England vs New Zealand - World Ranked #2 vs World Ranked #1

[Lizard]

Hansen saying they are going to target our line out.

Picks a lock at 6 and then drops the bombshell that they're going to target our lineout? Truly, he is a master of subterfuge.

I'm hoping Borthwick's kept the powder dry on some lineout moves. He was the man that ran the Japanese lineout in the first South Africa game, so he's got form in getting results against a physically taller lineout.

Puja

SBarrett has been calling line outs in his sleep. Reckon he’s up for this.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rugb ... app-iPhone

[Danno]

Lawcurtoje will cope

Which, what have you done?

Puja

I, for one, am appalled that he is failing to rise to the bait. And we all know he's seen this by now. Shocking.

[p/d]

Marvellous news Wilson is in the 23. He will play a key role in ensuring we win this one.

[p/d]

I think I remember you coming out during that horrible discussion we had about whether to ‘allow’ gay players to shower with straight players. There was one bloke who was convinced that he was so desirable that any gay man seeing him naked in a shower would find it impossible to not throw themselves at him. On the plus side, he was roundly condoned. On the negative side, you then felt free to tell us about your worrying crush on Geoff Parling. Not Lewsey, Cohen or Slade but Geoff ‘Santa’s tallest helper’ Parling. I think we were all happy when he retired, and it have nothing to do with his performances on the field.

[TheDasher]

Do you recall what he was like in his initial run at 15 for Wasps a few years back?

I remember being very impressed with the regular searing breaks but not paying much attention to the areas he's now falling down a bit as an international 15. Maybe it was more that he was young and promising than actually looking the part as a fullback.

I'd call him a brave defender but I've never been particularly impressed with his actual tackling. He seemed to just innately understand his defensive positioning on the wing, which is so much of the job, but I never felt like that with him at centre.

Agree with all of that, he did play well for Wasps at 15. Totally agree too, he's a world class winger, I loved him on the wing for England, he was so creative and skillful.

My side of this discussion has run its course really, I just don't think his defence over many years at 13 for Wasps ever looked as shaky as it has done at 15 for England, that's my only point, and it's not a very valuable one

[TheDasher]

The stick Daly gets for his defence at 15 would be as nothing compared to what he'd get at 13.

I think we've done this a few times before, you and I. Daly at 13 for Wasps was mostly excellent.

Mostly missing a couple of tackles a game at 13. I really like him as a player, notably wing, but his defence was not top notch at 13- which is why we have done this before. Why would I have changed my view, since he has hardly played there since last debated?

Ok!

[TheDasher]

Really? I remember it being his major weakness.

Puja

You honestly think his defence at 13 for Wasps over the many years he played there was as bad as it has been for England at 15?

That's somewhat sideways to the original proposition. I don't think his defence at 13 is as bad as it is at 15, but that a) is a bar set so low you could trip over it and b) doesn't make his defence at 13 suitable for an international team.

Puja

I'm not sure I agree, I think he's certainly suitable or shall we say good enough to play 13 internationally when considering all of his skill set, including his defence. Nobody ever really ran round him on an outside arc at 13 as for a centre, he's bloody quick. But anyway, Jones isn't going to pick him there.

Let's pray for a one of his good days at 15!

Wonderful seeing Daly sything through a defence from the back when it happens, let's hope he doesn't have to make a try-saving tackle.

[Digby]

That is how Daly tries to defend though, by not letting people run an outside arc so he can make a cover tackle. Which sometimes works for him at 13 and 15, but sometimes when he gets squared up is an issue. And logic says there would be more instances of getting squared up at 13 than 15. So to complain about his defence at 15 and then advocate he should play 13 is an example of someone not agreeing with themself

[twitchy]

I'm starting to get nervous now.

[fivepointer]

I can forgive the odd defensive lapse as long as Daly makes a full contribution to our attacking game.
If he doesnt, then his frailties magnify and you wonder why he's been given the shirt.

[Scrumhead]

Exactly my thoughts. We know he is a weak defender who’s not much cop under a high ball, but he can be great joining the attack.

The latter only outweighs the former if he’s actively involved in attack.

[TheDasher]

That is how Daly tries to defend though, by not letting people run an outside arc so he can make a cover tackle. Which sometimes works for him at 13 and 15, but sometimes when he gets squared up is an issue. And logic says there would be more instances of getting squared up at 13 than 15. So to complain about his defence at 15 and then advocate he should play 13 is an example of someone not agreeing with themself

I completely disagree. At 15, he struggles with his defensive decision making, he's got to track and engage the runner who is often in acres of space and he get's it wrong. Defending at 13 isn't like that generally. But this is painful so I'll just say it, he's also a shit defender at 13. There we are.

[Mikey Brown]

There we go. That wasn't so hard now was it? Just put "Elliot Daly is a shit defender at 13" in your signature and then we can all get on with our lives.

[Stom]

That is how Daly tries to defend though, by not letting people run an outside arc so he can make a cover tackle. Which sometimes works for him at 13 and 15, but sometimes when he gets squared up is an issue. And logic says there would be more instances of getting squared up at 13 than 15. So to complain about his defence at 15 and then advocate he should play 13 is an example of someone not agreeing with themself

I completely disagree. At 15, he struggles with his defensive decision making, he's got to track and engage the runner who is often in acres of space and he get's it wrong. Defending at 13 isn't like that generally. But this is painful so I'll just say it, he's also a shit defender at 13. There we are.

Welcome to arguing with Diggers.

[Digby]

Exactly my thoughts. We know he is a weak defender who’s not much cop under a high ball, but he can be great joining the attack.

The latter only outweighs the former if he’s actively involved in attack.

Sort of, but you don't need the ball to come your way to influence attack, a defence only needs to know and have to adjust to the idea you could. In many ways you're doing your job at 15 in attack and defence if you never touch the ball because the other side wishes to avoid including you on attack and/or defence

[Digby]

That is how Daly tries to defend though, by not letting people run an outside arc so he can make a cover tackle. Which sometimes works for him at 13 and 15, but sometimes when he gets squared up is an issue. And logic says there would be more instances of getting squared up at 13 than 15. So to complain about his defence at 15 and then advocate he should play 13 is an example of someone not agreeing with themself

I completely disagree. At 15, he struggles with his defensive decision making, he's got to track and engage the runner who is often in acres of space and he get's it wrong. Defending at 13 isn't like that generally. But this is painful so I'll just say it, he's also a shit defender at 13. There we are.

He's got more space to cover at 15, more options to cover at 13. Either way he can get into a bit of a I'm happy with him in the side, and happier he's at 15 than 13, and I say that knowing our current 13 isn't exactly solid in defence

[Oakboy]

In today's DT, Healey preaches the Banquoism that defending the OC channel is the hardest area. I only know that I never feel comfortable with our defence when 10/12/13 is Ford/Farrell/Tuilagi.

I have fewer issues with Daly at 15 even though I'd not pick him there. It seems to me that he does his defensive job adequately most of the time IF he has not been hung out to dry by team-mates in front of him.

[Mellsblue]

I only know that I never feel comfortable with our defence when 10/12/13 is Ford/Farrell/Tuilagi.

Why? What is your preferred lineup?

[Mikey Brown]

Oh god. Don't.

[Adam_P]

[Mikey Brown]

Saw that the other day. One of the top comments was "at a loss of only 20 metres per tackle."

[p/d]

In today's DT, Healey preaches the Banquoism that defending the OC channel is the hardest area. I only know that I never feel comfortable with our defence when 10/12/13 is Ford/Farrell/Tuilagi.

I have fewer issues with Daly at 15 even though I'd not pick him there. It seems to me that he does his defensive job adequately most of the time IF he has not been hung out to dry by team-mates in front of him.

He is all over the shop. A player learning on the test arena.

[Mellsblue]

Ha! I saw that and thought of posting it. I also saw Farrell fly out of the line creating the dogleg that lead to Kerevi’s break, which Tuilagi was blamed for, and Oz’s three points just before halftime.

[Mellsblue]

Saw that the other day. One of the top comments was "at a loss of only 20 metres per tackle."

Bend, with Ford, or occasionally break, with Farrell?

[Mellsblue]

If we can engineer it so Barrett catches a high-ball with Lawes and Underhill coming at him from either side then we might be good. Seems pretty risky if not.

Our kicks are well-chased on far too few occasions. If, if, if the two Fs are as good at kicking as is claimed then the opposition FB is often gifted the ball unchallenged as a matter of policy. I think that is mega-risky if the FB is Barrett and the opposition is as good in attack as NZ.

The ‘tactic’ obviously comes with the caveat of the kick being a contested up and under rather than a kick for territory.

Just so Digblue gets to quote themselves again.....
I’ve been looking for a graphic from a previous edition of the times and stumbled across the fact that one of the pundits to advocate this tactic was Mr Andrew Mehrtens.
Edit: and Ben Ryan.