeks off work post op. With a kid due and my wife not working I couldn't risk another rugby related absence of that sort of length. I have spent time on the committee and know several players since I stopped playing who have felt similarly.

Even now thinking about it, I was always sore on a Sunday and even a Monday after a game and I know some guys who still play that are the same. That impacts family time and work and for some it wont be worth it.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

Agree with most of the comments so far. The older generation won't like me for saying so but it is much harder & much more time intensive to build a good quality of life nowadays than it was a couple of decades ago. Dual-income households are now a necessity, chuck a couple of kids into the equation and a hobby like rugby just isn't feasible unless you're really dedicated.

[whatisthejava]

Agree with most of the comments so far. The older generation won't like me for saying so but it is much harder & much more time intensive to build a good quality of life nowadays than it was a couple of decades ago. Dual-income households are now a necessity, chuck a couple of kids into the equation and a hobby like rugby just isn't feasible unless you're really dedicated.

the last couple of years i played i just told the guys that if i was playing i would turn up 30 mins before the game warm up and then leave straight after, wasnt fair on my kids to lose all day saturday for sitting in the club house

[sharvey44]

I think this is pretty much it. I'm not playing this year because a) I feel guilty not spending enough time with the family b) I can't afford to get injured as I'm self-employed and c) I'm getting older and I don't want to become a forward, no-one wants a shit, slow, centre in the team.

[Stones of granite]

Well, this is depressing.
What the fuck has changed so much? I played all the way through my late teens while studying for an Engineering Degree, my early twenties while trying to build a career, my late twenties and early thirties with three young children, and my early forties as a fat knackered old has-been, and I'd still be on the pitch now if my knees would let me.
In fact, I still spend all Saturday afternoon in the clubhouse with the other fossils.

[Big D]

Well, this is depressing.
What the fuck has changed so much? I played all the way through my late teens while studying for an Engineering Degree, my early twenties while trying to build a career, my late twenties and early thirties with three young children, and my early forties as a fat knackered old has-been, and I'd still be on the pitch now if my knees would let me.
In fact, I still spend all Saturday afternoon in the clubhouse with the other fossils.

In my last season, ok second last as the last one was a write off after doing my shoulder I was easily giving up nearly 20 hours a week to rugby some weeks. Was in the gym for 90min M, W + F, plus 3 hours on a T+T for training. For home games the 1s had to be there 90min before kick off, play the game and then stay afterwards for a bit. So easily 4-5 hours. In the Caley region because the North wont split from the Midlands we could have been playing anywhere from Hillfoots (about a 40min drive from us) or Orkney which is a leave on Friday night and get back the wee hours of Sunday job.

That isn't including things that were put off because of rugby, or I couldn't go to because I was playing the next day or too sore the day after a game.

SoG, from talking to the old farts at the club basically the world around us has changed:
- The wummin folk aren't solely responsible for the upbringing of their children. (not saying this was exclusively the case but just what I have found)
- Both parents work more often and childcare is an issue.
- More guys are split from, or were never with the mother of their child(ren) and some only get weekend access.
- Jobs, more seem to be on zero hour contracts, are self employed, or in jobs they could be replaced in pretty easily.
- To play 1s to even a semi decent level players are spending more time in the gym than before.
- Even low league clubs are trying to get players to the club 90min - 2hrs before kick off.
- People are more aware of long term effects of injuries and a small % are quitting earlier than their 80's or 80's equivalent might.

[Big D]

It is the same reason, or one of, that golf is struggling. No one has the time to play 4-5hr rounds of golf or the money to justify paying a membership to play enough to get value.

[Stones of granite]

It is the same reason, or one of, that golf is struggling. No one has the time to play 4-5hr rounds of golf or the money to justify paying a membership to play enough to get value.

I don't mean to appear as if I'm criticising, I'm not, I'm just trying to understand what has changed. Frankly, I don't think the world has changed as much as people are making out. However, from what you and others have written, it seems to me that the problems stem from people not wanting to commit the same amount of time to their sport while simultaneously club coaches are being more demanding.

So, basically, the game's fucked because nobody wants to commit any time to it any more.

[switchskier]

It is the same reason, or one of, that golf is struggling. No one has the time to play 4-5hr rounds of golf or the money to justify paying a membership to play enough to get value.

I don't mean to appear as if I'm criticising, I'm not, I'm just trying to understand what has changed. Frankly, I don't think the world has changed as much as people are making out. However, from what you and others have written, it seems to me that the problems stem from people not wanting to commit the same amount of time to their sport while simultaneously club coaches are being more demanding.

So, basically, the game's fucked because nobody wants to commit any time to it any more.

I think it's mostly that but also a bit of a change in culture. I don't really play team sports anymore but do try and get out and cycle regularly. That still takes a few hours but I can do it early in the morning and be home by 10:30 on a Sunday. To play rugby takes up pretty much the entire day if it's a 2pm kick off, with a few drinks after, despite the time spent exercising being about the same.

[Big D]

It is the same reason, or one of, that golf is struggling. No one has the time to play 4-5hr rounds of golf or the money to justify paying a membership to play enough to get value.

I don't mean to appear as if I'm criticising, I'm not, I'm just trying to understand what has changed. Frankly, I don't think the world has changed as much as people are making out. However, from what you and others have written, it seems to me that the problems stem from people not wanting to commit the same amount of time to their sport while simultaneously club coaches are being more demanding.

So, basically, the game's fucked because nobody wants to commit any time to it any more.

I think not wanting to is too strong, it is more not being able to because of things at home (work, working homers, 2nd jobs, kids, your weekend with the kids etc). The social culture absolutely has changed.

The club I was involved with as a player and committee member (now just a member) still manages to mostly put 2 teams out but when the decision has to be made between kids/money/job or any social/sporting activity that takes up a lot of time then the social/sport will come second for many people. The days of clubs helping cover the costs of guys missing a shift at work are long gone for most.

I would argue that as well as culture, rugby itself has changed. To play 1s at a decent (not even high) level now the old Tues/Thurs/Sat with a few runs for cardio doesn't cut it. And if you don't you will often be up against sides that do and that ain't fun for anyone.

It is worth noting that some clubs are doing reasonably well. I have heard that Dunfermline have had enough for 3 or 4 teams (not sure if true) and they are Caley 1.

[Stones of granite]

It is the same reason, or one of, that golf is struggling. No one has the time to play 4-5hr rounds of golf or the money to justify paying a membership to play enough to get value.

I don't mean to appear as if I'm criticising, I'm not, I'm just trying to understand what has changed. Frankly, I don't think the world has changed as much as people are making out. However, from what you and others have written, it seems to me that the problems stem from people not wanting to commit the same amount of time to their sport while simultaneously club coaches are being more demanding.

So, basically, the game's fucked because nobody wants to commit any time to it any more.

I think not wanting to is too strong, it is more not being able to because of things at home (work, working homers, 2nd jobs, kids, your weekend with the kids etc). The social culture absolutely has changed.

The club I was involved with as a player and committee member (now just a member) still manages to mostly put 2 teams out but when the decision has to be made between kids/money/job or any social/sporting activity that takes up a lot of time then the social/sport will come second for many people. The days of clubs helping cover the costs of guys missing a shift at work are long gone for most.

I would argue that as well as culture, rugby itself has changed. To play 1s at a decent (not even high) level now the old Tues/Thurs/Sat with a few runs for cardio doesn't cut it. And if you don't you will often be up against sides that do and that ain't fun for anyone.

It is worth noting that some clubs are doing reasonably well. I have heard that Dunfermline have had enough for 3 or 4 teams (not sure if true) and they are Caley 1.

D, I know your club very well, and I also know Dunfermline very well. I definitely had not heard that about them, and if it's true. it is massively surprising considering the state that clubs like Hillfoots, Alloa, and Rosyth are in.

[Big D]

It is also no coincidence if Dunfermline are strong that those sides are not.

To be honest it is pretty good that 4 of the Fife sides regularly get 2 sides out as often as they do. Plus all the Midlands teams that gets 1s out (even with 14). I have noticed a few things that also will hurt numbers (some specific to Midlands rugby).

1. Some clubs have lost their u18 teams due to lack of numbers. This will in turn hurt 1st and 2nd senior sides.

2. The SRU threaten fines to sides who can't fulfil league fixtures. Years ago some 2nd XVs were added to the leagues to try and help pad out fixture lists.

3. Not splitting Midlands and north resulting in daft amounts of travel for small clubs.

4. Probably having too many rugby clubs competing in small areas.

5. Schools not coaching rugby as much. This means the clubs have to go into schools when/if they can.

[Big D]

Oh and H+S making it harder for young lads to play senior rugby. I made my 1st XV debut at 15. Then played U16s on the Sunday. Don't get that anymore.

Not saying that's a bad thing.

I reckon we lose a high percentage of the players that stop in the 16-18age group.